President Trump

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:51 pm

I agree with everything you say Marcus, except that when he zeroes in on a candidate he destroys them.
I mean, like DESTROYS them. Ruins their careers, their lives.
He was a joke a year and a half out before the last election but he methodically picked off one Republican afer another... and these were no lightweights... Bush, Cruz, etc... and then he beat up Hillary, a machine herself. Yeah, yeah, she got 3 million more votes than him from blowouts in places like CA, NY, IL, etc., etc., but I know what my eyes tell me, he won that race, there was a big shift in our politics in 2016, he won PA, WI, MI, OH. He is a political Godzilla. He is a monster. Do not underestimate him. I pray that I am wrong but I fear that I am right.

Sincerely,
Jim How, from the Second Congressional District of Maine

Jay Winton · Post by **Jay Winton** » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:01 pm

What I took from the Mueller testimony was how worried he is about Russian interference in the 2020 election. That is scary.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:12 pm

If Russia is trolling Facebook I'm not scared. The internet is a swamp.
If they are hacking voting machines, then I am scared.
Has there been any real evidence of the latter?

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:36 pm

JimHow wrote:If Russia is trolling Facebook I'm not scared. The internet is a swamp.
If they are hacking voting machines, then I am scared.
Has there been any real evidence of the latter?

Nope. Nor has there been any real proof that the Russian government (as opposed to random Russian click farmers) were the ones who trolled Facebook.

It's a bad idea to run away from the reality of your political system. I lived through 2016 and I know how Trump won. It wasn't about a foreign bogeyman. It was us. This is America, our America to deal with.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:40 pm

Amen.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:03 am

One of my favorite lines in my closing arguments before juries -- and I have now tried more criminal jury trials than any other lawyer in Maine, with an 85% acquittal rate, far greater than any other lawyer in the state -- is that the prosecution is trying to "fit a square peg into a round hole."

That's the sense that I've gotten during this whole sordid affair. The Democrats just needed to let this go. It is backfiring on them. Donald Trump is an awful piece of scum of a human being. But he was lawfully elected by a very angry public in a once in a millenium political system that should not be compromised by hyper-partisan politics. if the Democrats want to stop Donald trump, they need to beat him fair and square at the ballot box. If they can't do it under the system that exists, then too bad. The Democratic Party needs to stop this Mueller nonsense and get to the incredibly complicated task of defeating Orange Head. I personally think this whole Mueller affair has been a disaster for the Democratic Party. Stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. National elections are the very DNA of our system, you can't upend them with partisan prosecutions. I think today was a bad day for the Dems and a good day for Orange Head.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:05 am

By the way, what do people see in this Mueller guy?
He seems like he is way past his prime to me.

Jay Winton · Post by **Jay Winton** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:16 am

Umm..
Do you think the current administration will tell us if there was Russian interference in the 2016 election???

I am very worried about the integrity of the 2020 election.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:20 am

Those of us who live outside of the Beltway, Jay, have a very different perspective.
Stop blaming it on everything else other than the sad state of affairs in the Democratic Party.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:30 am

The Democratic Party is vacant of ideas.
Just compare the opinion pages of the WSJ and NYT.
I "hate" the WSJ opinion page!
They are rabidly right wing (as opposed to their superb newsroom).
But, the WSJ editiorials are alive! Crackling! Vibrant! Controversial, they have you ripping your hair out.
THE NYT on the other hand:
The same old tired frauds, Krugman, Friedman, Kristoff, spouting the same old tired, prdictable ultra-liberal spew day after day after day. Yawn.
The Republican Party is the party of energy. Revolution.
The Democratic Party is the party of AOC and Kamala "Giggles" Harris.
The Republicans are beat-you-over-the-head Trumpsters. Get out of their way!
The Democrats are the effette wine and cheese New Yorkers and DCers and MSNBC crowd, so easily offended by like... EVERYTHING.
The Democratic Party has gone from the party of FDR-Truman-Kennedy to the party of Hillary-Wasserman-Huma.
And we wonder why we are losing?

jal · Post by **jal** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:02 am

Russian interference was never in question, collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians who interfere was and is the issue.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:32 pm

“Consider the story (so far): Russia attacked our democracy, and Trump denied the attack happened—which provided cover for Moscow—while attempting to benefit from it. This is a profound act of betrayal. It is the essence of the scandal: A presidential candidate aiding and abetting an assault on the United States.”

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:36 pm

Yet the Democrats are just supposed to ignore this Trump-abetted assault on our democracy? I don’t really expect consistency in a forum like this, but wouldn’t rolling over on this also illicit howls of distain how wimpy the Democrats are? You know the much-admired WSJ editorial page would be screaming themselves hoarse for impeachment.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:06 pm

marcs wrote:Nope. Nor has there been any real proof that the Russian government (as opposed to random Russian click farmers) were the ones who trolled Facebook.

Unless you get your “news” from Fox or believe Putin more than the entire US intelligence apparatus, these assertions have been discredited. The social media disinformation campaign on Twitter, Facebook, etc. came straight from a GRU cyber warfare group directly part of the Russian security state: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s-russian-

The US intelligence community doesn’t believe the Russians actually changed any votes, but ongoing investigations have found that the computer systems of at least 39 elections offices were breached by the Russian government and they were in the position to change votes had they chosen to do so. Even if the Russians didn’t do it, what’s to stop them from in the future? How is this not a crisis?

One can argue that the Dems should be going after Trump on the merits of his presidency rather than re-litigating the past election, but that doesn’t change the fundamental challenge/threat that Russian and possibly other foreign powers represent to our ridiculously antiquated voting system.

Finally, the 2016 election was a historically close elevation, exceeded only by the 2000 election since at least 1960— Trump (62,984,828 votes) hardly did better than Romney (60,933,504) or McCain (59,948,323) when they were trounced by Obama. Trump didn’t win because he got more people to vote for him, but because turnout was really bad for Clinton (who still won essentially the same % of the minority vote as Obama despite her low approval ratings, but just got a lot fewer to turnout). In such a tight election, lots of things made a difference in Trump winning including the Russian propaganda campaign to suppress turnout (in which they disproportionately targeted African American communities).

For an overview, here’s the middle of the road Time Magazine summary: https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5 ... 3famp=true

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:12 pm

Given the current advantages the Republicans have in the EC, I think 2020 is pretty much a toss up. Based on the 2018 mid terms though, I think the Dems take PA and MI making WI and AZ ground-zero.

This assumes the economy doesn’t seriously slow or tank by then — an increasingly likely possibility (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... eyday/amp/) — which would make the Dems the prohibitive favorite.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:51 pm

Pelosi will know when to pull the trigger on impeachment. As of yesterday she still couldn't get to 218 yes votes within the democratic caucus. I see no problem with the dems taking as long as they need to move the needle in that direction as long as it happens before the conventions.
Trump is being besieged by multiple court cases right now, and most judges are siding with the dems in these cases, because they're taking the time to dot their i's and cross their t's. He may think he's winning the public opinion battle but he is losing the war because the law is not on his side.
I don't want the democratic party to fight dirty in the way trump does. I want him nailed to the wall legally.
Some of Mueller's comments yesterday make it clear that there is still much going on in the FBI that's below the radar. Among other things, his office made 14 criminal referrals which have not been made public yet.

JCNorthway · Post by **JCNorthway** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:27 pm

The big problem with moving to impeach is that there is no way to get 67 votes for conviction in the current Senate. That would require 20 Republicans to vote to convict, and I just don't see that happening unless there is a new smoking gun that comes out. If the House votes to impeach and the Senate does not convict, Trump will use that (I was found innocent) to great advantage in the 2020 campaign.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:19 pm

Blanquito wrote:
marcs wrote:Nope. Nor has there been any real proof that the Russian government (as opposed to random Russian click farmers) were the ones who trolled Facebook.
Unless you get your “news” from Fox or believe Putin more than the entire US intelligence apparatus, these assertions have been discredited. The social media disinformation campaign on Twitter, Facebook, etc. came straight from a GRU cyber warfare group directly part of the Russian security state: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s-russian-

The US intelligence community doesn’t believe the Russians actually changed any votes, but ongoing investigations have found that the computer systems of at least 39 elections offices were breached by the Russian government and they were in the position to change votes had they chosen to do so. Even if the Russians didn’t do it, what’s to stop them from in the future? How is this not a crisis?

One can argue that the Dems should be going after Trump on the merits of his presidency rather than re-litigating the past election, but that doesn’t change the fundamental challenge/threat that Russian and possibly other foreign powers represent to our ridiculously antiquated voting system.

Finally, the 2016 election was a historically close elevation, exceeded only by the 2000 election since at least 1960— Trump (62,984,828 votes) hardly did better than Romney (60,933,504) or McCain (59,948,323) when they were trounced by Obama. Trump didn’t win because he got more people to vote for him, but because turnout was really bad for Clinton (who still won essentially the same % of the minority vote as Obama despite her low approval ratings, but just got a lot fewer to turnout). In such a tight election, lots of things made a difference in Trump winning including the Russian propaganda campaign to suppress turnout (in which they disproportionately targeted African American communities).

For an overview, here’s the middle of the road Time Magazine summary: https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5 ... 3famp=true

I categorically disagree with all of this, but there are problems with getting too deep into political disagreements on a wine board. For one thing, I would endanger my future Chateau Magdelaine access.

I would note that the claims that "election systems were breached by the Russians" and the like were a fallback position after Russiagate theorists found that the public was (correctly IMO) reacting to the news of $100,000 worth of Facebook advertisements from Russia-based IP addresses and the claim that Russian hackers were behind the release of John Podesta's emails as something less than Pearl Harbor level news. State governments disputed these claims, and I have never seen any evidence that Russians were "in a position to change vote totals". I believe that almost all large-scale data systems are constantly being probed and tested by hackers of one sort or other, that the source of these hacking attempts are very difficult to determine, that the nature of a "breach" is very vague (e.g. downloading voter rolls could be described as a "breach" but voter roll data is semi-public anyway), and therefore one could claim that almost any system had been "breached" at some point.

Anyway, let's leave it at that since we clearly disagree.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:08 pm

Registered Voters Who Stayed Home Probably Cost Clinton The Election:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirty ... ction/amp/

On could argue Trump’s genius for destruction will again depress turnout once his Dem opponent is chosen, but if he doesn’t, he probably loses.

But 2018 showed the dynamic was quite different after 2 years of Trump, with historically high turnout (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.co ... ns-turnout) and the largest House popular vote win (+8.6 by the Dems) on record for the party in the minority (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html).

Rather than depress turnout, Trump supercharged it:
“Democrats didn't just win because Republicans turnout was low. This year had the highest turnout for any midterm election at 50.1% in the last 100 years. Turnout was about 35 million more people than it was four years ago, when Republicans expanded their House majority... The 2018 large turnout allowed House Democrats to win about 10 million more votes than House Republicans. That's the largest raw vote margin in a House midterm election ever.”

I think who the Dem candidate is will matter a lot, and unlike in the midterm, things will be different when Trump has a single enemy to focus on, that’s why I think it will be close. But I seriously doubt people sit this one out, no matter how much Putin posts on social media. And while it’s hard to give much weight to polls right now, but I’d rather be Biden than not with his 8-10 pt lead in head to head polls with Trump. I mean, Biden has an 8 pt lead in Ohio right now per Quinnipiac! Trump can’t lose Ohio.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/po ... t-general/

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:35 pm

Hey Marcus, no harm, no foul! I like a good internet debate and we can agree to disagree on this.

I used to think politics and wine boards shouldn’t mix, but I changed my mind a while ago when I realized it was only on wine boards that I regularly exchanged opinions on politics with conservatives (not meaning you in particular, Marcus). Given the venue we tend to be reasonably civil with each other and the friendships we’ve all developed make me genuinely interested in what everyone has to say.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:38 pm

Blanquito wrote:“Consider the story (so far): Russia attacked our democracy, and Trump denied the attack happened—which provided cover for Moscow—while attempting to benefit from it. This is a profound act of betrayal. It is the essence of the scandal: A presidential candidate aiding and abetting an assault on the United States.”

Yes when the history books are written the current insouciance will be seen as astonishing. America’s Cold War adversary for 65 out of the last 75 years and Americans are just supposed to shrug their shoulders and move on. What extraordinary times we live in.

Meanwhile there has been a far right coup in the United Kingdom, but that is another story and a mere distraction given that America is supposed to be the leader of the free world.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FinancialTim ... 1015763968

johnz · Post by **johnz** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:35 pm

Russiagate is an evidence free conspiracy theory concocted by Robby Mook and John Podesta 24 hours after the 2016 defeat of Hillary Clinton by an incompetent game show host in order to deflect blame and distract from the real reasons Clinton lost. The theory serves a lot of interested parties other than Democratic leadership, including the corporate owned mainstream media and the intelligence/military complex. This theory that Red-Baits Trump also serves as an alternative to presenting real opposition to Trump’s policies, which Washington Democrats do not have. Democrats fast-track Trump’s judges, they help deregulate Wall Street, they vote for Trump’s border bill (which they say is racist), they increase the Military budget, they roll over on everything – Venezuala, Iran, Syria.

I hate Trump as much as anybody, but I’m not going to let him steal my critical thinking skills or rob me of what little courage it takes to not join the Heard Mentality of Russiagate.

--Gary Rust

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:47 pm

Clearly Clinton lost because she is a witch. Have any of you seen her floating? The GRU's concerted efforts had zero effect.

It’s important to consider all of the factors. My perspective on this is similar to Blanquito's. We need a candidate who can do more than just tread water (continuing the witch theme) and we need to focus on the future. In addition, we can’t ignore the threat of fake news (another example of Trump accusing opponents of the very thing he is most guilty of), whether from Trump, Russia, right, left, or center.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 pm

I think we can all agree, whatever style of wine we like, that Hillary ran a really bad campaign and was an inherently flawed candidate if only for her historically high negatives.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:23 am

Apropos of recent posts:
The Senate Intelligence Committee concluded Thursday that election systems in all 50 states were targeted by Russia in 2016, an effort more far-reaching than previously acknowledged and one largely undetected by the states and federal officials at the time. 7/25/19
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us/p ... e=Homepage

A future report by the committee will detail things like the “200 or so contacts between Russia and members of the Trump campaign.”

But you know, there’s no evidence there that anything really happened. And while we’re at it, who really believes the moon landings the BD was waxing poetically about really happened? I mean, really happened on the moon, not a movie set in Area 55.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:01 am

Blanquito wrote:I think we can all agree, whatever style of wine we like, that Hillary ran a really bad campaign and was an inherently flawed candidate if only for her historically high negatives.

I can't agree with that.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:50 am

Here’s a different perspective from a guy who spent time in the trenches fighting David Duke:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1152 ... 87141.html

He says the way to beat Trump is to call him out as the racist he is and make it clear that he is an existential threat to our way of life. It won’t convince any of the the Trump faithful to change their votes, but it will energize the apathetic and disenchanted to drive turnout against him.

He says that trying to tag Trump with Russian interference or other crimes and ineptitudes is a losing strategy. As is coming up with a better/wonkier plan for health care, education, taxes, etc. All that just normalizes Trump and gives the apathetic an excuse not to engage in "just another election."

It’s an interesting take and while I believe Trump is a racist, the David Duke analogy may not be all that accurate. Trump backpedals, lies, and has his toadies explain away his racist rhetoric. Duke didn’t do that. Then again, there are plenty of videos and Tweets that could be used to try to keep Trump from squirming away.

Whatever message is chosen, it’s only as good as the propaganda machine behind it. I fear Trump and the Rs have the upper hand there.

Chateau Vin · Post by **Chateau Vin** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:55 am

Just Relax...We are strong enough to withstand one more year of democracy drubbing...The duck will lose 2020 by around the same margin he had won...

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:48 pm

If that happens, CV, he won’t vacate the office due to “voter fraud.”

Chateau Vin · Post by **Chateau Vin** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:59 pm

JimHow wrote:If that happens, CV, he won’t vacate the office due to “voter fraud.”

Then I can't wait to see US Marshals drag the crying baby out of the white house...That would be a sight to behold....

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:08 pm

johnz wrote:Russiagate is an evidence free conspiracy theory concocted by Robby Mook and John Podesta 24 hours after the 2016 defeat of Hillary Clinton by an incompetent game show host in order to deflect blame and distract from the real reasons Clinton lost. The theory serves a lot of interested parties other than Democratic leadership, including the corporate owned mainstream media and the intelligence/military complex. This theory that Red-Baits Trump also serves as an alternative to presenting real opposition to Trump’s policies, which Washington Democrats do not have. Democrats fast-track Trump’s judges, they help deregulate Wall Street, they vote for Trump’s border bill (which they say is racist), they increase the Military budget, they roll over on everything – Venezuala, Iran, Syria.

I hate Trump as much as anybody, but I’m not going to let him steal my critical thinking skills or rob me of what little courage it takes to not join the Heard Mentality of Russiagate.

--Gary Rust

LOL usually I'm manning the Russiagate skeptic trenches by myself, thanks Gary! Can't remember if we met but when you are next in DC I will crack one of my few first growths for you.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:29 pm

Blanquito wrote:Apropos of recent posts:
The Senate Intelligence Committee concluded Thursday that election systems in all 50 states were targeted by Russia in 2016, an effort more far-reaching than previously acknowledged and one largely undetected by the states and federal officials at the time. 7/25/19
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us/p ... e=Homepage

A future report by the committee will detail things like the “200 or so contacts between Russia and members of the Trump campaign.”

But you know, there’s no evidence there that anything really happened. And while we’re at it, who really believes the moon landings the BD was waxing poetically about really happened? I mean, really happened on the moon, not a movie set in Area 55.

I haven't had time to check out this recent Senate Intelligence Committee report (nor do I have time to be an unpaid debunker of the endless flood of claims), but I would just note that we now have a multi-year record of Russiagate claims being made with a big splash and then turning out to be BS. I am fine with election security measures like going to paper ballots and the like, they seem like a good idea regardless. But I'm concerned that claims about foreign manipulation of elections are going to be an endless resource for any losing side to delegitimize an election, and also for the passage of laws censoring the media during an election campaign.

I do want to say something about the "200 or so contacts between Russia and members of the Trump campaign". These kinds of statements about contacts between "Russia" and members of political campaigns have been a staple of Russiagate from the beginning, and they are really xenophobic propaganda. It astounds me that people are naive enough to ascribe evidentiary value to such context-free claims. Washington DC, like all imperial capitals ever, is full of foreigners. Since the business of Washington is government these foreigners have contacts with all kinds of politicians and government officials. It is commonplace for foreigners to have contacts with political campaigns. How many Saudi Arabians had contacts with members of the Trump and Clinton campaigns? Israelis? Chinese? Turks? Ukrainians? British people? Canadians? You cannot put contacts with Russians in context without having any basic data for comparison. Are all contacts with foreigners supposed to be sinister? Of course in the case of Russians the twist is to claim, evidence-free, that any contact with a Russian individual is a contact with "Russia" the sinister enemy government (Russiagate is incredibly dependent on this move, so every post from a Russian IP address on the internet is a KGB plot and every Russian citizen is a spy for Putin, etc.)

Not only are contacts with foreign individuals routine for campaigns, but for better or worse assistance from foreigners is as well. The Steele dossier at the center of Russiagate was created by anti-Trump campaigns hiring Steele (a former British intelligence operative, speaking of foreign governments) to go to Russia and ask Russian people for opposition research on Trump. The 1992 Bush campaign sent people to Russia to dig up dirt on Clinton's student trip there. The 1996 Clinton campaign received extensive assistance from China (the 1996 election was almost certainly a much larger-scale foreign government effort to manipulate a U.S. presidential election than anything that happened in 2016, but nobody cares about it because the "right" person won). Examples could be multiplied.

Winona Chief · Post by **Winona Chief** » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:14 pm

Other than to say that I think the Democrats focusing on Russia is a bad idea, I will try to stay out of this discussion. However, I do plan to share a few bottles of wine with Gary Rust tonight and a bunch more tomorrow night.

Chris Bublitz

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:16 am

Blanquito wrote:Hey Marcus, no harm, no foul! I like a good internet debate and we can agree to disagree on this.

I used to think politics and wine boards shouldn’t mix, but I changed my mind a while ago when I realized it was only on wine boards that I regularly exchanged opinions on politics with conservatives (not meaning you in particular, Marcus). Given the venue we tend to be reasonably civil with each other and the friendships we’ve all developed make me genuinely interested in what everyone has to say.

You don't have any friends in real life that have differing political views? That's a real echo chamber / bubble.

Importantly: I don't think Trump is particularly conservative or anything. He just steals buzzwords when they catch his fancy. Basically he plagiarized the Federalist Society's judicial suggestions, and uses that to pretend he's of the conservative tribe. But he's just a fraudster who mouths the words in the hymnal at church, who doesn't feel the song in his heart.

Remember: this was someone who had HRC at a family wedding, was a registered Democrat previously, and demanded radical gun control in his own books. Political promises are just flags of convenience to him, to be used for his own selfish & narcissistic agenda.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:48 pm

I predict Orange Head's poll numbers will rise and the Democrats' will decline post-Mueller:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/26/opin ... e=Homepage

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:53 pm

I agree Jim. It’s all about style, not substance.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:20 pm

I keep asking the same question and I can never seem to get an adequate answer. I keep waiting for Godot, for the Alexander Butterfield moment, but it never comes. Maybe the answer will be obvious now after the Mueller testimony:

What is the single most convincing piece of evidence of illegality by Donald Trump involving the Russians in the 2016 presidential election?

This was substance in 1973, and by a Republican no less:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeQXopJ5U-Q

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:39 pm

It’s not the crime, it’s the coverup. If they can get McGahn to play ball, they’re got an open and shut case of obstruction of justice on par with Watergate — ie Trump ordered Mueller fired, and when his people refused and word of the order got out, he gave orders to create falsified documents that the order was never given. Plus all the witness tampering.

One thing much clearer to me after the testimony: Mueller made it very obvious he would have indicted Trump for at least obstruction were it not for DOJ guidelines on indicting a sitting president.

The main thing that has changed since Watergate IMHO is partisanship. 40-45% of the country is predestined to not care/not believe that Trump broke the law, acted like a tinpot dictator, betrayed our country, no matter how damming the evidence. That wasn't true in 1973.

Chateau Vin · Post by **Chateau Vin** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:30 pm

JimHow wrote:I keep asking the same question and I can never seem to get an adequate answer. I keep waiting for Godot, for the Alexander Butterfield moment, but it never comes. Maybe the answer will be obvious now after the Mueller testimony:

What is the single most convincing piece of evidence of illegality by Donald Trump involving the Russians in the 2016 presidential election?

This was substance in 1973, and by a Republican no less:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeQXopJ5U-Q

There is much more substance in Don’s case than Dick’s case. This, according to John Dean himself...

As blanquito touched upon, it’s the partisanship that’s causing this consternation....

- Not to mention the echo chambers that people are living in and not see any objectivity and truth, unlike 70s
- Fueling the above are social media and opinionated tv media, which were absent back then. Everybody is beholden to the tribe which was not the case back then (at least more republicans called a spade a spade, and vice versa back then and was enough to keep the democratic principles of the country afloat)...
- Current extreme partisan gerrymandering incentivizes the political class to not care anything other than their self interest, even at the expense of rule of law or democratic principles...it was not this bad back then...
- look at Lindsay graham... No matter his political leanings, he was a principled man in many respects. Not anymore... He sold his soul... Someone who can sell his/her soul, can easily sell the country too.. If that is the turn of events about respected people, imagine about someone macabre like McConnell or that senator from the great state of Maine...

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:41 pm

CV I didn’t hear anything about a specific illegality in your message.
Patrick’s answer seems to be that the Alexander Butterfield moment is that Orange Head wanted Mueller fired. That’s apparently “the worst” thing that DJT did.
I’m sorry, I’m not (through a hyperpartisan impeachment process) gonna start upending the results of national elections over that.