President Trump

[Blanquito]

Reading an interesting article about the rise and fall of Rudy Giuliani: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/16/opin ... trump.html

Therein is a great line mentioned, penned no less by a member of the Trump election legal team:

"It’s all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mother ship."

If one line can come to sum up a presidency, and indeed at this stage, an entire political party, this might be it.

[JimHow]

Who are we betting on as the "break out" debater tonight?
Let's get it on!
Other than Little Penis from Florida, I'm actually interested in hearing what these douche bags have to say!

[stefan]

We were so tired of hearing about all the crimes committed and condoned and denied that we skipped the debate and watched a couple of episodes of Better Call Saul.

[JimHow]

I watched for about a half hour and was quickly bored, watched the Johnny Manziel Story on Netflix.

[Chateau Vin]

I watched for about a half hour and was quickly bored, watched the Johnny Manziel Story on Netflix.

Lol. He is probably the second biggest bust in football draft. I never believed that the dude was as good as the sports world painted. And I declined to donate money towards stadium expansion when the alumni association came calling...

[stefan]

>>
I declined to donate money towards stadium expansion when the alumni association came calling.
>>

Good for you! Unfortunately, one of my NSF grants has to pay something for the stadium every year.

I was scared to death that Jerry Jones was going to draft J.F.F. Fortunately, he listened to his son and other CB executives (and maybe coaches).

[Blanquito]

The face of a madman:

[Blanquito]

one of my NSF grants has to pay something for the stadium every year.

Paying for early childhood education is a government-caused misappropriation of tax payers' hard-earned money, but paying for football is as American as apple pie!

[jal]

The face of a madman:

Or a snake oil salesman:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canad ... gn=KARANGA

[Musigny 151]

They released the wrong picture

cid:A027BB9C-CC80-4C44-B417-15D14A0D7747

[Blanquito]

The face of a madman:

King Lear anyone?

[JimHow]

He who laughs last laughs best.
There is a VERY, very long way to go in this saga. Many years ahead, at least 5-10 years of pretrial litigation, trial litigation, post-trial litigation, appeals, post-conviction review, etc., etc.
We shall see how it unfurls. The left should not be gloating just yet.
This mug shot business is a disgrace and embarrassment to our country, whether it is Orange Head's fault, or political persecution, or whatever.
I've always been for restraint from government law enforcement. There was absolutely no compelling reason why that mug shot needed to be taken. Shame.

[tim]

The mug shot needed to be taken to demonstrate that status does not put you above the law.

I don't think the left is gloating at all. The left doesn't believe that Trump will be held accountable for his crimes. He will get away with it. Populism often comes at the expense of the law. The fact that Georgia passed a law that allows the legislature to dismiss a DA is an example of that. Trump will never go to prison regardless of his crimes. And it demonstrates just how corrupt the US system of justice actually is. Unfortunately, Trump has exposed the weaknesses in a system that was held up as the model for the civilized world.

If he did the crimes, he should do the time. But that is not the sentiment of a vast segment of the population.

And I'm sorry but WTF? Trump isn't a king. Why the F wouldn't he be subject to the same law as any other person in the US? The real outrage, disgrace and embarrassment should be that he wasn't required to do a mugshot for the other criminal charges that he faces. THAT is the shame.

[Blanquito]

Given Trump’s advanced age and evidently very poor conditioning/obesity, he’s as likely to be dead as incarnated before the final smoke on the endless litigation clears.

[DavidG]

What Tim said, every word.

[JimHow]

Do you think Bill Clinton broke any laws, Tim?
How about Dubya?
And who elected that Georgia legislature, people from Mars?
I hope the activist prosecutions from the Biden justice department and the left leaning state prosecution offices do not backfire and put Orange Head back in office. It is clearly solidifying his nomination, whereupon he will go up against a feeble, very unpopular incumbent in a multi-candidate general election. I can easily see him eeking out PA, WI, MI in such a scenario, as well as GA, AZ, etc., as his base rages against four indictments from the left.
The God Bless America pontificating about no one being above the law is pretty laughable, we have a history of politicians from both sides getting away with literally murder. Ted Kennedy killed a woman and yet he was glorified as a Senate icon and is buried at Arlington. I would argue just the opposite of what Timmy is saying: This is not a case of the rich and powerful getting away with crimes, it is a case of selective prosecution by the political opposite side. It’s what they do in Russia and other third world countries, using the courts as a pretext to display “justice” when in fact it’s just political retribution. We’re seeing it in Russia as we speak, and Israel, etc., etc. As I’ve said before, Trump is a political problem that needs to be dealt with politically. We beat him last time, let’s send him into retirement in 2024 one last time, fair and square. The left is going to fuck this up again, as they usually do. They are their own worst enemies.

[tim]

The man literally tried to overturn a Presidential election he lost. Do I think Clinton or Dubya committed crimes? Not in the same sense, no. And Trump committed many many many more crimes than the ones he was charged with. Fraud, sexual assault, bribery, the list is endless.

Other countries are not afraid to prosecute their former leaders if they commit crimes. Why does the US treat theirs like royalty?

[tim]

Also, Jim, I completely agree with you about the political ramifications of this. There is no doubt that these prosecutions will motivate his base and drive voter turnout on the right. And I also agree that people are not equal under the law. Prosecutors have discretion about who they charge and when. And some people get a better defense than others for the same crimes. Where I disagree is that Trump is not simply a political problem. He himself accurately stated that he can shoot someone on fifth avenue and wouldn't lose voters. It goes beyond politics.

[JimHow]

I think that Trump mug shot helps him more than hurts him.
I think he looks iconic, bigger than life (to his supporters). Churchillian.

[JimHow]

Dare I say it, he actually looks kind of good in that picture.
Strong. When I watch him at these rallies he looks disheveled, tired, pasty, he has whatever sprayed on his face.
In this picture he looks like Mount Rushmore. A postage stamp portrait.
He actually looks like someone who could be 6'4", 215 lbs. He looks handsome, chiseled.
I'm telling you guys, this stuff is going to backfire.

[JimHow]

Ha, I just read that Maggie Haberman said that Trump thinks he looks like Churchill in that picture.
I'm telling you, this is the best we've seen him look in years.

[DavidG]

I'm not swayed by the whataboutism, Jim.
And I don't care if this makes him look stronger to his loony followers.

Trump tried to kill democracy. A much bigger deal than someone being killed in a drunk driving accident, as tragic as it was, or lying about oral sex in the West Wing. And directly related to his duties. I'm sure other Presidents

I bet you've obtained not guilty verdicts for clients that actually did it. Or plea bargained for a less onerous sentence. Nothing wrong with that. Critical protection and another essential component of our democracy. But they all went through the process. Didn't get a "never mind, we're gonna leave you alone" without actually facing the music (as did Clinton). Without that process, we're no longer a nation of laws. Trump should go through the process. I think the evidence is there to convict him, but I don't think that will happen. Nevertheless, he has to be prosecuted.

This is a case about the rich and powerful getting away with crimes. You believe that it is primarily politically motivated. Understandable from your perspective as a former politician and defense lawyer. I can't claim to be free of bias either, but if a Democrat had done what Trump did I would be just as fervent in my desire to see them prosecuted and convicted.

In any case, any attempt to overturn a legitimate election is inherently political. Makes it inevitable that the perpetrator's supporters would spin any effort to bring him/her to justice as purely political. Not buying it. Can't remove the political overtones, but prosecution here is primarily in defense of the country and the peaceful transition of power.

[Blanquito]

If we can’t/shouldn’t prosecute Trump for what he did — holding a dagger at the very beating heart of democracy and nearly succeeding — what is the point of laws?, crime and punishment?, all equal under god (or at least all white men who own property, but you get the drift)?

Maybe the hush money payments to the prostitute and former porn star should be overlooked at too trivial (can’t believe Trump has normalized that sentence), but he went after the very thing most worth fighting for.

The GOP has clearly been an anti-democracy party for decades, chipping away at our voting rights year after year (see bill just passed in N.C.), gerrymandering our democracy into irrelevance, and we need to fight that death by a thousand cuts onslaught as well, but Trump when nuclear on us and we have to at least try to hold him accountable or the USA as we have known it is DOA.

[stefan]

On another, but not totally unrelated, matter: What do you think about the impending impeachment trial for Ken Paxton, the Attorney General of the (one time great state) Texas?

[JCNorthway]

From what I've read (limited coverage up north here), it sounds like there is quite a bit of evidence to support the allegations.

[JimHow]

I just don't see it, David/Patrick.
Politics ain't beanbags.
He TRIED to play hardball politics with the state legislatures and the courts, but he failed.
The political system held, with the help of the legal system.
There were shenanigans in Chicago and Texas when Kennedy beat Nixon in 1960.
Read about the stuff that went on when Lincoln won his first election.
Those were extra-democratic elections.
The young yuppie Republicans who were beating down the voting clerk's doors in Broward County during Gore/Bush in 2000...
Politics is rough. It always has been, from the very beginning.
John Adams thought he was cheated by Thomas Jefferson.
What Trump and the GOP tried in 2020 was dirty politics. Trump and the Republicans tried dirty politics, and fortunately they failed.
The system was rocked, but it held.
Now Democratic prosecutors have waited to bring four indictments against the opposition leader during a presidential election cycle.

As for Jan. 6th:
He gave a speech, a bunch of idiots marched down Constitution Ave.
Everyone of those assholes who entered the Capitol should go to jail (the majority didn't climb the walls).
I think the sentences have been too lenient for most of those assholes.
But I see zero evidence he conspired with the proud boys, or anyone else.
He didn't supply them with guns.
He said he himself was going to march to the Capitol. But he did NOT do it.
The crime was the lax security there that day.

As for the documents case.
As I said before, show me he actually did something nefarious with those documents and we'll have a different discussion.
Biden, Pence and others held onto documents. If he returned the documents, he wouldn't have been prosecuted. He didn't because he thinks he's above the law. Bill Clinton thought he was above the law too. Heck, Clinton should have been kicked out of the White House not for his federal crimes of perjury, but because of his hostile sexual harassment work environment. I equate Trump not giving back the documents on the same level as Clinton perjuring himself in a legal proceeding.

As for the Georgia case. He was awful. He tried to pressure the GA Secretary of State and governor.
He was LBJ on steroids. "Find me 11,000 votes." Well, they DIDN'T find him 11,000 votes.
When I heard that statement, which we all knew about not long after it was made, I never felt like, wow, this guy just committed a crime.
I thought what he was doing was awful, rotten politics.
But he didn't use force, or have the government or military intervene.
He tried to get his relief in the courts. And he failed.
And now the local Democratic prosecutors in one county in Georgia have their mug shot.
Wait next time when it happens to a Democrat.

And then.... He left the White House on his helicopter, and flew back to Florida.
He left. And Biden took office, took up residency at the White House.
The system held.

As for the New York charges... I mean, even many Democratic legal scholars think those charges are nonsense.

Donald Trump is an awful human being. By losing in 2016, the Democrats have nobody but themselves to blame.
Failure of Democratic Party leadership left us with three more ultraconservative Supreme Court justices.
And yet, even the Republican judges, even the Trump-appointed judges, even the ultraconservative Supreme Court Trump-appointed judges, all ruled against him. The system weathered the storm.
Show me he tried to alter the codes in the voting machines in Georgia, and I’ll tell you he should go away for 20 years.
Show me he sent nuclear secrets to Putin from those boxes at Mar-a-Lago, and I’ll tell you he should be sent away for life for treason.
Likewise, show me direct communications on Jan 6th with the rednecks climbing the walls, then he committed crimes and should go to prison.
But I see none of that.
Through all the nonsense following the election, from the moment at midnight that Orange called for the counting to stop, through Rudy's press conference with the hair stuff running down, through the Kracken-lady's antics, I just NEVER felt there was any realistic chance that Orange was going to "overthrow" an election that he lost by, what, 8 million votes? I thought it was a circus, but I never really thought "democracy was in danger." Unlike Timmy, I thought the old US of A actually stood proud during these days. The generals didn't take over. The tanks didn't come rolling into Fulton County. Unlike what goes on in Thailand, and Myanmar, and Russia, and Cuba, and the Sudan, and Tiannamen Square, and dozens of other places, Trump did NOT circumvent the system. Instead, he left Washington, a little, broken man, with his tail between his legs. Why? Because of us lawyers. Sober-minded lawyers and judges at the state and appellate levels prevailed. And the so-called "attack on democracy" petered out. There were no big riots in the streets, or political assassinations. I remember the WSJ editorial board saying at one point: Really? Do Trump and the Republicans really think that they are just going to reverse the votes in Nevada, and Georgia, and Arizona, and Penn, and Michigan, and Wisconsin, and the country is just going to be okay with that? It was NEVER going to happen.
Some rednecks tried to kidnap the governor Michigan.... We'll see ya, guys, in about 25 years. Have fun in prison.
In the end, after a pandemic and an unusual election involving record numbers of mail-in ballots, the Democrats prevailed.
In a landslide, really. And if their policies are so strong, then they'll win again in 2024. If not, they won't.

But FOUR separate criminal prosecutions against the opposition leader running for president? C'mon, man.
The left is playing with some major fire. I'm not as nonchalant about this as you guys are.

[DavidG]

I hear you Jim. But I’m not giving passes for failure to successfully pull off the heist.

[Racer Chris]

According to a couple of conservative legal scholars (Luettig & Tribe), Trump is constitutionally ineligible to hold office after taking part in an insurrection. All it takes is one Secretary of the State to refuse to put him on the ballot. Of course it will be tested at the supreme court level, but it is likely to happen.

[tim]

Why are these prosecutions so important? Trump has been living in the world of facts don't matter for so long that he has become adept at ignoring the rules completely. For him, there are no rules, only power. Courts are different, they have rules. And criminal courts are different than civil courts, which is where Trump has mostly engaged in his life.

Simply forcing Trump to abide by a set of rules is 9/10ths of the battle. The criminal process forces him to do that. Unless he bribes a bunch of judges, which I have no doubt he is capable of, he must follow the rules and be subject to them.

[JimHow]

There was a good op-Ed today in the NYT on jury trials and how the criminal jury trial system may end up being our salvation.
Nobody should assume that they won't be able to get a jury to reach unanimous verdicts.
In my experience jurors take their jobs VERY seriously, even in the most divisive cases.
I've litigated about 160 criminal jury trials over my career and I've had only 3 hung juries.

[tim]

I'm curious: did they retry any of the hung jury trials?

[JimHow]

No. Hung juries in those particular cases ended up being victories for the defense, as they offered misdemeanor pleas for no jail. One of them was a bad child porn case where my client was facing at least ten years, they were hung 7-5 for acquittal. He walked away with a non-sex-offense misdemeanor with no jail time. We thought we were going to get a hung jury in the Alaska case as the jury was out 4 days, but they came back with guilty.

[JimHow]

Vivek Ramasdildo. Surely this "millennial" <rolls eyes> has brought us to an even greater level of fascist lies, no?
He has no chance of being president, of course, alone because he is a non-Caucasian in the most racist party since the Reicht.
That doesn't make him any less scary. Like the Big Man himself (and Robert K Jr and others), TRUTH does not matter.
Vivek won't be the next president. But what long-lasting, additional harm to our teetering democracy will he exact before he exits the stage?

[Blanquito]

It may be irrelevant in a highest-profile case like this one, but the conviction rates (>95% I read recently) for US/Federal Prosecutors are impressive.

[stefan]

Lucie calls him Vivek Ramaswarmy.

[JimHow]

He is both swarmy AND a dildo. How low will we sink? It seems like there is no bottom.

[JimHow]

They say Vivek is about to overtake Little Penis Ron in the polls.
Omg can these two insipid rats just eat each other to a slow excruciating death in some rotten street corner somewhere.

[Musigny 151]

He is a Trump mini me. He is also a serious candidate for running mate. A perfect addition, annoying, naive, and an asshole.

[Chateau Vin]

He is both swarmy AND a dildo. How low will we sink? It seems like there is no bottom.

And smarmy too...

All these acolytes are no contestants for Trump. They are just auditioning to become his running mate or get some position in his administration. Hence sucking up to him...

The GOP field and the leadership have been playing limbo for quite a while now...

[tim]

Trump likes to be fawned over but he doesn’t like to be upstaged. I doubt Vivek will get the VP nod. I am betting on Kari Lake.