Is Pontet Canet overrated?

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JimHow
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Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by JimHow »

I'm just asking.
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Comte Flaneur
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Comte Flaneur »

It is probably not over-rated but it rarely makes the tectonic plates shift beneath ones feet. It doesn't excite me.

Just my opinion. The exception for me was the extraordinary 2009. Strangely the 2008 and 2010 left me a bit numb. Very good wines for sure.

The 1994 which marked the Pontet-Canet renaissance really needs drinking now. It has lost its fruit and is cracking up.

I have a case of the 2003, and am looking forward to trying it, but from all the comments on here I should be patient.

I was annoyed with myself for missing out on the 2005. Recently I have watched the price drop. But I think I would rather buy a cut price case of Pichon Baron, Montrose or even GPL 2005.
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Nicklasss
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Nicklasss »

Of course, the price of Château Pontet Canet, since a few vintage, could make you think so.

The wine never deceived me, except maybe the 2001. The 1995-1996-1998-2003-2007 I had were all very good to excellent. But for me too, it did not touch my soft spot, go wonder why? Maybe the wine were too young?

At the same time, I think I've never been a strong Pauillac guy. Everyones know I'm a Saint-Julien fan.

Nic
Last edited by Nicklasss on Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jckba
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by jckba »

I think that only time will tell as most of the recent Pontet Canet's (2005 onwards) have extremely long maturity windows based off of the reviews of those that have had them and as such I just think it is too early to tell. I have bought heavily during this time period hoping for the best but we shall soon see ...
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AlexR
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by AlexR »

I can remember tasting Lafite, Latour, Margaux... and Pontet Canet en primeur from the 2009 vintage and was amazed that the P.C. was clearly in the same league.

The 2010 did not make quite the same impression on me.

Let us hope that the château can keep up the good work. Prices have more than kept pace with the growth in reputation...

Best regards,
Alex R.
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Carlos Delpin
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Carlos Delpin »

Enjoyed an 1988 recently and suffered through a 2005 last week. The 1988 was a classic Bordeaux but the 2005 felt like a modern fruit and alcohol bomb.
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Comte Flaneur
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Interesting how you found the 2005 Carlos. Was it a case of it just being too young?

Last year I tried the 2004 which I found to be technically very good with very high quality fruit. But it was utterly soulless and far too clinical. I sold my case soon after.
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Carlos Delpin
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Carlos Delpin »

Comte, it was totally a case of youth but I also felt that there were conscious decisions made at winemaking and at elevage to get it there. The departure from the 1988 I thought was not only vintage and youth driven but also "style" driven. Mis dos centavos...
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Jeff Leve
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Jeff Leve »

JimHow wrote:I'm just asking.
What vintages are you asking about?

With the exception of 2003, which is good, but not great, starting with the 2005 vintage, I think Pontet Canet started making wines that competes with the best Second Growths. 2009 and 2010 took it to an entirely new qaulity level again.
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robertgoulet
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by robertgoulet »

Overrated in regards to scores? Pricing? Or both? I will say underrated in regards to its classification as a fifth
th growth and overrated in regards to price....i have had tasted '95 and '96 recently, i love them so i am fine with the scores. In fact one of the '95's i rated higher than the critics giving it 95points....the '03 i tasted was in a dunb phase
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DavidG
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by DavidG »

I just heard that their second wine in 2012, Hauts de Pontet, was denied the AOC Pauillac classification by the tasting panel for lack of typicity. Something about not enough oak??? It will be labeled as a Vin de France.

http://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2014/10/ ... table-wine
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robert goulet
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by robert goulet »

Is there a special pauillac oak they r using now? Lol.....what?
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Musigny 151
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Musigny 151 »

Pontet Canet is one of the most interesting properties in all of Bordeaux, and winemaker Jean-Michel Comme has been committed to Biodynamics in a way that no other winemaker in Bordeaux gets close. The first time I met him he recalled how he was forced to spray for mildew, and thereby lost the biodynamic stamp for that year, and I swear there were tears in his eyes. This is one really passionate dude, and he not only practices it at Pontet Canet but at his own property in Entre des Mers.

As for the wines, they are a huge improvement to those being made in the nineties at the estate. 2008-2010 were indeed incredible; I found 2011 one of the top wines of the Medoc, but 2012 broke the streak,and was good but there were far better wines made in Pauillac.

So, overall I think he is a truly gifted winemaker, and the wines are at minimum, very good, and at their best as good as anything made at the Pauillac first growths. As for the question of the lost AOC, I would question the panel rather than Comme.
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tim
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by tim »

Is Pontet Canet overrated? No. :)
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stefan
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by stefan »

Pontet Canet is now the best fifth growth Pauillac IMO. The question for me is whether it is better than the Pichon second growths. I think it is too early to make that call.

The only thing that I do not like about Pontet Canet is its price.
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JimHow
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by JimHow »

Having been to Chateau Pontet Canet, I have come to the conclusion: Pontet Canet is NOT overrated.
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DavidG
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by DavidG »

My bottle of the 2000 last weekend was excellent, if just on the beginning of the maturity plateau.

You guys are making me happy about having a half-case of the 2009 in the cellar.
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Comte Flaneur
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Comte Flaneur »

I agree not over-rated at all. Even though it traces at the price of a super second.

My favourite ever vintage is the 2011. Captivating. I was also really impressed by the 2000 we drank with Sir Alfred and the 2001 I tried here recently.

The vintage that left me a bit cold was the 2004.
Last edited by Comte Flaneur on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Roel
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Roel »

Good question.

Was at the property in 2007 and had a great chat with JM Comme, the winemaker. He is Mr. Biodynamic Plus himself. He was looking for Mouton quality for Mouton prices. That was when I knew I would part from Pontet-Canet.

Jeff calls the 2003 "good, not great". I think that's their best qpr-vintage so far. For 40 Euro a beautiful wine. Fun in the glass. The wines may have become more / too serious. Maybe they are beautiful and impressively well-crafted, but do they do crazy things to your soul? Hmmm....

Horses, harvest at night, amphoras, no de-leafing, no green harvests, Steiner, no temperature controled winemaking, less oak. It's a statement. It's a brand.

I admire Pontet-Canet, but it's marketing as much as is possible. Health. Purity. The 21st century. Palmer does the same trick. Others will follow.
Taking a crap between the vines may be the next step up. Not sure where it will end.

I can't or won't afford Pontet-Canet post-2004. There is so much good stuff around that, for me and despite the skills of Tesseron/Comme, other wines are more attractive. GPL 2009 and Pontet-Canet 2007 have the same price tag. I went for 2009, despite the gimmicks.
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Comte Flaneur
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Roel- I wrongly thought that Pontet-Canet had gone on to the dark side, especially once Michel Rolland arrived on the scene as a consultant. But all my scepticism evaporated when we visited the chateau, and it was nothing to do with watching the Union Jack fluttering majestically in the spring breeze alongside the Stars and Stripes and the Maple Leaf.

I was pretty sceptical of all that bio-dynamic malarkey with farting dobbins resonating through the loud speakers and grapes allegedly picked by left handed virgins under a full moon. All that scepticism went out the window on tasting the 2011 and 2012 which I think are a step up even from the 2008/09/10. On the day I enjoyed the 2011 more than the 2009.

Re Rolland when I mentioned his name J-M LaComme rolled his eyes while Sir Alfred made the point that MR has a strong sense of when to pick, but otherwise has limited influence. One gets the impression that P-C has not been been Rollandised. Rather you get the impression that they are true believers in the biodynamic approach. They got religion.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the 2011 and 2012 are anything to go by - and I suspect the 2014 - but that was harder to evaluate - I think they are on a roll. The contrast with Lynch Bages, which is going down hill, was stark.
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dstgolf
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by dstgolf »

Nice thread.

I'll jump on the band wagon of not over rated but there's a difference with over priced. The wines speak for themselves....delicious and consistent. Agree the rising prices have been a deterrant since my last purchase of the 2009. Still bought in on return from France into the 2014 at $145CDN per bottle which I think is pushing it. Same price as Pichon Baron and I think the latter will be a better wine. Time will tell. Certainly when you look at the company they keep in the 5th growths is there anyone that can compete with their quality at this time year in year out since at least 2000. They are competing with 1st and 2nd growth quality and pricing as such may arguably not be out of keeping.

Don't disagree with the comments regarding the biodynamic hocus pocus and I certainly remain a skeptic however so far they are showing proof is in the pudding and I'll reserve my opinions until they have a few wet cool years where they will struggle with mildew/mold and then we'll see what they do and how they'll perform. I bet they'll resort to some form of twisted alchemy to get around the rules like the Bordelaise have been doing for years with their Bordeaux mix!
Danny
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DavidG
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by DavidG »

I'm with the "not over-rated" crowd. Over-priced? Well, yes, compared to what I want to pay. I'd also like to see Ferrari selling the 458 Italia for a price I could afford. But these things are priced based on what the market will bear. And when quality matches the super-seconds, it's not surprising to see commensurate prices. The RP100s don't help pricing either, pushing the wines into the luxury goods category, but (channeling Jeff Leve here) if people are willing to pay, the wine isn't over-priced for the marketplace.

Regarding biodynamics: there are plenty of scientifically sound practices associated with biodynamic farming that explain the improvement in soil health and wine quality without having to drink the supernatural Kool-Aid.
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AKR
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by AKR »

I've had about 2/3 of a bottle of the 1996 Pontet Canet over the last two nights, with goat chops, and then a beef bourgogne. At first it was very tight, and showed little bouquet and fruit, but by the second night it was showing better. Still styled from an another era -- 13% abv, more on the cranberry fruit side of the spectrum, medium boded, a graphite nose, and a smidge of acidity. I'd hoped for something more thrilling, given that I've held this since release, but it was still very nice all in all. On my ledger, this example gets a B+.

Other recent P-C's slurped up this year were 1994 and 2003; I liked those better.
Last edited by AKR on Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Claudius2
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Claudius2 »

Folks,
I almost tore my (remaining) hair out when reading this.
I have long been critical of the 2003 PC and frankly, whenever I try another vintage, I am underwhelmed.

So along with GPL, it is a Pauillac that I have never "got" though I did enjoy the 2005, a more lush and fruity vintage in any case.
Even the 2000 never really sang for me. The 95 and 96, both good vintages, were too dry and rather angular for me.

A few years back I did a mini-vertical of 2001, 2002 and 2003, and none of them sang, despite the fact that I actually like 2001 and 2002 as vintages.
I recall a fluid 2001 with a lack of fruit and too much tannin, a better balanced, quite acidic medium bodied 2002 and the 2003, which I won't comment on again.

Maybe I am just getting old, and now seem to love the style of wines from St Emilion, Margaux and St Julien.
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Gerry M.
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Gerry M. »

I'll wait to pass judgement until any of these highly rated years age to being drinkable. I last tried the 95' and 96' about five years ago at a horizontal tasting and was underwhelmed. I bought a few bottles of each of 00', 03', 04' and 05' but when the price soared with the 09' vintage I walked away and haven't looked back. There are so many truly great wines out there with a proven track record to justify their pricing, regardless of growth, compared to buying purely on promise. I'll hang onto the combined case or two that I have and hope the promise comes true.
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AKR
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by AKR »

A little dry might be a good description of the 1996 I had. I've had that a number of times over its life and sense that it seemed richer when younger. Although this bottle had been at room temperature for a couple of years recently as I pulled it from the offsite cellar, intending to drink it last year, but somehow that didn't happen in a timely fashion.

What's weird is that I've had some good older CA cabs recenty that were much richer and fruitier, and normally those don't keep multi decades. Examples might be the 91 Cardinale, 96 BV Tapestry, 97 Arrowood Merlot Especiale, 78 Freemark Abbey, etc. All pretty darn good compared to BDX from the same era.
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Nicklasss
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Nicklasss »

FWIW, the 2009 is the best young wine I ever had. That was in 2015, at the Chateau. That same day, the 2000, 2003 and 2005 were also excellent. But of the four, the 2003 was excellent but no 4 for me.

Nic
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Antoine
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Antoine »

I was at the Pontet Canet dinner with Alex, Ian and Tesseron, I own a case of 2003 and I have drunk other vintages a very few times.
Good wines no question.
But I have had great experiences with Pichon Baron and Lalande quite a few times, never with Pontet Canet. On the other hand, none of the Comme era wines have matured yet, so the jury is still out on these and there is hope.
So, I don't know if it is overated but I am not ready to take further risk because of the price and because of my inability to guess whether a "young" wine will be great or not.
...plus, having had the 2 PIchons 2004 and PC, I would not hesitate 1 second picking one of the PIchons at a premium versus a 2004 PC. But this is only 1 vintage.
So, overrated, I don't know but I am PC-sceptic until proven wrong

Comme comes across as a guy with strong beliefs a passion for wine, and, all things equal qualitywise, I prefer a wine without pesticides, no issue
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Harry C.
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by Harry C. »

I find the taste/smell of cow horn overwhelming!
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JimHow
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Re: Is Pontet Canet overrated?

Post by JimHow »

Is Pontet Canet yet another Robert Parker creation?
Really, Bob? 100 points? Really?
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