is 2009 a weak vintage?

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JimHow
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by JimHow »

I was just answering your question seeking examples of left bankers with 1% to 2% higher alcohol levels, Jeff.
A quick review of Parker's notes on the 2009 and 2010 indicates that there are, in fact, many left bank wines in the 14+% range.
Let me try to frame the question more constructively:
Does the fact that the La Missions out there are coming in at 15.1% raise any concerns with you Jeff?
Obviously, regardless of how much one loves high alcohol wines, at some point there is a tipping point.
Is there any concern that Bordeaux is going too far in its striving for sweetness and ripeness and extraction, or are you comfortable that they are getting it just right and the future is bright in Bordeaux.
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Rudi Finkler
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Rudi Finkler »

JimHow wrote:Rudi, we know Americans love the sweetness of these 14%-16% "Bordeaux" wines.
What has been the reaction in Europe?
The reaction here... incomprehension and a hint of mockery...
"So sind sie, die Amerikaner." :roll:
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edj33446
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by edj33446 »

I am getting used to the pundits touting vintages that I buy and then wondering when I will enjoy them. Like many here, I prefer more balanced wines that develop complexity as the structure recedes. I bought over 6 mixed cases of 2004 and I have been pleasantly surprised by their balance and medium to full fruit. I bought somme 2006 and 2008. I bought too much 2009. I think 2010 will turn out quite fine. My daughter was born in 2011 and I bought a 4-5 cases of the better rated 2nds and below. I hope they will be good.

In 2006, I didn't buy enough. I have some of these but I won't open them yet. I prefer opening some 1998, 2000, 2001 and 2003 Bordeaux wines, right now. I wish I had more 1996 and earlier vintages, as the 80's Bordeaux wines have provided great pleasure to our group.

2006 Château Beau-Séjour Bécot St. Émilion
2006 Clos Les Lunelles
2006 Château La Croix St. Georges (Pomerol)
2006 Château Lagrange (St. Julien)
2006 Château Montrose St. Estèphe
2006 Château de Pez St. Estèphe
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JimHow
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by JimHow »

Have you had a chance to try that 2006 Montrose yet edj? I was thinking of buying a couple bottles at $85.
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Chateau Vin
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Chateau Vin »

JimHow wrote:Rudi, we know Americans love the sweetness of these 14%-16% "Bordeaux" wines.
What has been the reaction in Europe?
Exactly...Americans are late in the game in terms of wine drinking compared to the Europeans, and most of the American drinkers haven't even had a chance to taste a lower alc mature bordeaux or even for that matter not even have an idea what lower alc wine tastes like...Unfortunately US has become a bigger market, and that's the way the bordelaise are going. But hopefully the quality improves even more.

I am interested to see how these 2000s develop in a decade or so...Over time, fruit can stay put or recede, tannins can remain or fade, but alc remains the same and wonder in a decade or so what the jury would say on these 2000s esp the ones with high alc ones...
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Jeff Leve
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Jeff Leve »

JimHow wrote:Does the fact that the La Missions out there are coming in at 15.1% raise any concerns with you Jeff?
Having tasted the wine in barrel and in bottle... No. What concerns me more are people that judge a wine based on numbers without having tasted it to decide if they like it or not. FWIW, In both 2009 and 2010, I preferred Haut Brion. If I had the money, I would have bought the wine.

There is no problem with liking any wine or wine style over another. But people, and this includes you, should actually taste a wine before deciding if you like it or not. As a lawyer, isn't that tantamount to the jury deciding a case before it was even tried?

FWIW, if you have a problem with wine based on alcohol levels, if you still want to buy Bordeaux, look for 2001, 2002, 2004, 2007, 2008, 2011, 2012 & 2013. In part, higher alcohol levels are due to the desire for phenolically ripe fruit, but it is also vintage driven.
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JimHow
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by JimHow »

I've tasted many wines from 2009, Jeff, just because they are not your Ferrari wines doesn't mean I don't have a right to an opinion. I have tasted many great wines from the past century, and even some from the century before that. I have tasted many top names from this century. I have my opinion and certainly will not apologize to you or anyone else. It is hardly an opinion that is some absurd idea of which we have never heard. According to Rudi, most of the continent of Europe disagrees with you rather than me. As I mentioned recently, a guy named PappaDoc, whose opinion I value far more than yours and who has probably tasted about 10,000 more wines than you, was the first early on to express concerns that 2009 was weak. When he said that, I took notice. My experience with a couple dozen or so highly rated Parker wines from 2009 leads me to conclude that PappaDoc is more in tune with the quality of these wines than you. You can insult me all you want for feeling that way, but that's my honest opinion about 2009. I know you don't like it, but that's the way it goes. As for your whole "lawyer" argument, well, I'm just a country lawyer from Maine, so I'm not as sophisticated as someone like you from Hollywood, so you'll just have to take that into account.
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Jeff Leve
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Jeff Leve »

Jim... I do not care what someone else thinks.. Papa Doc or Rudi or... I taste wines and decide all on my own based simply on what is in the bottle. I know that seems like a novel concept to you. But each wine is different. You cannot extraplote what 2009 Haut Brion tastes like from trying 2009 Haut Bergey. To be clear, you are welcome to your view. But for the list of wines you mentioned, you are basing your view on nothing but numbers. That is my sole point.

FWIW, in Europe, 2010 is more popular than 2009. In many cases, 2010 is higher in alcohol, but it's also higher in acidity and tannin, firmer and less generous.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by JimHow »

The reason why I mentioned PD and Rudi is to point out that my concerns about high alcohol etc. are hardly some strange theory from another planet. There are many people out there who have concerns about the direction of Bordeaux. I too base my opinions solely on my own tasting experiences. That's why I'm not afraid to say I like 2002 and 2006, because for my taste those styles of wines appeal to me. When I agree with Parker I say so, when I disagree I'm also not afraid to say so. I think I've had all of two 2010s so far -- Vrai Canon Bouche and Cantemerle -- both of which I liked a lot more than their 2009 counterparts. Maybe 2010 will in fact be a "JimHow Kind of Vintage," despite the 15.1% alcohol levels.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Rudi Finkler »

Jeff, for a traditionalist like me, the demarcation line is 13,5/14 % Alcohol. That is a fact, and no subject to negotiation. Despite all differences of perception, knowledge, taste, and opinion, the influence of higher alcohol on brain is another than the influence of lower alcohol levels...
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Jeff Leve
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Jeff Leve »

Rudi Finkler wrote:Jeff, for a traditionalist like me, the demarcation line is 13,5/14 % Alcohol. That is a fact, and no subject to negotiation. Despite all differences of perception, knowledge, taste, and opinion, the influence of higher alcohol on brain is another than the influence of lower alcohol levels...
I cannot play all day today. I have actual work to do. I need to make money so I can afford all these wines I love to drink. My only comment on this, are you saying you can drink as much wine as possible when it is lower in alcohol? Seriously? I think the math on higher alcohol wines shows that the difference is at most, silghtly less than one more glass per bottle. So the average 12.5 ABV bottle delivers 4-6 glasses, with higher in ABV wines, you get 5-7 glasses. I suppose if you are drinking multiple bottles on your own, that will be an issue But assuming you are sharing, there is not that much difference.

OK, back to work... This is taking far too much of my time this morning.
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Rudi Finkler
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Rudi Finkler »

No problem, Jeff… I mainly thought about the immadiate influence of higher or lower levels of alcohol degrees... It’s no secret that alcohol has an immediate impact on the central nervous system and an immediate physiological impact on the brain. Alcohol produces happy feelings in a minimum of time. The acceptance of this influence varies from person to person.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Comte Flaneur »

An interesting and entertaining discussion.

I asked this question some time ago. Why are alcohol levels generally so much higher in Bordeaux these days? Is it to do with the yeasts they use? Even in lesser vintages alcohol levels seem to be higher than back in the old days when 12.5% was the norm.

As a European I am uneasy about the inexorable rise in alcohol levels, but if there is a valid reason for it - which would not include the desire to 'sex up' wines for American palates - my concerns might be assuaged. I generally prefer to drink the wines without first looking at the alcohol levels. It is only when I get that spirity or burning sensation at the back of my throat that I tend to take a look.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by robert goulet »

Jeff I say this because at 2010 premiers pichon baron was a big smack u in the face/most fruit forward wine of the tasting....nothing like the more elegant, reserved styles I have enjoyed/preferred over the past year '89 and '00 twice each

As for la grave a pomerol 2010 is now 14.5% alcohol...also tasted the '09 twice and it just does not have that classic feel that I enjoyed like the breathtaking '98 which I would score 94/95 points...the '09(supposed great vintage) i feel will never come close

Granted we will c what age can do but I'm just not optomistic
Last edited by robert goulet on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by robert goulet »

Purchased today!!! 2005 sociando and '08 Alter ego....both 13% alcohol...no wonder I love them so :)
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by JimHow »

I love the 2005 Sociando.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Nicklasss »

Ah 2005, the real ''great vintage'' of the 2000's. Homogeneity in 2005. In 15 years, you'll remember i said it first or not?

Nic
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by JimHow »

I don't know what to make of 2005. At first I liked it, then I didn't like it, now some of the wines I've had recently have shown well with a little age under their belt. I realize you can say that about a lot of vintages but the hibernation period for the '05s has seemed extra rough to me... in my admittedly limited experience.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

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I find myself being pulled unwillingly toward Jim's opinion of 2009. (Unwillingly because I hope for vintages to be good). I went long on Grand Puy Lacoste which I routinely buy in good vintages, and it was really disappointing -- here is my Cellartracker note:
Rather disappointed in this wine. I love GPL for its classical style, but this was clumsy and excessively alcoholic. Pitch black color. Rich and heady scent that lacks nuance. Flavors of fig paste, leather, sweet jammy fruit, and alcohol. Very thick and black-fruited. Lacks balance and elegance. Also, the alcohol level is way higher than the label figure of 13.5 -- got to be flirting with 15. Definitely goes to your head. Doesn't handle its alcohol or volume as well as even some of the 'fruit bomb' right bank wines from 2009 that normally work in this kind of style. Perhaps the year got away from them.

I'm not sure this is the kind of issue that works itself out with aging. GPL is normally a wine I go long on and I have over half a case of this left, maybe I need to work out a way to sell or trade it. If you like this style you will like it better than I did -- my partner enjoys Amarone and Port and she appreciated this wine a lot more than I. But don't come to it expecting a graceful left bank Bordeaux.
Vieille Cure was a terrible wine. Pichon Baron was good in a sense -- a huge wine with tons of everything -- but I preferred the 2008 Pichon which was much more harmonious and showed better balance, more moderation, and more refreshment value. Canon La Gaffeliere was good in its way but lacked Bordeaux typicity, it could have been a high-end California meritage blend. Again lacked real refreshment value. I did like Meyney (good bargain) and Gruaud Larose but all of the 2009s I've had have been notably heavy even when their style was contained enough to work (as it did for the Meyney and the Gruaud). I'm avoiding the vintage now.

BTW, these are all wines I have actually drunk -- as in, drunk a bottle over dinner -- not taken a sip of at a tasting and stopwatched the 'finish'.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by marcs »

Also, Jeff's statement re 'ripeness' is a frequent Parker line and something I find illogical. Who decided that grapes were 'ripe' for winemaking purposes when they were maximally sugary short of being raisined or rotten? (And I'm not so sure that some modern 'ripe' wines aren't a bit raisined). Who decided sugars were more important than acids in making a good wine?
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by jal »

Best

Jacques
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by marcs »

Hi Jacques -- so you wrote that other CT note trashing the 09 GPL! As you can tell from my note, I totally understand where you were coming from, but I actually gave it 88 points, I found it very disappointing but it had a lot of stuffing and some people would like it, it wasn't a total mess.

I differ from some in those other threads you linked in that I don't think GPL went to hell post-1996. In fact, I think the 2005 GPL is a flat out great wine. Tremendous structure, perfect balance, combines elegance with depth and force. (And still available under $100). For me, a bit of a benchmark wine actually -- a poster child for what Bordeaux can do with modern size and classical structure. It won't fully mature for a while yet of course, but every bottle I've had has given a delicious preview of coming attractions. Worth trying even now.

That's why I was so disappointed in the 09. I believe in what GPL can do in the modern era. I think 09 is just a hot year.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by jal »

I am a harsh scorer, for me it was a "do not put in mouth" experience.
Best

Jacques
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by robert goulet »

Speaking of gpl i really like the '10 line up...esp. lacoste borie(more classic)a steal...and haut batailley...a bit more new world but silky and sexy...and gpl great structure for the haul
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by marcs »

LOL. It's true I'm looking for some way to unload my remaining bottles. If I could get someone willing to trade 2005s for the 2009 I would love it.

I suspect I will like the 2010 better.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by tiesface »

This looks like a fun thread to bump. Is there any development of the 2009s?

More importantly - is there any way to drag Jeff Leve back here? I'm particularly curious where the 2016s fit into this debate. They have been lauded by the media for their lower alcohol levels compared to '09/'10 (and '15), but Jeff absolutely raves about them - what gives? He is on record saying it is the best vintage in Pauillac ever. Personally, it sounds like a real tiesface vintage.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by JimHow »

Me too tiesface.
I haven't followed Jeff's notes on the 2016 vintage but I'm curious to hear what that old right bank lover has to say about it...
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by tiesface »

Here are some classic Jeff Leve snippets from a couple of beloved Pauillacs:

2016 Lynch Bages
4/29/2017 - JEFF LEVE WROTE: 97 Points
Powerful, concentrated and long and with depth of flavor, this wine is rich and fat, like someone wearing a gold Rolex and a diamond pinkie ring. There is a refined, stern, masculine quality to the fruit with a finish that lasts and sustains the layers of fresh, sweet black currants. This is probably the best Lynch Bages since 1989/1990. Produced from 75% Cabernet Sauvignon, 19% Merlot, 4% Cabernet Franc and 2% Petit Verdot, this wine is aging in 75% new French oak barrels. Reaching 13.4% alcohol with a pH of 3.69, the picking took place September 28 to October 12 and the Grand Vin represents 65% of the harvest.

2016 Pichon Lalande
4/29/2017 - JEFF LEVE WROTE: 99 Points
Rich in color, you find that the espresso, cigar box, tobacco, spice, forest floor, blackberry, cassis, lead pencil and dark red fruits make an incredible perfume. Pure silk and velvet, this is so sexy, it’s off the charts. Opulent, in fact, decadent, this wine tastes and feels so majestic I drank it all! This is the best vintage since the stunning 1982 and that is really saying something. Made from a blend of 75% Cabernet Sauvignon, 21% Merlot and 4% Cabernet Franc, it reached 13.32% alcohol with a pH of 3.76. The harvest took place September 20 to October 20. 98-100 Pts

Is this vintage only "classic" compared to vintages like '09?
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JimHow
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by JimHow »

The thing that I'm finding most enticing about 2016 from the random reports I've been seeing:
1) It seems to be a Medoc vintage?
2) The alcohol levels have moderated?

Does any of this have to do with the fact that He Who Shall Remain Nameless retired several years back?
Or is this just some sort of happenstance?
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Comte Flaneur
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Comte Flaneur »

It is definitely true Jim. We were sitting next to Neal Martin at a burgundy lunch on Friday, and he confirmed there really has been a big sea change away from making big extracted, high alcohol wines in Bordeaux. He also confirmed that Gerard Perse had ordered such a change in style at Pavie. Likewise Bernard Magrez at Pape Clement. Parkerised wines have probably had their day, though a handful of St-Emilion estates still hang on to that style according to NM. Neal pondered out loud what 'Bob' would make of the 2016 vintage, one which NM rates as the most exciting he has ever tasted out of barrel. Parker himself who turns 70 this year has not been very active because of a back operation which has immobilised him. Let's hope he makes a full recovery and gets back to work. Like him or not he has been by far the most influential wine critic.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by AKR »

Comte Flaneur wrote:It is definitely true Jim. We were sitting next to Neal Martin at a burgundy lunch on Friday, and he confirmed there really has been a big sea change away from making big extracted, high alcohol wines in Bordeaux. He also confirmed that Gerard Perse had ordered such a change in style at Pavie. Likewise Bernard Magrez at Pape Clement. Parkerised wines have probably had their day, though a handful of St-Emilion estates still hang on to that style according to NM. Neal pondered out loud what 'Bob' would make of the 2016 vintage, one which NM rates as the most exciting he has ever tasted out of barrel. Parker himself who turns 70 this year has not been very active because of a back operation which has immobilised him. Let's hope he makes a full recovery and gets back to work. Like him or not he has been by far the most influential wine critic.
Parkers health seems to have really deteriorated fast. One cue to that was that when there was some chatter of that over on the WB board, the staff at the WA chimed in fast to say that he has never been healthier or more energetic etc. something like that. "Lady doth protest too much" syndrome.

The WA's 'new' guy (Joe Cz) covering the Rhone is someone who used to be part of our NYC tasting group many years ago, and a terrific guy. He's also been a professional critic for a long time at many peer magazines, so this isn't his first ride at the rodeo. Although some So. Rhone estates had big style changes, and loaded up on the tete du cuvee fad, I think in general the region was less afflicted.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by AKR »

ComteFlaneur

Could the estate owners really be saying - make a wine that is best for the conditions we have this year?

If the vintage had lots of rain in the beginning, and none on the back end, perhaps pushing for the highest brix isn't going to work.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by stefan »

Getting back to the original question....

At lunch today Lucie was not drinking, so I drank a glass of 2009 Larose-Trintaudon, a wine I bought for playing poker. It is a solid basic Cru Bourgeois that has a firm mid palate, inviting nose, good fruit, and tannins that are nearly resolved. Last night Lucie and I drank the first bottle from our case of 2002 Lynch-Bages. It is a good Pauillac that has currants and cassis flavors, a good mid palate, but the finish is short and secondary characteristics have not yet developed even if the tannins are completely resolved. The Lynch-Bages is better, although I can imagine many would prefer the Larose-Trintaudon. The current low WineSearcher Pro price of the L-B is $97, while I paid $16 for the L-T 4 months ago.

Tentative Conclusions:

1. The price of the famous Bordeaux estates is out of all proportion to their quality.

2. 2009 is a good vintage for lesser Bordeaux.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by brodway »

[*]2009 is a good vintage for lesser Bordeaux.

Stefan

i find that to be true for all recent vintages.....non classified growths are making very good wines these days...the other day Arv posted a Sociando selling $27 per case...that is same price (or less) we paid for the 1996.....that's QPR hard to beat.
i'm seeing a number of 2014 2015 and 2016 vintages offering superb values in this price range. California is taking a back seat to the lesser Bordeaux blends for the less heralded names
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Claudius2 »

Folks,
I am not a fan of high alcohol wine and I don't really care les where it comes from.
Read my notes on Barossa shiraz with 18.5% alcohol and you will no doubt note that I don't fancy that types of wine.
A lot of Bordeaux and partlcularly the right bank are pushing the boundaries of alcohol.
Once it reaches 14.5% I am worried. That goes for any and every grape variety and the same for regions.

Can I say this. Australian Shiraz from warm climates like the Hunter, Barossa and McLaren Vale was 12-13% when I was younger and rarely over that range.
The wines were not thick, tannic and sweetish monsters, but medium bodied and savoury.
And I have had Hunter reds that were 50 years old and they were amazing (well, at least those without ruined corks).

On the point of 2009, the few I have tried have been pretty good - but I have only tried a few top wines like Clinet (masses of everything) and Lafleur (same again).
The cheaper wines are a bit mixed based on a few tastings I have gone to, and some were downright awful. I would never have picked some as Bordeaux.
Yet I have to say the lesser wines in 2005 and 2010 are better based on the limited selection I have tried.
The few 2005's and 2010's I have drunk recently have been excellent.

My theory (rather than a conclusion) is that 2009 is an outstanding vintage at the top level, but not as consistently good in the lower to middle range as 2005 or 2010.
By the way, I have about 15 cases of 2009's in the storage unit so I am really hoping that they turn out well.

Now, for Sociando Mallet, this is no longer a wine I follow.
The 82, 86, 90 and 96 were all excellent wines and I have to say I liked the 96 the best.
A really "cool" wine in a nice way - long, mineral, elegant, good cabernet fruit and crisp aftertaste.
A few more recent vintages I have tried (2000 to 2004) were pretty ordinary with overtly green, astringent characters.
So it is off my list of favourites for now.
Did not try the 2009 but I stopped buying it a decade ago.
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AKR
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by AKR »

I liked the 2003 S-M way more than other vintages, other than maybe 1990.

However I've not purchased any post 2010.

I'm not sure why, but I seem to get more inconsistency from my bottles as time goes on.

And it doesn't seem like a one time only issue.

Who's knows.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by DavidG »

Mark, I'm shifting gradually towards less tolerance of the super-ripe high alcohol wines, and I agree it doesn't seem to matter whether they are from Bordeaux, Barossa, the Rhone or California. I too have a passel of 2009 Bordeaux and hope they turn out well.

Arv, I guess you would say your experience with Sociando is that it is consistently inconsistent. At least you can depend on that.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by Nicklasss »

If it helps, the 2009 Chateau Léoville Poyferré last Saturday was just a not far from brilliant young Saint-Julien. It was having everything I like in Médoc red: intensity and definition on the nose, complexity in mouth, balance, oak hidding in the rest, graphite, meat, fruits, spices, oak, light roasred something, structure, length... An impressive young wine now, that will be even more impressive in 10-15 years.

Nothing weak in that 2009. A genuine great year Saint-Julien, that you will not take for a Saint-Estephe or Pauillac or Margaux.

Nic
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by DavidG »

This made me go back to Jim's first post, where he questioned the quality of the entire vintage based on a single bottle of Sociando. Just as that single poor experience is hardly representative, neither is a single great bottle. But I'm very happy to read of your excellent experience, Nic, as it matches my hopes for the bottles I've got resting in the cellar. And it's 14% ABV, so I guess it IS possible for wines with that much alcohol to not suck.
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Re: is 2009 a weak vintage?

Post by DavidG »

So I opened a 2009 Cantemerle. The bottle says 13% ABV. After 2-3 hours it's showing a nose of dark fruits, tobacco and earth. Medium body, ripe fruit, good balance and finish. Still young but giving a lot of pleasure. Excellent. Some modern and some traditional characteristics. Not weak or thin. Glad I've got more.
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