Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

Am I jumping the gun?....yes
And ridiculously premature?...yes
Ballsy to post this before the convention even starts?....yes
Do I care?....NO...LOL

I just can't stop thinking about the '99 D'armailhac


The only other wines that have ever moved me like this are as follow(no specific ranking)

2004/'01 SHL
'98 la grave a pomerol
'01 bahans haut brion
'95 pontet...tasted 2x's one bottle amazing the other just good
'95 GPL
'82 Talbot



Honorable mention 2003. D'issan 4 the aromatics...2004 la mish for its regal polish


I have tasted plenty of great bordeaux's..Montrose...pichons....LLC...haut brion...evangile...G.larose...pavies...Palmer...ducru'.b...b.ducru...lascombes...malescot...mouton...l.barton....Cos...pape.c....canon la....leoville poy...etc etc etc....but these wines above have really moved me

Well done, Robert Goulet, very well done indeed.

Jim a wine to keep an eye on is larrivet haut brion....this is the sleeper bordeaux....2008 LHB is my favorite wine of the 2008 vintage thus far...I think u enjoyed '09 if I recall correctly...

I just observed that Janis Robinson scored the 2014 Larrivet the same as.......get this........wait 4 it........Palmer, Leo.barton, Margaux, Mouton, Lafite and Haut Brion!!!! Holy qpr mother of our Baby Jesus!

robertgoulet wrote:Jim a wine to keep an eye on is larrivet haut brion....this is the sleeper bordeaux....2008 LHB is my favorite wine of the 2008 vintage thus far...I think u enjoyed '09 if I recall correctly...

I just observed that Janis Robinson scored the 2014 Larrivet the same as.......get this........wait 4 it........Palmer, Leo.barton, Margaux, Mouton, Lafite and Haut Brion!!!! Holy qpr mother of our Baby Jesus!

The 2006 Larrivet Haut Brion is $17.60 at PremierCru right now, and in stock. It's from yesterdays sale offer, 20% discount off the $22 price.

If was starting a cellar, and didn't have lots of mature wine, that seems like a reasonable flyer to load up on. As it is, I still have lots of the quite nice 2000 LHB.

On the list of impressive wines, I certainly agree with the 98 La Grave a Pomerol and 82 Talbot.

Also noticed that K&L has the 00 Marsau in stock for $20, which tastes very similar to the 98 La Grave a Pomerol. I don't know what the provenance is. My own bottles are -- implausibly -- still delightful after all these years.

robertgoulet wrote:Jim a wine to keep an eye on is larrivet haut brion....this is the sleeper bordeaux....2008 LHB is my favorite wine of the 2008 vintage thus far...I think u enjoyed '09 if I recall correctly...

I just observed that Janis Robinson scored the 2014 Larrivet the same as.......get this........wait 4 it........Palmer, Leo.barton, Margaux, Mouton, Lafite and Haut Brion!!!! Holy qpr mother of our Baby Jesus!

Undoubtedly....LHB is making good wine these days. On the same token, considering the qpr angle, Latour Martillac is also making good wine. I liked it so much at UGC tasting that I loaded up on 2010 LM...

As AKR mentioned, every now and then PC has tremendous offers...I picked up few bottles of 2004 Pol Roger Blanc de Blanc for $39.99 few days back ...NV Pol Roger routinely costs more than that!!!!

I have no clue how to navigate PC...I have no clue where to find sale items nor can I find the larrivet ....ahhhhhhhhh

robertgoulet wrote:I have no clue how to navigate PC...I have no clue where to find sale items nor can I find the larrivet ....ahhhhhhhhh

You can sign up for their email newsletter.... To be honest with you, I once a day(read that as euphemism for more than once) check 'what's new' section of PC, and that's when I pick up the deals... As far as LHB, it's a bit hard to find, especially their Blanc. That's my favorite white after DdC and SHL in terms of quality, but way too cheap than them...Usually their white is more expensive than their red...Had few bottles of 09 white, drank half of them...Could not find 10 LHB white for a decent price though...

Chateau Vin wrote: As AKR mentioned, every now and then PC has tremendous offers...I picked up few bottles of 2004 Pol Roger Blanc de Blanc for $39.99 few days back ...NV Pol Roger routinely costs more than that!!!!

In stock???

My red wine of the year so far is probably the 2000 Aldo Conterno Barolo Riserva Granbussia.

Blanquito wrote:

Chateau Vin wrote: As AKR mentioned, every now and then PC has tremendous offers...I picked up few bottles of 2004 Pol Roger Blanc de Blanc for $39.99 few days back ...NV Pol Roger routinely costs more than that!!!!

In stock???

I doubt it. For a variety of reasons, I'm reluctant to do too much prearrival with PC. Maybe the odd item here & there. But that's it.

Stuff like NV bubbly is something that I think should be easy to deliver on as they can sub in every/any years release, but they seem to have an awful lot of problems fulfilling outstanding orders.

Separately, are there any obvious/layup buys at Zachys right now - esp among France/Italy/Spanish regions?

Blanquito wrote:

Chateau Vin wrote: As AKR mentioned, every now and then PC has tremendous offers...I picked up few bottles of 2004 Pol Roger Blanc de Blanc for $39.99 few days back ...NV Pol Roger routinely costs more than that!!!!

In stock???

If interested, PM me with your email, if something interesting comes up at PC, I can inform you...

Its been a few days since I bought. I just checked and is out of stock...Like AKR, I also dont do too much prearrival with PC. Also. I only bought vintage bubbly from them and never bought NV stuff...

They take a bit time to deliver, but so far I am willing to live with it. Like Stefan said, if they go belly up, he might lose stuff worth of a fancy car, but in my case if not a fancy car I might be down by a used car...But if I get restless about the wait, they allow me to substitute the stuff with other wines in stock... Let's see...

Chateau Vin wrote:

Blanquito wrote:

Chateau Vin wrote: As AKR mentioned, every now and then PC has tremendous offers...I picked up few bottles of 2004 Pol Roger Blanc de Blanc for $39.99 few days back ...NV Pol Roger routinely costs more than that!!!!

In stock???

If interested, PM me with your email, if something interesting comes up at PC, I can inform you...

Its been a few days since I bought. I just checked and is out of stock...Like AKR, I also dont do too much prearrival with PC. Also. I only bought vintage bubbly from them and never bought NV stuff...

They take a bit time to deliver, but so far I am willing to live with it. Like Stefan said, if they go belly up, he might lose stuff worth of a fancy car, but in my case if not a fancy car I might be down by a used car...But if I get restless about the wait, they allow me to substitute the stuff with other wines in stock... Let's see...

I am waiting on a case of the 04 Pol Roger on pre-arrival from PC, ordered in February for almost the same price, so I was curious if this was now "in stock".

For the most part I am a happy PC customer, but I am getting sick of the delays, most of which have been for orders of half-bottles. The 750s all seem to arrive much faster, in fact I just took delivery of my last orders of 2010 Bordeaux from them (5 bottles of the 2010 GPL, 3 2010 Branaire, and 3 2010 Brane Cantenac!), while I still await half-bottle orders of 2009 Bordeaux ordered nearly 3 years earlier.

I know I've asked this question a hundred times but:
Where exactly do these PC "prearrivals" sit for three, four, five or more years at a time?
The reason why someone at PC can't just pick up a phone to arrange for shipping in a timely manner us WHAT again?

Blanquito wrote:
I am waiting on a case of the 04 Pol Roger on pre-arrival from PC, ordered in February for almost the same price, so I was curious if this was now "in stock".

For the most part I am a happy PC customer, but I am getting sick of the delays, most of which have been for orders of half-bottles. The 750s all seem to arrive much faster, in fact I just took delivery of my last orders of 2010 Bordeaux from them (5 bottles of the 2010 GPL, 3 2010 Branaire, and 3 2010 Brane Cantenac!), while I still await half-bottle orders of 2009 Bordeaux ordered nearly 3 years earlier.

Haven't checked mine, I suspect its prearrival...

JimHow wrote:I know I've asked this question a hundred times but:
Where exactly do these PC "prearrivals" sit for three, four, five or more years at a time?
The reason why someone at PC can't just pick up a phone to arrange for shipping in a timely manner us WHAT again?

When I asked them few years back, this is what they said... CA and DC are the only places where they allow importers to be retailers also. Looks like PC is an importer as well and waits for its container to be filled up and then it gets shipped. As far as I am concerned, it is not fully convincing as I have been waiting for some 2008 hermitage for the past 4 years and does that mean that they have not received any containers since then?

PC has 'shorted' the wine to you, and looks in the open market to meet their existing orders. They never had fixed commitments from anyone to sell them the wines, at the prices they are offering to customers. Usually John Fox is able to use these 'orders in hand' to buy up large production, widely available wines when the rights prices present themselves in all the markets he surveys. But everyone now and then, he is caught out, and will be unable to find something, or the price is so high that they can't bear to cover it.

Some of those half bottles are an example of the problem. Some wines were NEVER bottled in splits, so they simply can never be fulfilled.

Historically the majority of the time this hasn't mattered. There is an ocean of red Bordeaux, no matter what anyone tries to suggest otherwise.

But for a few of the rarities, small production stuff etc. -- the very things one might rationally order EP -- are the very ones most likely to be defaulted on under the PC model.

Just got off the horn today with PC. They are swapping out all of my 2009 half bottles with 750s of the same wine. For my trouble, I'm getting a 26% increase in the total volume of wine in the swaps (27 half bottles becoming 17 full bottles) and almost all of the equivalent 750s are in stock.

And the difference between what PC does and what Bernie Madoff did is WHAT?
Does a first time buyer of "prearrivals" from PC know that they are paying for something that PC MAY get their hands on at some undetermined date in the future?
Or are they led to believe that PC has accessed these wines, that they have a tight to these wines.
I'm surprised they're allowed to get away with that.

The difference between PC and Bernie Madoff? Seriously? PC delivers, and when they don't they give your money back.

JimHow wrote:And the difference between what PC does and what Bernie Madoff did is WHAT?
Does a first time buyer of "prearrivals" from PC know that they are paying for something that PC MAY get their hands on at some undetermined date in the future?
Or are they led to believe that PC has accessed these wines, that they have a tight to these wines.
I'm surprised they're allowed to get away with that.

For me the big question is if people stopped buying new pre-arrivals, would PC be able to fulfill the old pre-arrivals? I guess we could ask that of any sizeable wine retailer, but it seems like PC's model depends so heavily on it's pre-arrival business.

I also wonder because (a) PC takes so long, (b) they often offer outrageously low prices (so someone in the supply chain is taking a serious haircut).

DavidG wrote:The difference between PC and Bernie Madoff? Seriously? PC delivers, and when they don't they give your money back.

IINM Bernie did "give back" or permit redemptions of many hundreds of millions. And thus the claw back by the trustee.

Hold on to your wines, lads, and hope they've wiped their hard drives well and consolidated their email servers.

Blanquito wrote:Just got off the horn today with PC. They are swapping out all of my 2009 half bottles with 750s of the same wine. For my trouble, I'm getting a 26% increase in the total volume of wine in the swaps (27 half bottles becoming 17 full bottles) and almost all of the equivalent 750s are in stock.

That is pretty wise, although the question then becomes: would you have even ordered the wine EP if that was a material risk known ahead of time?

Again for a 750ml of GPL, they'll eventually find it. even in a peak vintage.

The guy who was waiting for a split of Ausone or something....when the estate didn't bottle in that format is SOL. If he's lucky he gets a monetary adjustment, or store credit.

But I don't think people really want credit so they can shop from the fairly slim pickings of what PC actually has on the shelves. I was in their main store a few weeks ago -- its bizarre. Gorgeous beautiful store. Great racks etc. But I would bet we know collectors who have more wine than whats in their store. Its fairly spartan in what is actually on the shelves.

======

Anyone been to Zachys recently? any screaming deals there? they sent out a free shipping code, and I have not bought anything from them in perhaps a decade so some of their stuff may not feel 'picked over' to me.

Amazing that such a relatively humble list of wines should be your greatest drinking experiences,when you have obviously drunk a lot of very fine wine. Maybe,part of the experience was the food and company you drank the wine with ?

Keith not necessarily. This, below, is the list of previous wotys.

What are the criteria for choosing? You will have to ask Jim. But usually they are wines which have struck a chord.

But as you can see there are several first growths in there. In 2009 the 1989 Lafite was chosen, not least because it knocked 1989 Haut-Brion into a cocked hat.

That was not just Jim's opinion, nor mine but those around the table. Some of the most knowledgable Bordeaux wine aficionados in the world.

2000: 1996 Sociando-Mallet
2001: 1989 Lynch-Bages
2002: 1995 d'Yquem
2003: 1999 Haut Brion Blanc
2004: 2000 Pichon Baron and 2000 du Tertre
2005: 2000 Margaux
2006: 2003 Pontet-Canet
2007: 2002 Leoville Poyferre
2008: 2005 Burgundy vintage (protest vote)
2009: 1989 Lafite Rothschild
2010: 2005 Cantemerle
2011: 2008 Leoville Poyferre
2012: 2009 Giscours
2013: 2004 Smith Haut Lafitte
2014: 2010 Chasse Spleen

keith prothero wrote:Amazing that such a relatively humble list of wines should be your greatest drinking experiences,when you have obviously drunk a lot of very fine wine. Maybe,part of the experience was the food and company you drank the wine with ?

If you saw the ruffians I hung out with then you would observe that clearly it was not the company I keep! Lol....and actually I judge my wines as is...meaning: without the food influence...so it definitely wasn't that


Funny...one of the only handful of burgundy wines to haunt me is a little ole' village wine from humble Givry....'07 Michel Sarrazin champs lalot such a subtle, soft, understated, elegant, pretty wine

But if you compare my list to the BWE WOTY list then I do not appear to look as crazy...but yes these wines were amazing, sometimes in subtle different ways...in fact I would pick the '01 bahans haut brion every time over the '03 Haut Brion I had shortly after. Though, yes I know the HB is too young.

JimHow wrote:And the difference between what PC does and what Bernie Madoff did is WHAT?
Does a first time buyer of "prearrivals" from PC know that they are paying for something that PC MAY get their hands on at some undetermined date in the future?
Or are they led to believe that PC has accessed these wines, that they have a tight to these wines.
I'm surprised they're allowed to get away with that.

I think a substantial # of retailers do this because of pressure from the competition and clearly it does not fair well all the time, but it's what they do after that really counts to me....when Knightsbridge failed to procure my mag of 2005 Montrose, they refunded my $ and sent me 3 bottles of the 2nd label dame Montrose for my troubles....so that helped ease the pain tremendously

I have an unusual palate Robert in that I prefer my Bordeaux(and actually Nebbiolo and Rioja too) with many many years bottle age Hence my favourite ever Bordeaux have been from 45,47,59 and 61 with the Latour and Palmer 61 being just about the best,simply because both bottles were amazing---------Also love the 89 Haut Brion but it has many years,in my opinion before it will be anywhere near its best.
Favourite white was the 78 Laville HB and sweetie the 42 and 50 Yquem.
Wish I could appreciate younger wine,but sadly I just taste too much fruit and often oak.
Great though that we all have different palates,or else what a boring lot we would be

JimHow wrote:I know I've asked this question a hundred times but:
Where exactly do these PC "prearrivals" sit for three, four, five or more years at a time?
The reason why someone at PC can't just pick up a phone to arrange for shipping in a timely manner us WHAT again?

One more point. A Ponzi/Pyramid scheme like Madoff's eventually has to fail, as it returned huge paper profits to its "investors", requiring ever greater inflows to cover the original investors at the top. No way to make its income and outlays balance that way over the long run.

PC may rely on current orders to cover old ones, but there's no reason these two streams couldn't be in rough equilibrium over longer periods. Sure, PC may lose some bets (if that what it's actually doing) if a wine goes way up in price after its sold as a prearrival, but it can also win some bets as well, so this doesn't fundamentally turn it into a pyramid scheme. As I see it, the biggest issue to its viability is how well it's run, not its fundamental business model. And since they can wait years looking for the best deal or buying/selling as need be, it gives then huge flexibility to keep its balls in the air.

Whether wine lovers want to be part of all this is another matter.

It has been quite a few years since PC had a glitch in delivering wines they had sold to me. What I do not know is whether they have themselves paid for wines that they offer as pre arrivals. Probably yes in most cases because they are importers, distributors, and retailers.

Madoff said he intended to satisfy every investor before it all came crashing down.
The PC "model" works, unless there comes a time when it doesn't work.
I remember going into their store a few years back and seeing what Arv described, basically very little wine on the actual premises. It's all in the clouds I guess.
What is the difference between what PC is doing and what Rare did?

keith prothero wrote:I have an unusual palate Robert in that I prefer my Bordeaux(and actually Nebbiolo and Rioja too) with many many years bottle age Hence my favourite ever Bordeaux have been from 45,47,59 and 61 with the Latour and Palmer 61 being just about the best,simply because both bottles were amazing---------Also love the 89 Haut Brion but it has many years,in my opinion before it will be anywhere near its best.
Favourite white was the 78 Laville HB and sweetie the 42 and 50 Yquem.
Wish I could appreciate younger wine,but sadly I just taste too much fruit and often oak.
Great though that we all have different palates,or else what a boring lot we would be

Understandable, considering the oldest bordeaux I have ever tasted was an '82 Talbot (which absolutely floored me) I can see why you might lean that way

>>
I remember going into their store a few years back and seeing what Arv described, basically very little wine on the actual premises. It's all in the clouds I guess.
>>

The store is fancy but PC does little walk in business. PC owns the store and their payments are lower than the rent on their former lousy place in Emeryville. They have a huge storage facility at their new location but have little reason to put things on the shelves. My daughter lives three blocks from the store, so I often stop by when I am in town, usually to pick up something I bought on the internet or to buy Champagne, since Lucie never has enough fizzy plonk to throw down. When PC moved to the store, they considered having walk in only specials, but apparently it turned out that it was not worth their trouble.

The store requires that one be 'buzzed in' by the two lovely ladies manning the front desk. I didn't see anyone there the entire time I was there. I too was just picking up a mag, while Mrs. R was off looking at some of the local ethnic shops.

There was another tale of woe on wb today of some guy who got sandbagged on his 08 p-l. which PC's neighbor (relatively speaking) has available for $110. they made 13k cases of that one as well.

If truth be told, I am hesitate to buy more from PC until I get some of what I have already purchased delivered. I have open orders of 350 bottles of which only 6 bottles(!) are ready for shipping. One order of 6 bottles goes back to 2010, but all the others are 2012 and later. I have no reason to expect problems, but that is a bigger exposure to loss than I feel comfortable with.

that's a lot. probably bigger than a lot of peoples collections/cellars.

Yeah, Arv, it is amazing how much wine you can buy when you have two social securities, a retirement, a full time job, no children on the family dole, and your mortgage paid off. Getting old is not all bad.

stefan wrote:If truth be told, I am hesitate to buy more from PC until I get some of what I have already purchased delivered. I have open orders of 350 bottles of which only 6 bottles(!) are ready for shipping. One order of 6 bottles goes back to 2010, but all the others are 2012 and later. I have no reason to expect problems, but that is a bigger exposure to loss than I feel comfortable with.

Wow! You make me feel better, I'm down to 73 pre-arrivals now (having received 83 wines in the last 6 months, which has helped a lot).

stefan wrote:Yeah, Arv, it is amazing how much wine you can buy when you have two social securities, a retirement, a full time job, no children on the family dole, and your mortgage paid off. Getting old is not all bad.

Stay out of Home Depot. The remodeling bug is as bad/expensive of a habit as fine wine!

I noticed that the WOTY was the 2010 Chasse Spleen. I have ordered some large formats of that; i have some hopes they can make old bones.

How is that drinking now? I have not had young vintages of that, usually only buying mature ones, although I'm still patiently waiting on some 2000s I laid down at release.

JimHow wrote:Madoff said he intended to satisfy every investor before it all came crashing down.
The PC "model" works, unless there comes a time when it doesn't work.
I remember going into their store a few years back and seeing what Arv described, basically very little wine on the actual premises. It's all in the clouds I guess.
What is the difference between what PC is doing and what Rare did?

PC delivers. PC survived the greatest recession in who-knows-how-long and still delivered. Rare LLC didn't.

I can understand advising caution. I've stopped buying pre-arrivals myself. Partly out of caution but given my past positive experience it really had more to do with impatience and general lack of interest in futures at this point. Stefan may live to enjoy his pending PC wines at maturity, but I'm not so sure about myself

I'm having difficulty accepting the comparison to Madoff just becau evidence of a crime might surface in the future. Just because their business model (which none of us really know for certain) is opaque and seems to be out of the ordinary. Everyone on this board drinks unusual quantities of wine, but it doesn't make any one of them an alcoholic unless they, well, actually become one.

Stefan, you have the most deft gift of understatement ... truth be told/hesitant to order more ... I am still laughing. It's a good morning.