Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

2008 Latour is going for 110 euros a bottle (price to négociants).
45% less than last year.

The other first should come out by the end of the week.

Alex R.

It is significantly higher than the en-primeur price of 2004, but latour was one of the few wines which sold well in that campaign.

Hopefully for the Bordelais it will sell well again and can help turn the very bad and negative atmosphere around. I just hope that if it sells well, that other wineries remember that they need a greater gap with their price versus the price of Latour than they applied in 2004 if they want to sell their 2008 vintage. (and not price their wines too high yet again)

ChrisW

AlexR wrote:2008 Latour is going for 110 euros a bottle (price to négociants).

I heard of 140€ / bottle to négociants for Latour?

Here's the Decanter article: http://www.decanter.com/news/news.php?id=280569

Mouton's out at half the price of the '07 at 100 euro a bottle.

Alex

One interesting note:

Christian Moueix, who released prices from some of his properties including Chateau Hosana and La Fleur Petrus last week to private clients, said he hoped an early campaign would 'help the whole of Bordeaux'.

I wonder what it takes to be one of those private clients???

Alex, can I put you on the spot and ask what you think about the 6, 7 and 8 vintages?

I'm thinking of buying a few bottles of the Latour (assuming that it indeed comes out at about 150 euro for the consumer). Anybody else interested in buying some 2008 primeurs?

Elmo,

I think that the Latour will be a little bit more expensive (more like EUR 170-180 all-in).

At that price I'll not be buying any. I think that there are better wines for that money. Additionally, I own quite a lot of Bordeaux wines already including many bottles of first growths which I've bought in the past for lower prices than the 2008 en-primeur price of Latour and Mouton. This makes it probably more difficult for me to get very enthusiastic about this price and pull the buying trigger, than someone who is not sitting on much bordeaux bought at lower prices.

Robert Parker apparently thinks that the price for Latour is a very fair price and has mentioned that he expected the price to be higher.

So far I've bought a few bottles of Leoville Barton 2008 and do not think that I'll be buying a lot more en-primeur. This is not a vintage that will be much more expensive on release or 5 years further down the line and purchasing at a later stage provides many benefits, including knowledge of the quality and price of subsequent vintages. For example, people who have bought 2006 and 2007 en-primeur will now probably feel very unhappy about these purchases.

ChrisW

I just got an email from a local auction house/retailer in the Chicago area - The Chicago Wine Company - offering some 2008 first growths:

Mouton - $199.50
Margaux - $219.50
Lafute - $219.50

Also, L'Evangile and Angelus at $99.50.

Jon

ChrisW,

Sure, it's easy to pass if you've got a cellar full of FGs. However, I am only collecting since '05 and as you "may know", the FGs were a bit more expensive in the primeur campaign back then. Seeing them now, for apparently a good vintage with some very good FGs, for a quarter or a fifth of the price of back in 2006 really makes me think about buying some. Fortunately, my kids were born in '05, '07 and '09, so I don't have to go all-in for the 2008 wines.

Prices are all relative....

Oh, and I did buy about 10 cases in each of the 2006 and 2007 primeur campains. Maybe I can now get them a bit cheaper if i was to look for them. Does this bother me? No, actually now. At least I now know that I have what I want for the prices that I am comfortable with ('07 Sauternes anyone?). Example: I paid 40 euro/bottle for 2007 Guiraud and 30 euro/bottle for 2006 Clos du Marquis. That seems acceptable to me, and I have perfect providence.

Plus, for me, the primeur vendor that I use gives me the added benifit of 'no hassle': I place my order with the company that I've been using for years, don't have to worry about anything, they take care of delivery of my wines anytime in the next xx years that i may choose to have them delivered. Until then, they stay in their refectly controlled cellars. That kind of luxury is worth money too.

Elmo,

Prices are indeed relative.

I started buying Bordeaux wines a few years earlier, but at that time prices were already much higher than what they were several years before that. I'm sure that many people, especially those longer involved in wine buying, will think that I paid too much for my purchases just as I think that prices of 2008 Bordeaux are still too high (not even to mention the prices for 2006/07).

It's just that in today's market there are so many great opportunities for buying great wine, that even if I would not have 1500 bottles of Bordeaux already in my cellar and would start with an empty basement, I still would not buy much Bordeaux en-primeur.

Over the last months, I've for example bought several cases of Pichon Baron 2000, Grand Mayne 1989/1990/1998 and several other well-stored wines from better and more mature years than 06/07/08 for very acceptable prices which will make buying 2008's difficult to justify. I only buy a bit of Sauternes en-primeur in years such as 2007 to obtain some half bottles, but would never consider buying larger quantitities of Sauternes of regular bottle sizes at the strongly inflated en-primeur prices of sauternes as we have seen over the last 4 years. This stuff is virtually indestructable and older great vintages such as 1990 and 2001 can be had for similar or lower prices than today's en-primeur prices. Good vintages such as 1999 can be had for much less at auctions or for example in the foire aux vins of French supermarkets, often in between EUR 20 and 25,- for wines such as Guiraud.

Another reason why I would want to buy less en-primeur is that by buying only young Bordeaux you run the risk that by the time these bottles enter their drinking windows you may conclude that you have collected too much Bordeaux given your evolved wine preferences. Personally, my wine interests have diversified considerably over the last years and I'm not sure if I'm still as happy with the 100+ bottles I've bought of 2002 Bordeaux en-primeur as I was at the time of purchase. Of course I can sell some of these bottles and trade them for great Spanish, Italian and Rhone wines, but still, that is not why I would have bought them.

ChrisW

If I were in the market for young Bordeaux, these prices would have me tempted. FGs at $200, Angelus at $100. Sure it's relative and may be too high still for many to justify, given accessibility/relative value of other great wines, personal preferences and needs, etc. Chris, you've made some great arguments, including that the wines are likely to remain available down the road. But I think these prices may bring some people back to buying Bordeaux.

At Mark Squires' board, someone (not me) was able to almost perfectly articulate my feelings:

S. Lorin wrote:the conversation here is mostly about the big players, speculators, large buyers and gives the dizzying feel of a trading pit...
think of it from the average Joe's standpoint (aka "Joe the Wino")...

hes young, has some disposable income, only is looking at pricing over the past 5-10 years of Latour and for the first time is able to buy a Latour (a likely 90+ wine), for under $200...doesnt know how to navigate or trust the auction system for older bottles to sample...hes looking to buy 3-6 bottles for that special occassion down the road...regardless whether there are better 2nd or 3rd growths out there, Latour being the luxury item it is, will provide that memorable moment (regardless of whether he will like it or not)...

maybe it will fall down in price but for the small player probably not significant...

this is tempting...

--- Scott

That's me: Joe the Wino. Except I'm called Elmo...

So the Premier Cru email just came in entitled "Surprising Prices" for the 2008s, $210 for Lafite and latour, $200 for Margaux, $190 for Mouton. $60 for Pichon lalande. I remember paying $52 for the 1995 in 1997, so that's an interesting price. The first growths, though, are still priced 100% higher than the $100 I paid for the excellent 2002 Lafite and Mouton, after they hit the shelves back in 2004.

My question, though, is: Are these wines any good?

Jim, there seems to be general enthusiasm for the quality of the 2008 Bordeaux, but other than Otto's notes I have not seen detailed wine-by-wine reports, just general impressions and a few comments about or from one or two properties. There may be more detailed notes out there from other critics - I haven't been looking because I'm not really in the market. And of course the Grand Poobah has yet to speak.

Here are some of the general comments gleaned elsewhere. I just don't think you can draw any conclusions without specific TNs from palates you know.

Robert Parker: "May, June, and August had above normal rainfall....but July was drought-like,September was way under the normal rainfall, and October,when the harvest took place, was relatively dry...with below normal rainfall....overall...2008 had a deficit of precipitation... at least 10-20%(depending which weather station you check-right bank or left bank) than a "normal" year of precipitation...and...it was also sunnier..."hours of sunshine" than a normal year...with huge increases over the "norm" for September and October..."

Ben Giliberti (Wash Post wine critic, in reply): "Regardless of the "averages" of rain and sunshine, lets not lose sight that 08 was a difficult vintage in terms of weather. August and early September were gray and damp, ripening was uneven and mildew threatened the grapes. The likelihood that you will get a lot of great wines after problems in that critical period is rather low. That said, the proof is ultimately what's in the bottle, which remains to be seen, over time."

Sounds interesting, David, at those prices I'll probably add a bottle maybe two of Lafite to my collection. It'll be interesting to see what NH comes out with for prices.

Lafite is my favorite Pauillac. Pichon Lalande is my second favorite. '08 Lafite is more than three times the price of Comtesse. For me this is a no brainer if I decide to buy top end '08 Pauillac (which I probably will not).

stefan

Looking around a little more, there appear to be some very positive reviews on the '08 Bordeaux, if you believe in the early barrel tasting reports. WS and Decanter have ratings out.