NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

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AlexR
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NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by AlexR »

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/27/dinin ... ottom-well

In which two parts got my goat:

"Contrary to its image, Bordeaux is not necessarily an old-fashioned, humorless place. Yes, the chateaus that adorn the Médoc landscape connote a sense of stately permanence, just as the corporate marketers in their Hermès ties and Gucci loafers exude single-minded commerce".

Mr. Asimov may be well acquainted with the great growths of the Médoc, but he surely is not well-acquainted with Bordeaux...

He also wites: "“It’s just for fun,” Mr. Duroux said. Bordeaux can use more of that".

So, the Bordelais are a bunch of constipated, spoiled, bourgeois sons-of-bitches then?
I think not...
Sure, people take wine seriously.
But don't they in other fine wine producing régions?

Best regards,
Alex R.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Yes crass
Crap journalism from a crap hack.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

Comte Flaneur wrote:Yes crass
Crap journalism from a crap hack.
I cannot disagree with you more. Asimov is an excellent journalist, writes extremely well, and has an excellent palate. The Palmer article does a good job in describing what Palmer is doing now, making interesting wines, and not afraid to experiment. The whimsy that Asimov talks about is certainly there, and Duroux is probably less corporate than most. I don't see a lot of whimsy in Bordeaux, it is a most professional business environment in general.

I think the sideswipes and generalizations are interesting, but they reflect a certain attitude that the wines are first and foremost a business,and need to be sold. Well it's a harsh generalization, and I am sure both Alex and I can point to a large number of winemakers who don't conform to the image, it has to be said there is a grain of truth in it. Every time I move from Burgundy to Bordeaux, I am struck the difference between them. It's perhaps a little cliched to say that Bordeaux is less hands on by the owner, while in Burgundy the proprietor is the one getting his hands dirty in the vineyard and the cellar. Definitely much more characteristic of the left bank, which is the commercial center of the business, and hardly surprising given the size of the estates. They have a lot of wine to sell each year, and the last three years have not been kind. And, of course, while owners tend to flit in and out for the journalists, much of the business is left in the hands of professional managers. Most of them are excellent, many of them are fun to be with, but lurking there is a always the sense you are dealing with somebody who is executing a business plan.

I love Bordeaux, I love the wines, I love the commerce part of it, and seeing how they deal with the challenges each year brings. Will they bring prices down of 2013 to 2008 levels? How will they repair their reputations in the American markets, having focused so long in China? How do the sell a very mediocre vintage like 2013? I know well when I visit that there is a dance going on, and I am knowingly part of it. I have learned to look at the unspoken signals; and I look for what is not said. There is one manager who has a "leap" to his step when he loves a wine, he was not leaping with the 2010, and tasting the wine, we could see why.

Bordeaux is a complicated place, because there is a large number of forces at work, and whimsy at the chateau is a little limited. There is humor, and most people realize how lucky being in the wine business. But I think Palmer is a little off kilter, and all the better for it.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by DavidG »

Well, most of the owners do it to make money. Some, perhaps most, love the work. But I would guess that only occasionally is money secondary to love of the work. Even then most of them need to make money to stay afloat. Unless they are following the time-worn mantra of making a small fortune in the wine industry by starting with a large fortune.

Interesting Burgundy/Bordeaux comparison, Mark. It brought to mind the following (in good old SAT question format):
Bordeaux:Burgundy as Napa:Sonoma ???

My only visit to Burgundy was at Bouchard, and while it was a welcoming and wonderful experience and not at all uptight, it was more formal than dirt-under-the-fingernails. But that's only one place.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

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DavidG wrote:Well, most of the owners do it to make money. Some, perhaps most, love the work. But I would guess that only occasionally is money secondary to love of the work. Even then most of them need to make money to stay afloat. Unless they are following the time-worn mantra of making a small fortune in the wine industry by starting with a large fortune.

Interesting Burgundy/Bordeaux comparison, Mark. It brought to mind the following (in good old SAT question format):
Bordeaux:Burgundy as Napa:Sonoma ???

My only visit to Burgundy was at Bouchard, and while it was a welcoming and wonderful experience and not at all uptight, it was more formal than dirt-under-the-fingernails. But that's only one place.

I think the negotiants by definition are at the business end of Burgundy.

I agree they all do it to make money, but perhaps a more apt simile is a supermarket versus a small Mom and Pop store. The one uses all the marketing and business tools, while the other, which doesn't have the same resources, uses what they think will work
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by AlexR »

Mark,

I won’t quarrel with the part of the article that deals with Palmer as such. It’s pretty good journalism. It’s the tiresome generalizations that annoyed me.

When you say that you “don't see a lot of whimsy in Bordeaux, it is a most professional business environment in general”, I’m afraid I must climb on my hobby horse and ask: which Bordeaux are we talking about? I visited Château Haut Macô in the Côtes de Bourg on Saturday. These people there are real salt of the earth. No bling bling at all. No press kits, fancy clothes, and multilingual managers. The wine’s very good and costs under 7.50 euros a bottle. The people there are really no different than a family of winegrowers in Meursault or Nuits-Saint-Georges. They are open, direct, genuine, and don’t put spin on anything.
But the foreign journalists all want to visit the top crus classés and this blinds them to the far greater reality of Bordeaux.
There, I’ve said it :-).

How can you compare Bordeaux to Burgundy? The scales are so vastly different, as you say! I, too, fall for the charm of a visit to a Burgundian winegrower who greets you after stepping off his tractor. But this is simply impossible at estates in Bordeaux, some of which are larger than entire appellations in the Côte d’Or! A different sort of organization is necessarily called for. But the passion for wine is still there! It’s just different…

Making wine is bloody hard work. I don’t know any wine region where people are whimsical about it. Bon vivants, yes, but whimsical? How whimsical are Coche-Dury or Roumier?

That having been said, yes, there is a more formal side to Bordeaux *at a certain level* - the only one that many foreign visitors see - where people are well-travelled and more sophisticated than in Burgundy. Less down to earth, for sure. So, yes, there is a grain of truth in the image.
And anyone who has lived here can tell a few anecdotes about dinners with the bourgeoisie bordelaise…
I could name a few names that correspond to the stereotypical image, and I’m sure you’d instantly agree.
But it’s a question of l'arbre qui cache la forêt (not seeing the wood for the trees).

Best regards,
Alex R.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Comte Flaneur »

The whole premise and tone of this article is flawed and is based on lazy pre conceived notions about what Bordeaux is all about. 'Bordeaux dares to experiment.' These old fuddy duddies who are not as hip and innovative as those cutting edge winemakers in California...do me a favour...

But I must admit I stopped reading this guy some time ago. Just as I don't read Jancis in the FT. Another lazy journalist.

It was interesting though that Duroux said that 2010 is the highest level we have ever achieved. So that is two first growths and the CEO of Palmer who has said that. Oh but they must be wrong because according Musigny 151 2010 is not a great vintage!

I think I would put more trust in Pontallier, Engerer and Duroux.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

I think you need to read my notes a little more carefully, if you want to précis my words.

I agree with Thomas, Palmer is magnificent, in fact mentioned it in my initial 2010 post. I also bought a case.
Musigny 151 wrote:and Palmer made the best young wine I have ever had from the estate.
I also said 2010 is a very good vintage, with pockets of greatness; what I dispute is that it is the greatest vintage ever in Bordeaux.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by AlexR »

Mark,

Do you know Asimov personally?

I can remember when Robert Parker said, I believe for the 2000 vintage, that this was "the greatest in the history of Bordeaux".
One wonders how people can say such things...

Best regards,
Alex
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

I do know him, I have been on the NYT tasting panel, so have a fairly good idea of his palate.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

Alex,

You are right about the small chateaux; we have a tendency to overlook them, which is why I make an effort to attend a lot of the tastings of these growers when I am in Bordeaux. The problem is that not many are imported into the US, so they seldom make it into journalist copy. Sadly the small growers are really struggling; and you can't but help but feel sorry for them, as there are many chateaux that have gone through many generations in the same family, that will be going under in this one. Partly fashion, mostly competition, and often the wines don't measure up.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Comte Flaneur »

[quote="Musigny 151"]I think you need to read my notes a little more carefully, if you want to précis my words.

Mark

I don't think we were ever that far apart in our views. You raised objections about the rave reviews on the ten vintage and rightly raised the issue of high alcohol in a few St-Emilion estates in 2010. You may have got the 'big figure' on La Mish alcohol wrong, but I put down to human error rather than crap journalism.

My only issue was your splash headline re 2010 which sounded a bit premature, but was reassuring in its indication of how well heeled and educated 'cognoscenti' New York palates are evolving re ABV. But ABV was not that different from 2009. Based on what I know 2010 is the dream on the left and 2005 on the right; but neither is weak on the other bank.

Ian
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by JimHow »

For me, Fleur Cardinale (15%) is one of the stars on the right bank in 2010.
One of the wines of the year for me.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by greatbxfreak »

Alex,

You're funny guy, really, trying to find provocation everywhere. And critisizing Bordeaux people for how they behave?

I don't know Asimov. His article about Ch.Palmer is OK, written imho for broader public than wine aficionados. Haven't been in Burgundy so can't compare.

I don't know why you so often underline that YOU visit small chateaux where owners are real peasants?? And you say that owners step down from tractor to greet you? Foreign journalists only visiting cru classes?? During primeur, during Vinexpo or during other periods of the year??

You aren't the only one - I did participate in three Voyage de Presse in Graves/Pessac-Leognan during harvest in 2010, 2012 and 2013. Have you heard of Seguin, Lusseau, Crabitey, Le Sartre, Bardins, Haut Reys and Haut Bacalan? Would you think that Vayron family at Bourgneuf and Francois Mitjavile at Tertre Roteboeuf are whimsy?

Agree with that Palmer 2010 is one of the best wines of the vintage, but there a few others out there as exciting or even better.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by AlexR »

Izak,

My criticism of the brainwashing of foreign journalists did not encompass you ;-).
There are always exceptions to the rule.

As for the Bordelais, I’m not sure you read my post closely enough.

Weather due to change for the better soon.
Everyone's keeping their fingers crossed, hoping for a fine end of the season to make up for lost time.

All the best,
Alex
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

I got an e mail this morning from a wine store.This part was very interesting. Not sure who the answer man is, but I can't feeling he is reflecting some of the consumer anger still around.

THE ANSWERMAN
“...It is a recent memory that 2009 was the greatest Bordeaux vintage I had ever tasted, and certainly there are very few people left living in the world that have as much tasting experience of Bordeaux as I have. 2010 is nearly as fabulous, with some very conscientious and knowledgeable observers thinking it is even superior to 2009. The bottom line is that here are two truly great vintages that have been produced in Bordeaux that may be the two finest years in the last 50 to 100 vintages... Bordeaux is unfairly criticized, and the doomsday cult has lost all credibility with predictions that Bordeaux is dead. With its next great vintage, it will return probably stronger than ever.”--Robert Parker

THE ANSWERMAN: No question 2009s and 2010s are great.. However in the same article, Parker went off on a rant suggesting people who wrote off Bordeaux as ‘dead’ were ‘idiots’ and that as soon as Bordeaux had another great vintage everyone would come running back. If you hold as your time frame for this occurrence the entire future of human history, that’s probably a pretty safe statement. But Bordeaux needs to have that great vintage (2014 isn’t looking too smart at the moment), preferably before ‘Bob’ (their best salesman) retires, and needs to offer out wines at prices that give consumers and the trade a reason to participate in the game. The ‘futures’ market as it currently exists, if not ‘dead’, is at gravely ill and the overall distribution system in the U.S. has altered dramatically since 2009. In ten years, the market might right itself with some good weather and a little sanity.

It’s true that there are a lot of reasonably priced Bordeaux. We sell them, people buy them. But the broad market distribution may never be the same, and the Bordelais have no one to blame but themselves. It is also true that the flagship labels are the ones that the region has relied on to carry their standard for decades.

The world got interested in Bordeaux in part because of those top labels and the ‘futures’ market was an important catalyst for the distribution system as a whole. The market was made by Lafite, Latour, Cos, and Montrose, not Fourcas Durpre and Beau-Site Haut-Vignoble. ‘Trickle-down’ helped the Bordeaux market, so critics shouldn’t blame the public for turning away at a time when world competition for the wine drinkers’ dollar is as fierce as it has ever been. Things ‘trickle’ differently from higher elevations.

Bordeaux may not be ‘dead’, but the system under which it operated over our 30+ years in the business does not seem viable any more. A great many things that Bordeaux has done over the last decade, both good and bad, are unprecedented. But a good part of Bordeaux’s success has also been because they have managed to keep themselves in the limelight. With a series of tough vintages and pricing that was not commensurate with quality, the Bordelais have made themselves easy to ignore and caused people to look elsewhere for wine.

Yes Bordeaux is making better wine, but so is everybody else. As for the ‘doomsday cult’, they probably never got medals from the French government. Also, critics created the monster that is Bordeaux. Those same critics write about 20-year retrospectives on Latour and Le Pin, then tell you not to judge Bordeaux from a few high-roller labels. How many retrospectives have you seen for 87-point petit chateaux? Maybe those are harder to see from such a high horse.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by DavidG »

The pendulum swings. And swings back. But it may not swing back as far into Bordeaux' corner as in the past. More competition at lower prices for the better wines probably means that Bordeaux will never (ooh, that's a long time!) recapture the market dominance it once had. But there will be more interest when the next great vintage comes around. Even if the en primeur market remains moribund.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by AlexR »

Hi,

The Answerman hits a little below the belt sometimes, but some of his negative analysis is justified.

It is *so* tiresome to see people rabbit on about “the greatest Bordeaux vintage I had ever tasted”.

The futures market *is* ill, but we need to wait for a vintage perceived as great before pronouncing it done and gone.
I think it is a cop-out to blame the Bordelais entirely for poor sales of reasonably-priced Bordeaux. I’ve said it before: the wine trade is stuck in an old-fashioned paradigm where Bordeaux = great growths. They are not willing to get behind good, solid, inexpensive wines because they are convinced that there is no market. In short, a vicious circle. Yes, the Bordelais should shoulder most of the blame. But not 100% of it.

Where the Answerman is unquestionably off-base is when he writes “Bordeaux may not be ‘dead’, but the system under which it operated over our 30+ years in the business does not seem viable any more”.
This is due, once again, to the perpetual confusion in the US between great growths and the other 95%.
And even there, does anyone imagine Lafite or Margaux selling their wine directly to importers and distributors? I think not.
Where Answerman has got it right is:
“A great many things that Bordeaux has done over the last decade, both good and bad, are unprecedented. But a good part of Bordeaux’s success has also been because they have managed to keep themselves in the limelight. With a series of tough vintages and pricing that was not commensurate with quality, the Bordelais have made themselves easy to ignore and caused people to look elsewhere for wine”.
Furthermore, the exact same thing is happening in Burgundy at this point!
Has anyone noticed the price increases over the past 3 years?

Answerman writes “Yes Bordeaux is making better wine, but so is everybody else”.
Well, yes and no. And if you like a particular kind of wine, it is not correct to say you can find a “replacement” at the drop of a hat.
However, he’s back on track when he writes: “Those same critics write about 20-year retrospectives on Latour and Le Pin, then tell you not to judge Bordeaux from a few high-roller labels. How many retrospectives have you seen for 87-point petit chateaux? Maybe those are harder to see from such a high horse”.

Therein lies the paradox of Bordeaux.

Alex R.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Jeff Leve »

AlexR wrote:It is *so* tiresome to see people rabbit on about “the greatest Bordeaux vintage I had ever tasted”.
Why? It is their opinion. And in the case of paid critics and writers, opinions are what people pay for.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

Jeff Leve wrote:
AlexR wrote:It is *so* tiresome to see people rabbit on about “the greatest Bordeaux vintage I had ever tasted”.
Why? It is their opinion. And in the case of paid critics and writers, opinions are what people pay for.
Oh what the hell; I find myself agreeing with Jeff twice in the same thread. It's probably because we don't have a glass of wine in front of us to disagree about. :twisted:
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

On a slightly different note, the Bordelais are entirely responsible with breaking the futures market. The whole point of buying futures is to leave money on the table to make it worthwhile for the consumer to buy early. In 2005, they took away all the potential profits, by overpricing their wines, and in the process royally screwed their customer base. But for the Chines market, Bordeaux would be in crisis now, still trying to get out from under a mountain of unsold wine.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Jeff Leve »

Musigny 151 wrote:
Jeff Leve wrote:
AlexR wrote:It is *so* tiresome to see people rabbit on about “the greatest Bordeaux vintage I had ever tasted”.
Why? It is their opinion. And in the case of paid critics and writers, opinions are what people pay for.
Oh what the hell; I find myself agreeing with Jeff twice in the same thread. It's probably because we don't have a glass of wine in front of us to disagree about. :twisted:
Remember, it is Alex we are talking about here. It is so easy to point out the wrong things he says on well.... everything :evil:
Musigny 151 wrote:On a slightly different note, the Bordelais are entirely responsible with breaking the futures market. The whole point of buying futures is to leave money on the table to make it worthwhile for the consumer to buy early. In 2005, they took away all the potential profits, by overpricing their wines, and in the process royally screwed their customer base. But for the Chines market, Bordeaux would be in crisis now, still trying to get out from under a mountain of unsold wine.
Yes and no. Remember, prior to 1982, futures were never a big deal. There were no EP week of tastings. WIne were produced, sold and eventually purchased. Futures were not used as a quick money making thing. BDX wines will still sell. But the urgency to buy as a future will go the way of the Dodo bird.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

Three times in the same thread!
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Jeff Leve »

Musigny 151 wrote:Three times in the same thread!
Wow... Of course we know it's wrong. But it is so easy, and so much fun to play with Alex :mrgreen: And if we didn't do it, Alex would just play with himself. Right? :lol:
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by AlexR »

Jeff,

You are very useful in that you epitomise the spoiled, easily-manipulated foreign journalist.

It is good for the rest of us to know what we're up against.

Alex R.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Jeff Leve »

AlexR wrote:Jeff,

You are very useful in that you epitomise the spoiled, easily-manipulated foreign journalist. It is good for the rest of us to know what we're up against.
Now Alex... Once again, you have it all wrong. OK, most of it wrong. However, you are correct on one point. Bravo! Yes, I admit, I am a foreign journalist.

You are not in anyway, shape or form a journalist. So, who is this rest of us you are referring to? :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by AlexR »

Jeff,

I've really had my fill of nitwits like you, so am starting my own blog.

It will be online by the end of the month.

Alex R.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Jeff Leve »

AlexR wrote:Jeff,

I've really had my fill of nitwits like you, so am starting my own blog. It will be online by the end of the month.
I am sure your reader will enjoy it. Now, if you are going to have a blog, you might want to check for typos. " so am starting my own blog" is not exactly perfect English. If you need help with a name, I am sure I can come up with a few ideas... I'm happy to help :mrgreen:
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by AlexR »

Jeff,

Your help is of course, much appreciated, and I'll be glad to overlook your own typo.

Now, if you would just shape up and be less annoying, that would be even more appreciated.

TIA,
Yours truly,
Alex
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by JimHow »

This place deteriorates into the Lord of the Flies when the BD goes away for a little bit.
Quite fascinating. A microcosm of the Hobbesian world in which we live.
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by Musigny 151 »

So who is (Miss) Piggy?

Alex, please note, agreeing with Jeff, an unusual occurrence in itself, does not constitute joining in his poor attempts at humor at your expense.

I suggest that next time we are in Bordeaux, we all go for a beer (as there is no way Jeff and I will ever agree on a wine).
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Re: NY Times article on Ch. Palmer

Post by DavidG »

JimHow wrote:This place deteriorates into the Lord of the Flies when the BD goes away for a little bit.
Quite fascinating. A microcosm of the Hobbesian world in which we live.
Which is why you created BWE as a dictatorship. A benevolent one, to be sure, but you are the all-powerful sovereign.
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