JimHow wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:40 pm
Not feeling real comfortable about this coming indictment.
Is this all they got? I think before you go around indicting former presidents it needs to be something existential.
Prosecutors use discretion in bringing prosecutions every day of the week, whether it is minor stuff or major stuff.
Arresting a prominent opposition politician on an up-charged misdemeanor just as he gears up his re-election campaign...feels kind of bannana-republic-y.
There's a good argument that the methods used to try to bring Trump down have done more damage to American democracy than Trump himself.
Guys
I’ve watched all of this from the sidelines and have no dog in the fight. I make it clear that I don’t support any politician, and particularly Trump or Biden.
Arresting Trump would go a long way to making the US look like a lot of corrupted, cronyist nations over here in Asia. We have kleptocracies all over the place, and in some places like Cambodia, we still have mass murderers in power. Asia is one endless shit show politically. Singapore is however something of an exception and I’ve always refused to live and work in corrupt nations.
China just loves to see political and economic disasters in the US and for that matter, just about every western country. My old homeland of Australia is also in their sights all the time as we are prepared to tell the truth - a very dangerous action these days.
I don’t give a shit about Trump and frankly it would be better if he just retired and went to a deserted island somewhere. Yet sorry I say the same about Biden. Surely the US can come up with with better candidates than these two - the choice is a blowhard or a retiree.
The other point I need to make is that the US is now not trusted by its Allies, who have often stood beside the US thru thick and thin, and in Asia, it is broadly seen as a metaphor of Biden - way past its prime, belligerent and divided.
If Biden and Trump run again there will be a round of laughter in Asia and that isn’t good for either the US or the world. Even worse, the weaknesses of the US have emboldened both Russia and China - the latter is a lot scarier - and made this crazy planet more dangerous.
After over six years of non-stop efforts by all the most powerful institutions in American life to come up with something to definitively take Trump down, we've ended up with...miscategorizing his hush money payments to a mistress in the company books? Which then apparently had to be upcharged from a misdemeanor by a politically motivated DA based on campaign finance violations? This barely rates on the scale of political malfeasance. And yes, it's going to look to the rest of the world like the U.S. political clown show is ongoing.
Claudius2 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:57 pm
Guys
I’ve watched all of this from the sidelines and have no dog in the fight. I make it clear that I don’t support any politician, and particularly Trump or Biden.
Arresting Trump would go a long way to making the US look like a lot of corrupted, cronyist nations over here in Asia. We have kleptocracies all over the place, and in some places like Cambodia, we still have mass murderers in power. Asia is one endless shit show politically. Singapore is however something of an exception and I’ve always refused to live and work in corrupt nations.
China just loves to see political and economic disasters in the US and for that matter, just about every western country. My old homeland of Australia is also in their sights all the time as we are prepared to tell the truth - a very dangerous action these days.
I don’t give a shit about Trump and frankly it would be better if he just retired and went to a deserted island somewhere. Yet sorry I say the same about Biden. Surely the US can come up with with better candidates than these two - the choice is a blowhard or a retiree.
The other point I need to make is that the US is now not trusted by its Allies, who have often stood beside the US thru thick and thin, and in Asia, it is broadly seen as a metaphor of Biden - way past its prime, belligerent and divided.
If Biden and Trump run again there will be a round of laughter in Asia and that isn’t good for either the US or the world. Even worse, the weaknesses of the US have emboldened both Russia and China - the latter is a lot scarier - and made this crazy planet more dangerous.
Well said. My friends abroad indeed laugh at the US. And one other point to add is that our economy much weaker than most here in the US will acknowledge. Troubling al the way around.
Howard Stern says John Stewart "would win in a slam dunk" if he ran for president.
You know, I've never gotten the appeal over John Stewart. I just don't think he's that funny, and he strikes me as always trying to impress how smart he is. I'm sure it's just me, because he certainly seems to have a following, but I just don't see it, myself.
Steve Colbert cracks me up, I think he's funny, great delivery. But John Stewart, not so much. But... to each his own, I guess.
marcs wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:21 pm
After over six years of non-stop efforts by all the most powerful institutions in American life to come up with something to definitively take Trump down, we've ended up with...miscategorizing his hush money payments to a mistress in the company books? Which then apparently had to be upcharged from a misdemeanor by a politically motivated DA based on campaign finance violations? This barely rates on the scale of political malfeasance. And yes, it's going to look to the rest of the world like the U.S. political clown show is ongoing.
This is just the tip of the iceberg, which of course you know. And come on, Al Capone was taken down by tax evasion — law enforcement has to go with what they can prosecute. What, because a criminal gets away with his more serious crimes, he shouldn’t get prosecuted for his comparatively minor ones? Cause that’s what your arguing.
I read comments like this, and I’m skeptical that there’s any criminal case against Trump that would satisfy a naysayer. Assuming we know what (and if) charges will be brought against him, he falsified his business records — which the circumstantial evidence indicated he did systematically, for decades, which is a serious crime — and he should be prosecuted.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for throwing the book at the guy for any number of his more serious crimes and misdemeanors, but if the DA thinks this is the case that will stick, so be it.
JimHow wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:40 pm
Not feeling real comfortable about this coming indictment.
Is this all they got? I think before you go around indicting former presidents it needs to be something existential.
Prosecutors use discretion in bringing prosecutions every day of the week, whether it is minor stuff or major stuff.
This concerns me as well - it's taken them THIS long to come forward with something, which imho, seems to lack any real teeth (you could even argue that former presidential contenders could have been tried for the same thing - not to name any names - under the same 175). If this is politically motivated, my fear is that in the process of trying to discredit a potential re-election campaign, they might actually be emboldening his base to come out to the polls in droves IF this doesn't stick and it backfires horribly as this would fit his narrative to a T. The optics here are horrible from abroad as well - it saddens me to think of what this country (we) have become....on a personal level, just wish we could actually start caring for one another, having a heart, listening to each other, engaging honestly in conversation about real issues, focusing on the 95% we all have in common rather than differences, etc. a man can dream, I suppose, but these are frightening times....
JimHow wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:40 pm
Not feeling real comfortable about this coming indictment.
Is this all they got? I think before you go around indicting former presidents it needs to be something existential.
Prosecutors use discretion in bringing prosecutions every day of the week, whether it is minor stuff or major stuff.
This concerns me as well - it's taken them THIS long to come forward with something, which imho, seems to lack any real teeth (you could even argue that former presidential contenders could have been tried for the same thing - not to name any names - under the same 175). If this is politically motivated, my fear is that in the process of trying to discredit a potential re-election campaign, they might actually be emboldening his base to come out to the polls in droves IF this doesn't stick and it backfires horribly as this would fit his narrative to a T. The optics here are horrible from abroad as well - it saddens me to think of what this country (we) have become....on a personal level, just wish we could actually start caring for one another, having a heart, listening to each other, engaging honestly in conversation about real issues, focusing on the 95% we all have in common rather than differences, etc. a man can dream, I suppose, but these are frightening times....
One of the conspiracy theories about this is that it's actually an effort by Democrats to help Trump win the Republican primary, on the theory that he will be easier to beat than other candidates. A spectacle of Trump being marched around in handcuffs for a paperwork violation is likely to energize and bring out his base like nothing else. It also forces other Rs to rally around him -- a bunch of House Republican leaders have already announced a Congressional investigation into the charges. And of course there's nothing here that would stop him from running.
The theory would be less credible if we didn't know that in the 2016 primary high level Dems were proposing a strategy of promoting "pied piper" extremist candidates, including Trump, in the Republican primary also on the theory that he was beatable.
Personally I think this is Bragg, who is in trouble locally in NYC, trying to promote himself and make it impossible for NYC Dems to question him.
Surprisingly large victory for the liberal judge in Wisconsin. Not sure if it means anything lasting about national politics, but the pundits sure want to ascribe it to how overturning Roe has upended political dynamics in swing states. I do know how insanely gerrymandered Wisconsin is, even by today’s standards, so this judge could really shake that up.
I was all pumped up about that, then I read that the Florida-of-the-North has elected a Republican super majority in the state senate that allows them to impeach the governor, state Supreme Court judges, dog catchers. That state is crazier than Florida.
JimHow wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:00 pm
I was all pumped up about that, then I read that the Florida-of-the-North has elected a Republican super majority in the state senate that allows them to impeach the governor, state Supreme Court judges, dog catchers. That state is crazier than Florida.
Yeah, and that gerrymand played a big part in their supermajority.
So, it seems pretty obvious what happens if Trump is acquitted, but what ensues if he’s convicted of one or more felony? Appeal after appeal? Could it eventually get to the Supremes?
My Republican friends are patting themselves on the back that the United States is a country where a former ruler can actually be prosecuted in a court of law i.e. does not have some sort of immunity.
That sounds good, but some questions remain:
- Does anyone believe that Trump will actually spend a day in prison?
- Is it not terribly depressing that someone like him could actually be elected in the first place?
- Isn't it about time the American electoral system was reformed and the Electoral College supressed?
I would vote for Donald John Trump before I would vote for Ron DeSanctis.
If I were at my last breath and I had a chance to vote for Donald Trump over Ron DeSanctis?
I would, in my weariness, vote for the one with the orange hair.
I wouldn't vote for either. Rather write down the name of my daughter's dog, the pup is more honest, more humane and has more empathy than either of these two evil characters.
I wonder why the global lean towards autocracy.
Is it the end product of racial hatred?
Is it in fact worse now than in the past?
It seems to be in this country, anyway.
JimHow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:39 pm
I wonder why the global lean towards autocracy.
Is it the end product of racial hatred?
Is it in fact worse now than in the past?
It seems to be in this country, anyway.
I reckon it's mostly the second one, but a contributing factor is misinformation-- particularly through social media and the right/left leaning regular media...And it's not just in this country, but almost in every part of the globe...
Or maybe it's just the cycles of insanity mongering after stretch of relative prosperity and happiness...
This indictment is a major blow to American democracy (to the extent such a thing exists).
How anyone could believe that it’s a good idea for a sitting President to have his Justice Department indict his rival in next years election on an administrative process crime is beyond me.
Yesterday morning I heard someone advise Trump to not buy any green bananas. Little did he know how accurate that advice would be. They still won't be ripe by next Tuesday.
I totally disagree with Marcs' characterization. The crime is not one of administrative process - not even a little bit. It is born of a megalomaniac's complete disregard for the rule of law. The indictment is a good thing for American democracy - as it helps dispel the notion of a two tiered justice system.
My wife and I will be popping a cork tonight to celebrate the fact of Trump being indicted for federal crimes - after way too long. It couldn't be happening to a more fitting recipient.
Of course it’s bad for democracy. Everything about Trump has been bad for democracy. But giving him yet another free pass just because 1/3 of our nation are racist, homophobic, anti-vax, conspiracy theory crazies who continue to support a criminal charlatan would be even worse for our democracy.
Whatever you think of the wisdom of prosecuting illegal hush money payment to a pornstar, divulging or selling (or planning to sell) our most sensitive national defense secrets is something different entirely.
I learned a while ago that it is impossible to engage on any basis of expecting intellectual consistency or principle with those driven mad by Trump's trolling -- they have simply lost any capacity to reason and simply want Trump to be taken down by whatever means necessary. These are obviously highly technical process accusations, around actions that have happened many times by other politicians but not been prosecuted, and rightly so IMO (for example, Biden retained classified documents, Hillary's private email server seems pretty clearly to have been a Federal crime at least as serious as what is being alleged here, etc. etc.).
There is no accusation here of selling national sensitive national secrets. ('Divulging' would be an interesting case since leaks to the press of classified information are routine in DC). Blanquito knows that, or would know it if he stopped to think for a second, but really the accusation doesn't matter here -- all that matters is the person accused and the obsession with destroying him by any means necessary.
Trump has been harmful to our system. But the damage done by his enemies obsession with bending the system to remove him from power has unfortunately been even greater. I will say however that the Democrats fight this game far more effectively than Trump's side can and will win in the end. Trump's fans chanted "lock her up" but Trump and the Republican party did nothing institutionally with their power to follow up on that.They toyed rhetorically with authoritarian tropes but didn't make use of governmental powers to execute on them. Dems said lock him up and they meant it.
There was no good alternative here between indicting or not indicting. Tremendous downsides for our country either way.
That said, I have to agree with Racer Chris and Blanquito.
There’s so much that could be said here, about his knowingly lying about what he had and obstructing justice repeatedly, but this quote from the recorded conversation about plans he’d ordered be drawn up for a possible attack on Iran compelled me to conclude that Jack Smith had to indict: “Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this. This was done by the military and given to me.”
Hmmm... It seems ‘administrative process’ seems to be the talking point and becoming buzz word, akin to some spin doctors’ linguistics.
Instead of already declaring it as administrative process, it’s better to look at the facts and go from there. I understand that when you leave the whitehouse, someone else is packing things for you, and it’s quite possible that they made a mistake inadvertently or simply didn’t pay much attention to not pack confidential docs. Bush had them, pence had them, biden had them, trump had them and most likely every previous administration might have had sensitive docs that they are not supposed to have. That’s fine. But once realized they had docs they aren’t supposed to, then return them and the matter is closed. This in itself is a two tier justice, because if it were an ordinary citizen or intel person in possession of the docs, DOJ will be all over it and that person gets charged. I feel that as former high office holders, President/VP are treated differently when the DOJ or National Archives asks nicely first to return the docs, which doesn’t happen to ordinary citizens. That’s fine..But the notion that if they break the law even beyond that— nothing should be done because it is bad for democracy because less than fifty percent of people will get upset because of politics is silly. So it becomes a slippery slope of not charging anyone holding high office for anything at all. That’s why i say— let’s go with the facts, and let’s go with what the law says and I am ok with a little slack for high office holders as elected officials.
In Trump’s case, as far as I understand, the facts are different (and I will course correct myself if the facts turn out to be different).
Painting the issue merely as “just retaining the docs” or “Trump trolling” or “smells bad” is just disingenuous at best. The National Archives asked first nicely (National Archives already knew some confidential docs are missing) and they were told by Trump team they didn’t have them. When National Archives insisted, Trump said that by merely taking them with him, the docs are already declassified! So NA referred the matter to DOJ, and when DOJ got involved, they were told the same thing while still hoarding bunch of classified docs. On top of it, the Trump team had signed saying that all and any such docs were returned. Well, when fbi came knocking, Trump did indeed have the said docs. Instead of returning the docs, why lie about them, why sign papers under oath that they didn’t have any docs or why say that as president he can declassify anything that he has in possession? And on top of it, why even say that by merely thinking about it he can declassify anything, and therefore whatever he takes away from office, it is deemed declassified...
For me, the issue is not he taking the docs with him. The issue is-- not return them when asked to, lie about it under penalty, and obstruct the doj by moving the docs around (that’s what doj is contending and let’s see what the courts say if they agree with this doj’s contention). If doj is proven right, then it’s good for our democracy that no one is above the law.
And that’s why he was charged...
If the facts prove otherwise (that he didn’t lie, he didn’t falsify and he didn’t obstruct doj), then also it’s good for democracy since DOJ cannot be weaponized and the courts and justice prevails over such tactics.
So I say, yes— people have simply lost the capacity to reason with no intellectual consistency— each side pointing fingers on the otherside accusing the same thing. Instead of simply reason through some political lens, I urge to reason based on facts, not conclude facts based on reasonings.
So let’s see what the courts think of which aide of arguments will withstand the scrutiny of law based on established facts. Based on established facts, I will be the first one to call out the side that is wrong irrespective of whichever side that happens to be.
“Documents Included Nuclear Programs and Attack Plans…
Donald Trump illegally kept documents concerning U.S. nuclear programs and the nation’s vulnerabilities to military attack, the 49-page indictment showed.”
Yeah, okay, this is a witch hunt, a nothing burger, sure, okay… given what we know about decades of Trump corrupt, grift, megalomania, narcissism, ties to Putin and organized crime, et cetera, just why, why, would he want to keep such documents? All perfectly innocent? Suuurree.
I'm both a lawyer and a politician. Prosecutors decline to bring charges against rotten people EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK. Who do you think was worse, Donald Trump or Lyndon Johnson, who entered politics out of poverty and emerged with unlimited millions in wealth, never having "earned" anything other than his $20,000 a year salary as a member of Congress. I'm going to go read the indictment. Unless he's selling nuclear secrets to Vlad, this is nothing more than Central and South American banana republic politics. Be careful what you ask for, my left wing friends.
