1998 Carruades de Lafite

[AlexR]

Let's face it, les Carruades gets a lot of flak these days. People complain about the huge price increases and it is said that quality has not kept pace.
I saw a bottle of 2006 les Carraudes just a couple of days ago in a supermarket for 75 euros.

I had a wine dinner at my house on Saturday and, as usual at such evenings, I was not able to lesisurely take notes, so here is just a brief description.

After Drappier Rosé Champagne we sat down to dinner and started off with 1998 Yquem and foie gras. This vintage is said to be so-so and not very botrytized. While we found the wine very good rather than superb on the nose, the silky, smooth, lucious flavour of this Yquem was just wonderful. People (myself included) often drink Yquem too young, but this wine was showing very well at just 10 years of age. The evolution on the palate was impressively seamless.
The next wine was 2000 Ch. la Rivière (Fronsac). This is one of the most beautiful châteaux in Bordeaux and they have a huge production. We had the 1998 recently, and this impressed us more than the 2000, which is nevertheless a good wine quite enjoyable to drink now.

The 98 Carraudes is not yet at its peak, but was an expressive enjoyable wine. It had the pencil shaving aromas typical of Pauillac, as well as some plummy overtones. The palate was suave with caramel/vanilla notes, although the structure was a bit angular. A class act, but without aromatics reminsicent of the grand vin, nor the rich sleekness. That is to say, one is not expecting Lafite when one drinks Les Carruades, but perhaps more of a ressemblance even so.
Second wines in general get a bad rap. I'd say in their defense that it's a mixed bag, and there are some wonderful examples out there.
Latour expect their Forts de Latour (which they claim is not a second wine, but let's not go there...) to hold its own in blind tastings of second growths. Which I think it often does.
How would Les Carruades fare? I've tasted the last several vintages at the en primeur tastings and now this mature version. I'd say we're talking about a solid, fine wine, but am reserved about value for money.

I'd be interested to read any other recent experiences with Les Carruades.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[JimHow]

I bought a single bottle of '98 Carruades upon release. I liked it a lot. Then I bought a case, all twelve bottles of which i drank in about a two year period about three-four years ago. I thought all twelve bottles were a disappointment. Maybe I didn't wait long enough, but i thought they were thin and watery.

[jal]

I remember a discussion I had about this wine vs the 1998 Bahans Haut Brion. I preferred the Bahans but I thought the Carruades was correct. The 1995 and 1996 were quite good IIRC, just that as a second wine of Lafite, it does not exactly uphold its pedigree.

[ChrisW]

I don't think that I've ever tasted the '98 carruades (or I just cannot remember), but the recollection of my experiences with the 2000, 2001 and 2002 is that in those vintages this is a nice but not really extraordinary wine. I believe that I paid around EUR 20 for those wines, which at that time was USD 20 or less, and I think that was about the maximum I would have been willing to pay given the wine's quality.

I think the criticism towards the carruades does not concern its quality as this is the same or maybe even somewhat better than it was in the past, but concerns only the incredibly high price which is paid for this wine by (ultimately) consumers in Asia. Good for them; let them have the entire production. I think that there are many other wines of similar quality, which can still be bought at the old price level of carruades by the more informed wine consumer.

ChrisW

[SteveH]

Carruades de Lafite has become fodder for fraud and deception in asia because it is often sold in restaurants there as 'Chateau Lafite Rothschild' to the uninformed newly wealthy. This is really a shame because Carruades is generally just a mediocre wine, at best. Hence, those who pay the royal price believing it's the grand vin may never know the true beauty and splendor of the 1st Growth.

[AlexR]

"A mediocre wine at best" is going a wee bit too far in my opinion.
I've tasted the last few vintages "en primeur".
It is a good, but not a great wine IMHO.

As for the confustion between Les Carruades and the Grand Vin, yes, this is frequent.
The former label was identical except for the name in small red print.
I see that the new label really hasn't changed things!

Heck, how many people confuse Mouton Cadet and Mouton Rothschild?
Tons of 'em!

All the best,
Alex

[stefan]

My futures of '02 Lafite arrived at my wine merchants with the name Pauillac. (This was from the same distributor who is selling '08 de Fargues as the second wine of Yquem).

stefan

[Chasse-Spleen]

I've never understood the fuss over the second wines of first growths. I don't know why someone would buy a second wine at that price when they can get the first of a house like Giscours, Sociando-Mallet or Lagrange for the same money. Of course, they may think they'll be more drinkable young or else, as many have said above, they just don't know any better. I know that there are some second wines that make for a rather good drink. But they go for a more reasonable price. Les Forts 1982 is the only one I ever tried that really blew me away.

But this takes the cake - just yesterday I saw a second wine at Astor that I'd never seen before. It was the second wine of Chateau d'Escurac, which is basically this spoofilated modern wine from the Medoc that recently (as far as I know) started scoring RP points in vintages like '03 and '05, with tons of alchohol and extract. Not a bad wine, if that's your style. It costs about $20 bucks, but they've got their sights set higher I guess, as they're now selling their second wine for that much. Totally absurd.
-Chasse

PS. I shared a bottle of '05 Villars on Sunday night - it was delicious. Not terribly complex, but highly enjoyable. Starting to develop some tobacco on the nose. Lots of good things going on there. The headlines may read, "Chasse blows it on 2005!"

[JimHow]

Carruades sucks, it is maybe a notch above supermarket swill.

It is worth about 8 or 9 bucks. It is one of the biggest scandals in the world of wine.

[JimHow]

If I had a choice between Jacobs Creek or Carruades for ten bucks, it would be a toss up.

[JimHow]

If you want to drink what Carruades should be, buy a bottle of Duhart Milon.

Carruades is more in the class of Yellow Tail.

I'm not even being sarcastic here. This wine is a scam.

[DavidG]

I know what you're up to here, Jim, and it isn't going to work. This is a classic reverse pump and dump. First you tear down Carruades' reputation, then you corner the North American market, and when the world wakes up to how fabulous the wine really is, you make a killing.

[DavidG]

In reality, my view corresponds most closely with Chasse's - second wines of the first growths are generally more expensive than they are worth. The fraudulent passing off of Carruades as Lafite overseas is pretty disgusting, and while I'm sure it's only one of many, it's ridiculously blatant.

[DavidG]

Not that the first growths are "worth it" at today's prices...

[PappaDoc]

The only Carruades that impressed me was the 96. Then again, 96 Left Bank wines are top notch.
I agree with most here that it's much better to drink a Sociando, Lagrange (St Julien), Duhart, etc than most second labels.

These are some second lables that did make an excellent impression on me.

1982 & 1989 Haut-Bages-Averous- (Lynch Bages) Arv brought the 82 to Fratellis Rest. some eight years ago and it was classic Pauillac. It caused me to buy 3 btls of the 2000 (Have not opend one yet) Had a small taste of the 89-Super!

1999 Carillon de L'Angelus (L'Angelus)- Given to me as a retirement gift from my Union President. It was quite tasty in that fruit forward style that many 99 Bordeaux show. At $35.00 a good value.

1998 Bahans-Haut-Brion- Really has the nose of Haut Brion, it's just that the volume is turned down from Cathedral to Chamber. Quite nice and I'd buy again at $35.

1970 & 1982 Les Forts de Latour- Both wines were big, strapping Pauillacs, with the signature Creme d' Cassis. Large structure with full round tannins to require ageing. I drank the 70 at age 12 in its' first stage of maturity. The 82 was drunk younger, at age eight. It could have used two or three more years. I think the 82 had more potential, but that's academic now.

1996 Clos du Marquis (Leoville Las Cases)- My best experience with a second lable, but then again I'm crazy about the 96 Las Cases, thinking it one of the best if not top 3 Las Cases I've ever had. The wines is a cross between Pauillac and St Julien. This second wine usually needs the most time to show at it's best and would probably live longest.

1989 Pavillon Rouge du Chateau Margaux (Chateau Margaux)- Tried side by side with the 89 Margaux at Zachys in 1992 or 1993, it showed better than the Grand Vin that day. The Grand Vin had a very roasted quality and seemed over-oaked. Corrine Mentzelopoulos (owner) and the wine maker, Paul Pontallier both seemed very underwhelmed by the Margaux and prefered the second lable showing with the explanation that the Margaux was suffering btl sickness. That was the day I heard Corrine say she wished to have Hot Dogs for lunch instead of a good resturaunt in town. I think they went to "Walters" in Mamaroneck, world famous for Hot Dogs and Shakes.

2003 Reserve de la Comtesse- ( Pichon-Longueville-Comtesse de Lalande) Had a higher percentage of Merlot than the Grand Vin. Beautiful aromatics, it knocked me out the first time I tried it. Not made to last, it was an instant "Crowd Pleaser" right out of the btl. Best was it was on sale for $28 per btl just two years ago. I'm very sorry I didn't buy a case.

I've tried other second labels but none of those made me wish to buy them. Again, I prefer Petite Chateau over most second lables

[Chasse-Spleen]

I have to admit, I bought a 2004 Bahans-Haut-Brion at Z's on sale a year or so ago for about $45 (not exactly cheap) that seemed to have terrific qualities to it. Only problem, it was subtly corked. Even with the taint, you could tell that there was a really good wine there. If I was going to buy a second, that's one I would consider. In a normally heated economy, it might be a decent value. But then, is that a true second or a wine that can stand alone on its own?