President Trump

[DavidG]

I’m not comparing today to the Holocaust. I'm comparing Trump to Hitler and I hope it does make you very uncomfortable. Do I think he’ll murder 12 million Americans? No. I think we’ll wake up before it gets that far. But he’s already gotten too far down the road to eliminating freedoms and persecuting millions. The time to wake up is now. We need to be able to use the memory of Hitler to sound the alarm. Today. Otherwise the memory of the Nazis and the horrors of the Holocaust will amount to nothing more than reverent respect for those murdered. That’s important, but it doesn’t get us anywhere with "Never again." And I’d add to that we shouldn’t even get close.

[JimHow]

Amen, DavidG.
I have no idea what the limits of this lunatic are.
He thinks Putin and Kim Jong are neat.

[JCNorthway]

I share many of the concerns voiced here. At the same time, I am troubled by some of the ways that those opposed to Trump are choosing to exercise that opposition. I fear that their behavior may be self-defeating in the end, galvanizing those on the fringe who might not be swayed support him (I'm talking to you, Maxine Waters). Somehow the "resistance" needs to be better than the perpetrator. I know doing that sometimes means biting one's tongue and resisting the instinctive reaction. But only by not playing his game will the opposition be able to succeed (and stand tall in the process). There may indeed become a time for "revolution," but we are not there yet. We need to find a way to make our constitutional system work rather than abandoning what has served this country well (for the most part) for over 200 years.

[JimHow]

Boy, I know, Jon, but it's not just the recent insanity, it's the Mussolini-like fascist thuggery we saw in Trump's campaign crowds, the "beat him up, throw him out" chants, etc.
And our Supreme Court is on board, too.
We are in a time of thug politics, where niceties are getting us absolutely nowhere.
Here's a scenario that terrifies me: The Dems win a razor thin victory in the presidential campaign in 2020. Trump calls the election "rigged." Fox and the Republican Congressional majority supports him. It goes on to the partisan, Republican controlled Supreme Court.
What happens then?

[felixp21]

Boy, I know, Jon, but it's not just the recent insanity, it's the Mussolini-like fascist thuggery we saw in Trump's campaign crowds, the "beat him up, throw him out" chants, etc.
And our Supreme Court is on board, too.
We are in a time of thug politics, where niceties are getting us absolutely nowhere.
Here's a scenario that terrifies me: The Dems win a razor thin victory in the presidential campaign in 2020. Trump calls the election "rigged." Fox and the Republican Congressional majority supports him. It goes on to the partisan, Republican controlled Supreme Court.
What happens then?

from an outsider looking in, that scenario is a very, very long shot unless the Dems start actually campaigning and not simply throwing mud. I wish some sanity would return to USA politics, and the Democrats find themselves an excellent presidential candidate who can throw this idiot out of office. But as it stands right now, my bet is that he will be returned with an increased majority.

[JimHow]

I totally agree, Felix.
There is nobody in the Democratic Party who can beat DJT in 2020.

[JCNorthway]

Third party candidate? Highly improbable in our electoral system.

[JimHow]

The great white hopes in the Democratic Party are Uncle Joe Biden, Bernie Sanders, and Liz Warren, average age 93.5.
We are doomed.

[JCNorthway]

I am not privy to any inside info on this race, but one of the highest ranking Democrats in the NY congressional ranks has lost to a seemingly left leaning female - with Hispanic sounding last name. This may not have any implications outside of the district, but I found it interesting.

[Racer Chris]

The national debt is going to reach record levels long before the 2020 election.
Trump will be run out of the white house on his failed fiscal policies which are already destroying a booming economy.
The republican congress will be seen as complicit in helping him undermine the economy by the time the midterm elections take place, and both houses will flip to progressive democrats - opening the door to impeachment proceedings beginning in 2019.

[JCNorthway]

RC, I am concerned that many people who are living paycheck to paycheck (or in fact with no paycheck), will feel like the President and Congress of the last several administrations have let them down. As a result, I am doubtful that they will blame Trump for debt increases and an economic downturn - Fox will find a way to blame Obama! - and they will be encouraged, if not convinced, to blame sources other than the current President. I think there is a fair amount of evidence that facts hold much less sway with these people than does what we used to call "propaganda" in the former Soviet Union and current Russia.

I hope that I am wrong about that.

[Racer Chris]

This is the kind of democrat who will be taking over the reins in Washington soon.
https://secondnexus.com/news/mj-hegar-new-ad-doors/

[JCNorthway]

Jim, I am somewhere between you and RC. I don't anticipate any landslide reaction to the current administration - there are scarily a lot of our(my) friends who believe in that stuff. However, I am cautiously crossing my fingers that enough voters in the right districts will cast their votes and bring in a change in the majority parties in both chambers in 2018. I agree that 2020 POTUS is totally up for grabs at this point.

[jal]

The nation is getting more and more divided. Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez beats Joseph Crowley and the Democratic Party is turning left towards Sanders, while the Republicans have sold themselves to the Trump devil.
And David, I am very concerned. It may not feel like Hitler and Stalin in 2020, but it's beginning to resemble Berlusconi and Mitterrand at best and Mussolini and Chavez/Maduro at worse.
I am very pessimistic about the future.

[jal]

And Chris, this ad is what I dislike about politics.
Catchy, angry, resourceful yes but says frankly nothing about the candidate opinions. I know what she's against, I know she had to overcome adversity, but I can't tell what she wants to accomplish except for women's rights and kicking doors. Lots of style, short on substance. No wonder voter turnout is so low.

[Racer Chris]

And Chris, this ad is what I dislike about politics.
Catchy, angry, resourceful yes but says frankly nothing about the candidate opinions. I know what she's against, I know she had to overcome adversity, but I can't tell what she wants to accomplish except for women's rights and kicking doors. Lots of style, short on substance. No wonder voter turnout is so low.

My wife thinks this is one of the best political ads she's ever seen.
The purpose is to motivate people to give her a closer look. I'm sure her webpage has plenty of information about what she is for.
Rather than waiting to be spoon fed, a little effort is required. Difficult, I know.
You may not feel like participating but there are plenty of women who do.

[DavidG]

Voters will believe anything if it appeals to their emotions. This is how Trump got in and it’s why I’m much less confident than Chris about a blue wave. Trump and the Rs have had a lot more practice at building and perfecting their propaganda machine. That they’ve got Fox in their pocket is widely known, but the stooges at the other networks aren’t much better.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez tapped into some of that identity politics/emotionalism to beat an establishment D in yesterday’s primary. We need more of that to defeat the Rs at the polls, but the divisiveness it promotes is not a good thing for the country. I’m with you Jacques on that point.

OTOH, if we’re in an electoral war, I sure as hell don’t want to lose to the party that’s become home to the racists. It won’t be an easy battle. Rs have bested Ds at a lot more than propaganda. They’ve done a better job of taking over state legislatures, giving them the upper hand at gerrymandering. And they’ve methodically made inroads into the courts.

[jal]

And Chris, this ad is what I dislike about politics.
Catchy, angry, resourceful yes but says frankly nothing about the candidate opinions. I know what she's against, I know she had to overcome adversity, but I can't tell what she wants to accomplish except for women's rights and kicking doors. Lots of style, short on substance. No wonder voter turnout is so low.

My wife thinks this is one of the best political ads she's ever seen.
The purpose is to motivate people to give her a closer look. I'm sure her webpage has plenty of information about what she is for.
Rather than waiting to be spoon fed, a little effort is required. Difficult, I know.
You may not feel like participating but there are plenty of women who do.

I really did look, Chris. I still have very little idea what she stands for. Here's her web page: https://www.mjfortexas.com it contains a few buzz phrases but that's about it.
Her wikipedia page is almost blank.

David, we are in agreement, whether you say Hitler and I say Mussolini is down to semantics.

BTW, I'm now reading Berlin Noir by Philip Kerr, it's a detective in Berlin in 1936, and 1938. It may be fiction but the portraits of the characters and the atmosphere in the town are down right scary

[Racer Chris]

I really did look, Chris. I still have very little idea what she stands for.

Hmm, without looking any deeper,the 3 campaign pledges on her homepage look pretty substantive to me.

[jal]

I really did look, Chris. I still have very little idea what she stands for.

Hmm, without looking any deeper,the 3 campaign pledges on her homepage look pretty substantive to me.

Ok, I guess I just need more info....

[JimS]

Well, yet another negative development with Anthony Kennedy's retirement hitting the newswires a few minutes ago. I hate to think of the long-term ramifications of this (and quite possibly more to come) as Supreme Court composition will last well beyond DT's reign - I'm relatively younger, consider myself pretty open-minded, and gave DT a fair shake for the first few months, but this is about the worst I have felt about the future in my albeit relatively short, adult life.

Sigh.....guess revisiting Roe v. Wade will be first up on the list of turning back time?

[JimHow]

I tremble at this news, JimS.

[AKR]

The CA Senator Kamala Harris (one of my peeps) is also supposedly thinking about 2020 too.

She seems to have a warm and fuzzy profile like Cory Booker,

=======

I am baffled by DJT's flip flopping on immigration. This is his signature, visceral issue.

Even if folks don't agree with him here on this chat board, getting tough on borders polls extremely well among Republicans.

It doesn't matter what the demographic, geography, education, income etc. slice is.

This has turned into a long tent pole for a fractious party, that everyone can gather under.

(I was personally very surprised by this, but after reading some polling articles, it seems to be true)

Taxes used to be the unifying force for the right.

But it seems to be replaced.

So I can't understand the back tracking he is doing?

Is his wife sabotaging him?

It would not be the first time that has happened to him.

Women indeed seem to be his great weakness since he doesn't partake in the blood of grapes.

[JimHow]

Cheer up, cancer survivor Ruth Ginsburg is only 85.

[JimHow]

It could never happen here:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/o ... ctionfront

[Prof Marvin Hancock]

Unfortunately that is not a ridiculously inplausible chain of events.

Trump poses a serious national security threat to Americans and a very grave one to Europeans.

Trump wants to pull out of the UN, NATO and the WTO. He also wants to destroy the European Union, perhaps the greatest symbol of peace in the post-war era.

Yesterday it emerged he urged Macro to pull France out of the EU.

Trump likes the idea of bilateral deals so he can bully the other side. Take Japan. At the G7 meeting he asked Abe for $100bn for America’s security guarantee. He also wants to crush Japan and its car industry in a bi-lateral trade deal.

If Trump is allowed to carry on and follow through with all his threats it will be catastrophic for the world.

Most of us were born after WW2. In the era of Pax Americana. America built multilateral institutions in its interests and the rest of the world’s. By promoting peace, the rule of law and free trade. This is under threat like never before.

Godwin has suspended his law for good reason. Trump in cahoots with Putin poses the biggest threat to the world since Adolf Hitler.

[JimHow]

I believe this crazy man is capable of ANYTHING, Professor Marvin Hancock.
Our worst nightmares are being realized.
Thank you, Debbie Wasserman, Nancy Pelosi, John Podesta, Huma Abedin, Chelsea Clinton, and all the Super Delegates of the Democratic Party.
What a bunch of absolute lightweights.

[JimHow]

And when he goes after Maine lobster, I hope all those shitheads who voted for him Down East are happy now.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-boil ... 1530315457

[DavidG]

The crabbers who voted for him in MD are screwed due to his immigration policies, but they don’t blame Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ma ... story.html

[tim]

I believe this crazy man is capable of ANYTHING, Professor Marvin Hancock.
Our worst nightmares are being realized.
Thank you, Debbie Wasserman, Nancy Pelosi, John Podesta, Huma Abedin, Chelsea Clinton, and all the Super Delegates of the Democratic Party.
What a bunch of absolute lightweights.

Why do you blame them? Bernie is almost as anti-trade as the POS.

[Racer Chris]

I just ordered "The Plot to Destroy Democracy" by Malcolm Nance.
We heard him on the Stephanie Miller Show yesterday while we were traveling back to CT from upstate NY say that he just re-read it himself and he got frightened all over again. He's sounding the alarm loudly on Russia's successful execution of an old soviet plot to get an easily manipulated right wing wacko elected president.

[JimS]

I just ordered "The Plot to Destroy Democracy" by Malcolm Nance.
We heard him on the Stephanie Miller Show yesterday while we were traveling back to CT from upstate NY say that he just re-read it himself and he got frightened all over again. He's sounding the alarm loudly on Russia's successful execution of an old soviet plot to get an easily manipulated right wing wacko elected president.

I concur...there was a book published in the 1990’s by Alexander Dugin called “The Foundation of Geopolitics:The Geopolitical Future of Russia”. I’m surprised this hasn’t gotten more attention, but it’s literally the playbook of Russia from a geopolitical standpoint, almost spooky in terms of premonition of today’s political climate. From annexation of Crimea, to Trump, to European politics, identity politics, etc etc. If you can track down the English translation, it’s worth the read, but only if you have something positive to counterbalance what your about to read as an offset...

[JimHow]

I was talking to a local beat reporter about a criminal case this afternoon and we started talking about Trump and I told him about the debate we were having here, whether it was fair to invoke Hitler and Trump in the same sentence, etc., and he reminded that one of the targets the fascists go after first is the "fake news" media....

[marcs]

Here's a good piece by FAIR about how the President is a Nazi...

https://fair.org/extra/playing-the-nazi-card/

President Obama that is. It's from early 2010, tracking all the hysterical right-wingers claiming that Obama was for sure the new Hitler.

Between that and the Russiagate nonsense, which is basically the Democratic version of birtherism, I sometimes feel like I now understand what it would have been like to be involved with the Tea Party during the Obama years.

Just about everything Trump is doing is Republican policy developed in Republican thinktanks and pressure groups over a period of years -- and that's bad enough. His biggest difference from traditional Rs is that he likes to drive his opponents insane by constantly rhetorically baiting them and amplifying conflict. That and trade policy.

[DavidG]

I agree that comparing Obama to Hitler was hysterical nonsense. Not so for Trump, for the reasons I've outlined above. I accept the reasonable counterarguments pointing out some differences but feel it is important to call him out for the similarities now, before they progress much further.

That many of Trump's positions and actions have been in the R's playbook for years does not alter my conclusion that there is much greater urgency to act now. To call the Rs Nazis without evidence of the lengths they were willing to go to implement their philosophy would indeed be a cheapening of the memory and meaning of the Holocaust.

But now we're seeing by his actions the depths of depravity that Trump is enthusiastically willing to plumb, and he needs to be called out for it. Hitler, Nazi, Mussolini, autocratic dictator, some or all of the above, whatever serves as the best wake up call. I believe Hitler and Nazi are more recognizably horrific and therefore more effective and appropriate. The Rs that keep making excuses for him may not be lining up to be fitted for SS uniforms but they are responsible for their complicity.

And the cable networks, while pushing back more than they did during the election (i.e. not at all) are still being used to normalize too much of Trump's actions.

[Blanquito]

...the Russiagate nonsense, which is basically the Democratic version of birtherism

In some ways, this is the perfect summary of the difference between the two parties. One conspiracy-fueled party which gets obsessed about a transparently racist lie with zero factual basis about the president’s birth origins (with the now ironic fear that Obama would be an agent of a foreign government or movement), fueled by rank propaganda straight out of Goebbels play book funded by dark money from the Far Right.

The other party which has tangible and systematic proof of a foreign government’s outright backing one of our political candidates — probably with direct encouragement and coordination with that candidate’s campaign AKA collusion — through the use of any means available including probing election offices to see if hacking the vote tallies was possible.

Sure sounds equivalent to me!

Living out and working out west, I’ve driven around large swaths of the rural sections of many of these states over the last decade, and the number of very large, homemade signs (some large enough so they could been seen on the interstate miles away) that said BIRTH CERTIFICATE? across the region was amazing. These were areas that only have electricity because of federal programs to provide power to impoverished, rural areas, and yet these folks were clearly fixed on this outright lie fed by Fox “News” and other fascist rags.

I’ve yet to see anywhere in any form the reverse by liberals- anyone seen a COLLUSION? yard sign of any size, let alone 25 feet tall? Maybe liberals should be beating this drum more loudly.

[DavidG]

Marcus, do you really believe the Russian ties are fake news? Or that they're real but irrelevant because the electorate gets the government it deserves? If we're too dumb to see through the Trump propaganda, regardless of source, we deserve Trump.

I find it hard to fathom how so many intelligent people could be sucked into believing the former, as the connections seem so obvious and are backed up by so much evidence, even if not proven in court.

The latter I understand.

[AKR]

So kind of interesting, in an anecdotal kind of way, is this snippet. I got together on July 3 with some family friends. They're all immigrant, working class Catholics (Pilipinos, Nicaraguans, Germans) and because 4 of them are taking hours on Independence Day (2x - 3x normal pay), we had the holiday BBQ a day early. (We also glugged back a few Grand Corbin Despagnes and Barde Hauts, and by glugged, I mean Olive Garden style pours in incorrect glassware). Universally, they are in favor of Trump's harsh immigration policies. One of the ladies is even a social worker.

They brought up the topic. I think it was to bait me. One guy could tell by my silence. So eventually I conceded that even though DJT had stolen others ideas, I did agree with the general policies.

==========

I think this idea that 'people of color' or immigrants or sanctuary city/state residents universally hate Trump and his works is wrong. They may not be loud, shouting in the NYT, about whatever the outrage du jour is, but at some level they're really mad about this crisis, and want change.

And related to all the above, I'm having a hard time find a firm that can do some roofing work for me. This does spill over....

[DavidG]

Oh I agree that many immigrants who actually have green cards or have attained citizenship are in favor of harsh immigration policies. The ones I’ve known have expressed dismay at changing the rules to make it easier for those who are here illegally after they did the work of jumping through all of the necessary hoops. It’s an understandable perspective (not separating children from parents, though, that’s just evil and cruel). Reminds me of my own desire to slow development right after I bought my home in the outer reaches of the suburbs.

[Racer Chris]

Trying to keep people out, and using disincentives such as separating families is no solution to this country's immigration dilemma.
The immigration service has been seriously underfunded for decades, which has incentivized people to use illegal means to enter the US.

Perhaps adding a new category of "Yellow Card" immigrants, with no eligibility for citizenship would be useful.
Make them pay into the government without means to recover those payments (ie, no social security or medicare/medicaid).
Allow lower pay scales for certain work (like shelling crabs for instance) which we have trouble finding people to do, for those who would still be better off than remaining where they were.

We need more, not less, immigrants to sustain our growth and support an aging citizen population.
A "wall", with numerous "gates", might be a workable solution.