"Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

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JimHow
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"Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by JimHow »

I just had six bottles shipped to me. I've never been concerned about my wines being "cooked" by heat from midsummer shipment. Another wine myth, I say. What do you say? Does the "cooking" of wine exist? Have there been any empirical studies of this?
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stefan
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by stefan »

It is NOT a myth, Jimbo. Leave a bottle of '89 Lynch out in 90F weather for eight hours and you will become a believer.
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AKR
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by AKR »

They will take on a distinct stewed maderized flavor. I once had a small bag of Rhones get put into my buildings package room which had all our steam pipes routed through there for a weekend when I was not around. Seepage and overheated. The three bottles had that distinct flavor (we consumed them within the month). They are not undrinkable but they will not taste as good as they should. And they probably will not keep. It seems to accelerate the aging process.

I had a bottle of wine over the weekend that had too much heat exposure and it too tasted far too evolved for where it should have been, having had other neighboring estates from the same vintage recently.

But wine, shippers, and glass are a bit tougher (and have more heat sink capacity) than commonly given credit for. So while its an issue, I do not think the hysteria some people approach this with, or the sanctimonious chest pounding some retailers make about the issue, are needed.

In the main, for things that are going to be cellared, just have them shipped in the fall/spring. There are only a few vendors who don't support/tolerate some form of temporary storage as a cost of doing business beyond their immediate environs, and for those, its rare they have access to super rare stuff anyways, so one can easily replace them.

I got spoiled having a very cold cellar early in life, and now my current home situation (no basement) means I really should be keeping far less locally.
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stefan
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by stefan »

Temperatures in the 90s affect wine almost immediately in my experience. OTOH, storing wine at, say, 73F, while unwise, is not that bad. The wine ages much more quickly than wine stored at traditional cellar temperatures and seems to lose some freshness, but does not develop the stewed fruit taste that Arv mentions. Being almost 100 years old, I purposely store younger bottles at higher temperatures, approaching 68F, just so that I can enjoy them in this world. I know that the wines will not be ruined because early on almost everything I had was stored at 68F for most of the year and the wines were not ruined.

I am talking about Bordeaux. Whites, and especially Champagne, are different, and it is very risky to store red Burgundy at 68F. Oregon PN seems to withstand 68F for some time, but I am not sure at this point for how long because I am still experimenting.
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DavidG
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by DavidG »

I agree with Stefan.

If the corks are pushed or you see leakage, it's not a good sign. But a bottle can be damaged without those obvious signs. I've also heard that a fine film of sediment on the side of a bottle can be a sign of heat damage. Sediment that is almost fused to the glass and doesn't rinse out. I've had a couple of cooked bottles that demonstrated that, but I coudn't see it until the bottle was half empty. And I've had bottles with that sort of sediment that seemed fine, so I'm not sure if it really has any probative value.
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JimHow
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by JimHow »

What is the chemistry of the "cooking" of wine?
Has every wine that has sat in a 90F UPS truck for 8 hours been "cooked"?
What about at 89 degrees? Or 85? 82? 80? Is it only a little cooked then?
What chemically happens to the wine when it is "cooked"?
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AKR
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by AKR »

I would liken it to accelerated maturation. It's not an on/off litmus type lever.

More heat - more acceleration. Perhaps the chemists here can explain.

If you are having a warm summer, you could test it by keeping one bottle in the fridge, and one in the attic (assuming yours gets hot like ours).

And then Labor Day weekend pour them blind and compare the taste difference.

A lot of these things are more interesting when they have been experienced by taste.
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Chateau Vin
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by Chateau Vin »

Isn't that the essence of Madeira wine, which was accidentally found out when wine was being transported on high seas under hot temperatures?
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AlohaArtakaHoundsong
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

I am a firm believer in cooked wine. Nevertheless empirical data from my time in Hawaii suggest to me that cooking happens at higher temps and/or longer baking times than we would imagine.

I took maybe six cases of wine with me, of different stripes, ages and types. Mainly Bordeaux and some Italians. From the mid 80s to brand spanking new. I also had a few older bottles I bought cheap shipped from retailers or auctions.

Shortly after arrival I bought a small, used Vinotemp. I stuck the more expensive 30-50 or so bottles in it (forget the actual size). The other bottles sat in styro in an uncontrolled storage/garage. Temps fluctuated between generally the low 60s and the high 80s, but I'm sure the garage was more like low seventies to mid 80s diurnally. The Vinotemp crapped out after a year. All the remaining wines were subject to these temps for up to one year, while the others were at it for a two full years.

I didn't have a single obviously cooked wine. Frankly, I don't recall noticing anything odd about even the oldest and presumably most delicate wines.

I am not in this to age wines 30 years. Neither do I just not give a shat and I would not willing abuse wine. But when I go back I'll have no problem keeping the wines under the beds or in the bottoms of closets at temps in the house ranging from high 60s to probably 80 diurnally in the house.
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AKR
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by AKR »

That is good to hear. I'm not very happy with my current closet at home.

However where we are, my wife sent me a picture of her car's temperature gauge, which is less mercurial than mine (heh!), and she was reporting 111F.

https://plus.google.com/107249774337576 ... 7576113311

So getting a delivery from the Big Brown oven trucks now is to be avoided if at all possible.

Unless you like Madeira.
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DavidG
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by DavidG »

I don't know the magic temperature number or length of time but suspect there is a spectrum. Lesser damage likely takes longer to show up and is less obvious. And Cab-based reds are probably more robust than Burgs, whites and Champagnes.
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by stefan »

>>
And Cab-based reds are probably more robust than Burgs, whites and Champagnes.
>>

Delete "probably" and I agree. My experience goes back 40 years.

Art, I suspect that your wines were not subject to high 80s for an extended period. If the ambient temperature hits even the high 80s for a short while and then drops, the wine itself will be much cooler. It is the temperature of the wine that matters. The wine in a bottle that is warm to the touch is not necessarily severely overheated. Bordeaux stored in styro in the garage in the conditions you describe should not be cooked, but certainly those bottles have aged much more than bottles stored at cellar temperatures.

Jim, I again challenge you to leave out a bottle of 89 Lynch (or another old fine wine) at 90+ degrees for 8 hours and later drink it blind alongside another 89 Lynch that was properly stored. I am not sure that 8 hours is enough to detect the decay, but 80 hours certainly is. I am not motivated to find the break point.
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JimHow
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by JimHow »

I will tell you whether a wine shipped today from MacArthur's in DC for delivery in Maine on Thursday is cooked. It has been nice but not too hot up here in Maine, not sure what it's going to be like up and down the east coast tomorrow and Thursday.
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stefan
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by stefan »

It should not be a problem, Jim. The wine is in stereo and the temperature of the liquid should not get above the low 80s. Parker claims that Bdx that hits 80F for a short time is damaged sufficiently for him to detect it, but I have serious doubts about that.

An extreme test is to microwave your wine to almost boiling, let it cool, and then taste it alongside wine from the same bottle that was not so treated. I do not recommend that you try this with a fine Bdx, but any CA cab is good for this experiment. Well, maybe not Dominus or Monte Bello, but just about any of the others because you have little to lose. :)
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AKR
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by AKR »

Nowadays some companies are shipping not in styro, but in environmentally friendly cardboard packers.

So one loses some insulative protection.

I don't see the upside in rushing shipment when its hot.

The vast majority of us have enough wine to last years without buying any more.
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DavidG
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by DavidG »

I agree your wine will probably be fine if it's red Bordeaux and shipped in styro. The trip from DC to Lewiston should be quick. It's unlikely to get hot enough in the bottle to cook it. And even if it does get warm enough to shorten the drinking window or impede long-term aging, that shouldn't be a concern if you like them younger anyway.

When I ship from Calofornia I always avoid high temps, but that's a longer trip and I'm usually looking at long-term aging. I once needed something for a summer tasting and spent the money for next-day air from CA, but it was only a single bottle.
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Jay Winton
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by Jay Winton »

Don't we all have enough wine in house to hold shipping until cooler weather? I'll ship quaffing whites in warm weather sometimes but not champagne.
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Roel
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by Roel »

On a very hot day and without my approval, Chateau Online through UPS (oven truck) delivered three bottles of Lagrange 2001's almost too hot to hold and really 'spitting' small quantities of wine. I was allowed to keep them for free and tasted them over 12 months. The wines were very good, not over-evolved (but can't comment on what would have happened over the years to come). My idea was a short but rapid temperature increasement causing the very high fills to look for a way out. The cork.
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JimHow
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by JimHow »

I have my reasons, of course, for asking that the wines be shipped in mid-summer.
Four of the bottles are 2010 Cantemerle.
One bottle is 2010 Brunello Argiano
And one is a special bottle.

The order was taken into UPS custody last night (Tuesday, June 30th) at 8:01pm.
It was processed at Landover, MD, at 9:30 pm.
It arrived at Laurel, MD, at 10:11 pm.
It departed Laurel, MD, this morning (Wednesday, July 1st), at 9:53 am.

It is scheduled to arrive in Maine tomorrow.
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AlohaArtakaHoundsong
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

JimHow wrote:I have my reasons, of course, for asking that the wines be shipped in mid-summer.
Four of the bottles are 2010 Cantemerle.
One bottle is 2010 Brunello Argiano
And one is a special bottle.

The order was taken into UPS custody last night (Tuesday, June 30th) at 8:01pm.
It was processed at Landover, MD, at 9:30 pm.
It arrived at Laurel, MD, at 10:11 pm.
It departed Laurel, MD, this morning (Wednesday, July 1st), at 9:53 am.

It is scheduled to arrive in Maine tomorrow.
I understand. The 2010s are for immediate consumption. It makes sense.

The temperature at BWI is only 105 currently. No worries.
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by Roel »

I decided to pick up a bunch of 2009 Batailleys last week by car. No transport by third party for me. I rather drive a couple of hours, but my country is tiny.
But hot... 98.6 F today, 105 F expected Saturday and we have moderate sea climate......
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JimHow
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Re: "Cooked" wine. Urban legend?

Post by JimHow »

The temps here in Maine have been around 70ish, I think I'm going to be good.
Right now my package is in Secaucus, NJ, then it will be headed for Mass. and Maine overnight with temps at 57F, and will be out for delivery by midday with temps at around 77F.
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