Red Bordeaux and food match : how irreductible are you?

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:13 pm

At the Wednesday night dinner, the free dinner (not in a Chateau) of the 2015 BWE convention, some of us went to a nice fish and seashells restaurant. The tough ''fashion victim'' irreductible BWEers present, enjoyed their fish and sea shells with ... a Cru Classé red Bordeaux. Personnally, I would drink red Bordeaux with fish and/or seashells if the preparation and cooking of the dishes permit it (but this is very rare), but that night i completely refused to have a glass of red Bordeaux, preferring a little dry white Graves and some alsatian white that went very well with my fish/seashells. But on the other end, I'm probably one of the most introvert person and slightly traditionnal from BWE...

My question : are you so much into red Bordeaux that you drink it with almost anything you eat? Fish and seashells, sushi/wasabi, spicy dishes, fast food, vegetarian, high tomatoes italian food, lemon base dishes...

Me no. Even if red Bordeaux are my favorites, i just can't drink them with spicy thailand dishes or curry , or fish/seashell or high tomato content italian dishes (prefer the Sangiovese with it).

What about you?

Nic

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:45 pm

Nic,

I thought Jim`s concept of ordering the La Tour Carnet with the seafood platter and then onto pan seared sole on the bone was not something that I`d normally do but not being averse to trying I`d say that it went surprisingly well and I quite enjoyed the match. No there certainly was no preparation to suggestion a good match but I quite enjoyed it allowing you and Howard to pollish off two bottles of white(graves and Alsation Reisling if memory serves me corectly). I had a taste of the reisling and my preferrance was to stick with the red Bordeaux!

When it comes to Thai,Vietnamese,Indian curry I prefer cold beer rather than any wine. Lemon can actually be used to match up well with any wine depending on the prep. Acidity can be a good thing as long as it doesn`t over power. Tomato can be tough and even though my preferrance is Bordeaux I often defer to chianti/Brunello for the more appropriate acidity balance.

I think Nic that you have to broaden your horizons and not be so fixed in your ways!!

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:59 pm

I had a 95 St Emilion with (mostly homemade) Indian food over the weekend. Very hot day, and probably not the best choice.

These summer months are times to explore the rest of the cellar, and the world of wine, especially whites and sparkling.

Some of my affection for BDX is going to, by the cruel calculus of the cost, going to be diminished over the long run.

So much enjoyable bottles can't be replaced at prices I consider reasonable, and their competition in other regions has gotten much tougher.

That's ok. That pretty much happens to all good wine regions.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:08 pm

I drink Bordeaux with just about anything, including whoopee pies.

Mmmmm… 89 Lynch and les pies de la whoopee…. Mmmmm.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:26 pm

I have had red Bordeaux with fish. No problem if the wine and food aren't a perfect match. Sometimes I can enjoy them separately at the same meal, if that makes any sense. As long as the wine and food don't clash horribly. Sometimes the food is so anti-red-wine that I won't do it. Spicy Asian is one of those. Waste of good wine IMO.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:27 pm

Had a recently released 2000 Leoville Barton with fresh fish at a restaurant on the west coast of the Baja back in April 2004. It was heaven.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:55 pm

I have no problem believing that Jim. I've had great Bdx/fish matches. If there was anything I would protest about that experience it is that you opened the Leoville Barton 20 years too soon. But that's just me.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:28 pm

Quality young Bordeaux, in that first year or two before it shuts down, is as good as if not better than aged Bordeaux.
Such was the case with 2000 Leoville Barton.
The wine is closed tight right now.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:35 pm

Yes, yes, Bordeaux can be great in that window between release and the slumber phase. No argument there. My comment was based on personal preference alone. For some people, it's even better in that phase than in the phase when it starts to re-open, or even when it hits the maturity plateau. For some, it's best as it is climbing the maturity peak For me, it's best when it's on that plateau. Which is why I added "that's just me." No objective right or wrong here. Just personal preference. Should have said "I" would have opened something older...

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:44 pm

Aged Bordeaux is transcendent. The 1975 Cheval Blanc in France was in a perfect place to me.
Young Bordeaux off the shelf is great too.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:06 pm

I do not like red Bordeaux with most fish dishes. With tuna or salmon done certain ways a red is fine, but generally I would go with a pinot noir instead of a Bordeaux. Red snapper in a tomato sauce is also good with reds, but, again, there are better choices than Bordeaux. On the rare times that I match Bordeaux with fish, I use an older, softer wine; more likely from the right bank than the left.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:06 pm

Mature right bank Bordeaux and salmon can be excellent. Depending on the prep, steak-y fish like swordfish can also match well. I agree that the softer fruit and more acidic profile of a Pinot Noir is a more natural match, but sometimes I just want a Bordeaux, fish or not.

JCNorthway · Post by **JCNorthway** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:46 am

A few years back at my wine group's annual fancy dinner, we had a lobster dish paired with 1982 Gruaud Larose. A few of the "traditionalists" thought it was heresy. Though it certainly was not a typical pairing, I had no objection to it. Besides, I think I would eat anything if I got to drink 1982 Gruaud Larose!

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:10 am

JCNorthway wrote: Besides, I think I would eat anything if I got to drink 1982 Gruaud Larose!

Touché! As much as I like a good pairing, sometimes the wine is more important than the food.

tim · Post by **tim** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:41 am

I think proper matching is important, however proper matching with Red Bordeaux definitely includes some fish.

In addition, it depends on the age of the Bordeaux. Generally speaking, the older the Bordeaux, the more primary the food I want to accompany it. Spices, even mild ones, can disrupt an older wine, whereas younger wines can hold up better.

For pepper-spicy food, or curries, etc, I would never go with a Red Bordeaux. I think it destroys the wine. If I am going with a red wine and food with any pepper-type spice, I would choose something along the lines of a Syrah-based wine, or alternatively a Spanish Rioja. Or something from a volcanic region.

I like Red Bordeaux with some fish, especially if the skin is left on the fish while it is cooked. In this case, I agree that it would be better with age.

Chateau Vin · Post by **Chateau Vin** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:28 pm

Granted, need to be cautious when pairing fish with red wine, but afraid not Nic, afraid not...

IMO, actually burgundy goes well with salmon and meaty fish. If I want to match red Bordeaux, I would do it with older red Bordeaux as it would be more elegant with mellowed tannins. But ofcourse white Bordeaux is heaven with salty, briny seafood such as oysters, anchovies, etc.

Also, it depends on how the fish is prepared...salty, with lemon sauce, etc... You get the point...

I am an Indian, and I have to say IMO, generally Indian food does not go well with wine. In India, wine was never part of the meal unlike Europe, and the abundance availability of spices helped evolve the food uncomplimentary of wine, unlike Europe. But in my experience, probably reisling and torrentes are the best bet. Although the heat in the food exasperates the alcohol level, more than often, it's the spices!!! With so many spices, the nuances in red Bordeaux, especially in a mature red, get lost!!! The spices and flavors of the food dominate the complexity and nuances of the red wine. Having said that, I also cook Indian food in a different style to go with my red bordeaux, but then you are moving away from traditional indian food...

Bordelaise are traditionalists and they do pair red Bordeaux with seafood occasionally!!!! When we had dinner at Lafite three years ago, their first course had poached lobster. You know with what wine they paired with? 2001 Duhart!!! And it was great!!! Ofcourse, the main course had potatoes and beef, and they paired with 85 Lafite...

So, Nic, by now you should be a convert, depending on preparation and type of pairing...

RDD · Post by **RDD** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:57 pm

White Bordeaux is great with seafood. If I had enough money I would have been there and helped Nic drink up.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:11 pm

We had 2010 La Tour Carnet, a young, over-the-top, extracted, opposite-of-Burgundy, no-finesse-whatsoever, internationalized, high alcohol, big, fruity new age Magrez Bordeaux, with… sole.

Delicious!

RDD · Post by **RDD** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:27 pm

Not knocking.
Just preference.
I had a great sole with a white sauce and cracked pepper in Boulogne-sur-Mer
Alsace hit the spot then.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:20 pm

And of course I can't give away too much information but there is a secret hazing ceremony for all new BWE members, about all I can say is that it involves the consumption of certain select fine northern Medocs and a certain chocolate and creme/sugar dessert indigenous to the Great State of Maine.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:37 pm

I am generally pretty inflexible about what I eat with red Bordeaux...I would never drink bordeaux with an Italian pasta dish for example and generally not with fish, though I have heard that Pauillac Lamproie goes well with graves and presumably....Pauillac. More generally speaking fish matches better with Pinot, I think, especially a lighter styled one like a marsanay.

Bordeaux with Chinese? No. Curry? No. Burgers? Not usually, well not an expensive one. Barbqs? You're much better off with an Aussie Shiraz, right?

Japanese food? Well MEK, Antoine and I discovered that Japanese food goes down a treat with a nice Roulot Meursault and a Roumier Chambolle. That was in burgundy on the Sunday before BWE Bordeaux '15.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:55 pm

I've had top second growth Bordeauxs at tailgating parties before games of the Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots, matched with lobster, hamburgers, sausage, hot dogs, steak tips, chicken wings, and lots of other treats. Mmmmmm. Tom Brady and fine Bordaux wine. It just does not get any better.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:27 pm

Ian, in 2005 we had a great meal of eel and Palmer and Alter Ego at Ch. Palmer. Not your typical fish dish, it was rich and dark and matched beautifully with the wine.

RDD · Post by **RDD** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:47 pm

Initiation is a different thing.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:41 am

Very interesting topic. I have to admit that I went to a dinner in Paris, in 2004, with Winedinner.

One of the excellent match was a dos de cabillaud (cod back) with spices, with 1987 Château Mouton Rothschild. But personnally, I would have try a match with white Hermitage.

I guess I'm less adventurous than some others.

Nic

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:35 pm

David,

To each his own. I don't think that I will ever get that disgusting flavour of the Lampoie de Bordeaux out of my mouth/mind. I think it was horrible to look at and the dense oily,fishy taste was gastly....for me. I remember a few like yourself/Francois loved it but Larry and I were looking where we could spit it out. Now that's a way to ruin good Bordeaux or maybe the Palmer was used as a palate cleanser to remove the foul taste from my mouth!! Definite not a match made in heaven for us.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 4:56 pm

We had so much to eat at BWE-Bdx-2005 that I was happy to skip a main one night.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:39 pm

Yes, well I may have been the only one from our group besides Francois who enjoyed that dish.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:54 pm

Have you guys ever eaten Maine eel?
Had some at a fancy shmancy sushi place in the lower east side.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:05 pm

I eat eel at sushi places all the time. Love it.

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:03 pm

I eat that sushi eel unagi and love it with whatever sweet brown sauce they drizzle on it but they are a far cry from those Bordolaise Lamprey eels that suck on the sides of sick fresh water fish until they die and are nothing but large parasites! No wonder they taste so gross. And you`re not either Chinese or Italaian who virtually eat anything that moves.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:16 pm

Hmm, maybe there's some ancestry there that I'm just not aware of?

I also have friends that rate some bretty-ish wines I just love as DNPIM, including Pegau and some of the Talbot and Gruaud Larose bottlings. I suspect they would be more the outliers than me amongst our group.

Tom In DC · Post by **Tom In DC** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:43 am

Add me to the (short?) list of folks that thought the eel dish at Palmer was great!

sdr · Post by **sdr** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:20 pm

dstgolf wrote:David,

To each his own. I don't think that I will ever get that disgusting flavour of the Lampoie de Bordeaux out of my mouth/mind. I think it was horrible to look at and the dense oily,fishy taste was gastly....for me. I remember a few like yourself/Francois loved it but Larry and I were looking where we could spit it out. Now that's a way to ruin good Bordeaux or maybe the Palmer was used as a palate cleanser to remove the foul taste from my mouth!! Definite not a match made in heaven for us.

Not sure I even tasted the lampoie but the "sauce" it was in looked and tasted like mud, or at least what I imagine mud would taste like.

Stuart

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:00 pm

Thank god the planners left this one off the menu this time. Danielle tolerated/maybe even enjoyed the oysters which was amazing but those lampray eels would definitely have created a problem. The French certainly have a way of conning people by putting a sauce on something to disguise the disgusting underlying flavour of whatever they are covering up.

Count on this dish now has a three for.... maybe Tim/Alex would side on the for but I remember laughing with Rick J afterwards at how this was so off putting. I was shocked that Tom liked this and was put off by the pied du cochon in Paris! I must admit they were pretty disgusting as well and in no way resembled the pate de cochon that we enjoy from our French Canadian culture.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:04 am

dstgolf wrote:The French certainly have a way of conning people by putting a sauce on something to disguise the disgusting underlying flavour of whatever they are covering up.

That's a bit presumptuous. I would hope that "the French" of whom you speak would not be equally culturally insensitive and conclude from your statement that "the Canadians" are gastronomically retarded. After all, they came up with "chacon à son goût." Then again, they just might respond in kind, as seen here.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:11 am

: Tonight was Pauillac with salmon, although the fish swam away from the picture frame

DavidG wrote: ↑Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:26 pm I have had red Bordeaux with fish. No problem if the wine and food aren't a perfect match. Sometimes I can enjoy them separately at the same meal, if that makes any sense. As long as the wine and food don't clash horribly. Sometimes the food is so anti-red-wine that I won't do it. Spicy Asian is one of those. Waste of good wine IMO.

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:34 pm

With 90% of fish dishes a very definite no. It is like watching a couple divorce. Both may be fine people but they don’t belong together.

And then there are the ten per cent that do work. Smoked sable in a red wine sauce, the octopus and bone marrow at Marea. They are not perfect, but they work well enough.

To some extent, if there is fine wine on the table, the food gets simpler. If you are pouring a mature Lafite, matching it with spices or complex flavors mask what the wine is trying to show. Like listening to Beethoven’s ninth on a transistor radio.

JoelD · Post by **JoelD** » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:32 pm

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:34 pm With 90% of fish dishes a very definite no. It is like watching a couple divorce. Both may be fine people but they don’t belong together.

And then there are the ten per cent that do work. Smoked sable in a red wine sauce, the octopus and bone marrow at Marea. They are not perfect, but they work well enough.

To some extent, if there is fine wine on the table, the food gets simpler. If you are pouring a mature Lafite, matching it with spices or complex flavors mask what the wine is trying to show. Like listening to Beethoven’s ninth on a transistor radio.

I will say, thats how I felt about the 83 VCC. So many layers of flavors and spices that it felt were lessened or even muted by the very good duck

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:58 pm

I drink Bordeaux with fish (salmon, lobster, oysters) all the time. I just had that Bordeaux blend 2011 Beaulieu Vineyard the other night with some Alaska king salmon. Mmmmm.