perusing dockets

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AKR
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perusing dockets

Post by AKR »

CGC-15-545750 SF Superior, June 16, Declaration, Ex. D

One can read that for free without any special data memberships

http://www.sfsuperiorcourt.org/online-services
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Claret
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by Claret »

Very troubled waters ahead. The complaints cite large dollar amount for undelivered goods. One is nearly a mil.

No way I would bite on any prearrival offers.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by JimHow »

Interesting. I hadn't heard anything about these suits. Sounds like the PC drama continues.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by DavidG »

Thanks, Arv. This is news I can use.

The PC debate has raged on and off for years. They made it through the recession and even bought a new building. I was a happy (and patient!) customer for a long time, always (eventually) getting everything I ordered. I was a pretty staunch supporter but gave up on them 2 years ago not so much out of fear they would go under but because I got tired of waiting. I just recently started buying from them again, but only a bit, limiting my exposure to pre-arrivals.

This is the first I've seen any concrete evidence that they may be in serious trouble. From what I've read of the complaints, some seem more defensible than others, but you never know. There's also a state tax lien, for non-payment of sales tax from what I've heard, but I don't know for how much.

I've only got 2 pre-arrival bottles on order with PC, but they're 2001 Yquem. Not a major investment, but not trivial either. I may call them later today to convert to in-stock items.
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by DavidG »

I'm not into them enough to make a small claims court appearance worthwhile. Even if I didn't have to fly out to California, taking a half day off of work just for the hearing would cost me more than the two bottles of wine are worth.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by JimHow »

I don't do civil litigation but I think you could sue them in Maryland.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by DavidG »

Could be, but even a half-day off work would cost more than I'd recover. And I haven't even explored the option of trading for in-stock wine or just taking the 15% "restocking" haircut.
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by JimHow »

I predict Premier Cru, aka "Fox Ortega Enterprises, Inc.," will be out of business in less than a year.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by Blanquito »

JimHow wrote:I predict Premier Cru, aka "Fox Ortega Enterprises, Inc.," will be out of business in less than a year.
I wouldn't be surprised if it goes under before the end of the year. Things have taken a fevered pitch on Wine Berserkers in the last week or so, which some are calling aptly a "run on the store".
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by JonB »

I had my in-stock wine shipped (only 3 bottles, but at least that creates room in their warehouse to store more of those incoming container shipments).

Their business model is opaque to most outsiders, so I have no predictions on the date of their demise, but learned through the Sam's debacle a few years ago that AMEX was my friend.
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

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There are likely some threads in the archive here, but it was simply requesting a merchant dispute form, filling it out and checking the box that the merchandise paid for was not received, providing backup (credit card charges and receipts), providing a statement that the merchant failed to deliver.....and AMEX provided a full refund. Visa did not (I worked my way through a a series of supervisors, they eventually told me anything over 12 months from charge date they wouldn't cover. It was only about 5% of my charges at Sam's so I didn't press too hard.

As I recall, an ebob member (possibly John Kight?) had worked in the credit card industry and was the Subject Matter Expert.

I waited for Sam's to file (a ch11 that was converted to ch7) before I was certain they were not intending to deliver.

This has been 7 years ago, so perhaps terms/policies have changed since then.

EDIT - I looked up my records in the Sam's non-delivery issue, which was for Bordeaux futures. Sam's provided an expected delivery date (e.g. about 18 months from the purchases), and I documented emails and calls when they didn't deliver, and kept shifting the dates, until Sam's closed their doors (and some of their assets were purchased by Binny's). Binny's said they would not honor any of Sam's obligations. I then filed the claims. An important part of them processing the refund was that - even though it was about 2 years after the charge on my credit card - I filed the claims in a timely manner based on the merchant's non-delivery.
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by RDD »

Been a problem off/on for years. Was it Shamrock in Michigan years ago? Then the guy in Colorado (Ron Wallace?).
Also it is not only futures. There have been a number of bonded wine fiasco's in London. As well as off site storage frauds here in the USA
But if there is really a "run" on PC then it could easily run out of capital.
Who looses? Not PC . They'll hide behind bankruptcy.

AMEX is a really good way to go with pre-arrivals.

Do you know where your wine is?
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Re: perusing dockets

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I have a legal question. If a vendor has sold you wine and has paid its distributor for the wine, does the wine belong to you once the vendor possess the wine or is it subject to claims against that vendor from others? Vendors say that when you buy wine that the title passes to you before they deliver it. That might be correct, but it does not answer my question.
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by stefan »

There is the old saying, Arv, that "possession is 9/10 of the law". But if you store your wine off site at a facility and the facility goes under you get your wine. Of course, in this case there is no question as to what you own.
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Re: perusing dockets

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Re: perusing dockets

Post by JonB »

stefan wrote:I have a legal question. If a vendor has sold you wine and has paid its distributor for the wine, does the wine belong to you once the vendor possess the wine or is it subject to claims against that vendor from others? Vendors say that when you buy wine that the title passes to you before they deliver it. That might be correct, but it does not answer my question.
Vendors often say title passes to you when it has been handed off to a carrier/transportation company for delivery to you. While they may say this, there are many exceptions in commerce law that will hold them responsible.....as an example, if they used faulty packaging, or there was an inherent defect in the product, handing off to a carrier doesn't absolve them of liability. Vendors generally warn buyers that once the shipment has been tendered to the carrier, they don't want to be held liable for damage (in shipping, weather damage, etc). If there is a claim resulting from the transportation, presumably you would have to go after the carrier directly. On the few shipment claims I've made, the vendor has a contract with the carrier, and pays the carrier (and may pay for insurance), so you have to work through the vendor.

I'm not familiar with wine retail vendors making the statement that once the product is in their possession, it belongs to you and is at your risk. Typically they try to pass title upon delivery to a carrier or a shipping intermediary.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by stefan »

Thanks, JonB, but I was interested in whether creditors have a claim on merchandise that a vendor has sold but not yet delivered. What interests me is wine that I bought from PC but is in their possession.

Suppose you pay for a new car and the dealer files for bankruptcy before you take possession. Of course you have some claim to the car, but do other creditors?
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by stefan »

The temperatures at still in the 90s here, Arv, and shipping here takes an extra day. Cargo overnights in Houston or Dallas, then is shipped trucked to me with a delivery in the late afternoon.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by Blanquito »

I have 5 cases on the way from PC which is everything they owe me, daily high temps en route are high 60's to low 70s'. I usually prefer to ship when temps never get above 70, but I wasn't willing to wait and the forecast shows temps jumping back into the 90's next week.

I converted all of my prearrivals to in-stock inventory on Monday, got a store credit processed on Tuesday, and cajoled them into shipping on Wednesday with a Saturday delivery. They told me they are currently super slammed with requests to convert prearrivals to store credit and shipping requests with the advent of cool weather. The in stock inventory has plummeted in recent weeks, I was forced to look farther afield to find wine I wanted. Going forward, not sure how much attractive wine will be left in-stock for using store credit. The panic is on, but maybe the worst is over for the moment?

But no one at PC gave me any hassle about getting credit for in-stock wine and I was able to get folks on the phone each time I called.

I don't know if Premier Cru will weather this storm, but the heat is on, and at the very least I doubt I would ever get my prearrivals at the prices I paid, so I was willing to cash in my chips. Unless there is a sea change at PC (new owner/financing, disclosure of methods, firm commitment to changing methods, etc), I am done with PC for good. Kinda of strange actually, I've been waiting on various prearrival orders from PC since at least 2006, I am now free!

In-stock prices were good, not outstanding, and I am pleased with my haul, some interesting stuff to try in the end:

Chartogne-Taillet Brut Cuvee Ste Anne $39
2003 Rioja Reserva Vina Tondonia, Lopez de Heredia $37
2011 Barolo, G.B. Burlotto $45
2010 Mount Eden Estate Cabernet $60
2012 Gruner Veltliner Frauenweingarten Federspiel, Alzinger $27
2009 Monbousquet Blanc $55
2012 Mt Eden Chardonnay Wolff Vineyard $20
2012 Au Bon Climat Chardonnay Los Alamos $23
2013 Gruner Veltliner Hefeabzug, Nikolaihof $25
2010 Mt Eden Chardonnay Estate $60
1996 Coteaux du Layon, Moulin Touchais $42
2009 de Fieuzal Blanc $46
2013 Failla Chardonnay Sonoma Coast $35
2011 Barolo Cannubi, G.B. Burlotto $65
2013 Au Bon Climat Chardonnay Santa Barbara County $19
2012 Cote Rotie Montmains, Cedric Parpette, 375 ml $28
2006 Barolo Riserva Bricco Boschis Vigna San Giuseppe, Cavallotto $85
2002 Pol Roger Brut $75
Vilmart Grande Reserve Brut $45
2011 Barolo Acclivi, G.B. Burlotto $53
2013 Macon-Uchizy Les Maranches, Héritiers du Comte Lafon $30
2013 Gruner Veltliner Muhlpoint Federspiel, Alzinger $28
2012 Cornas Granit 30, Vincent Paris $35
2009 Malartic Lagraviere Blanc, 375 ml $38
2013 Ridge Zinfandel Geyserville $35
2007 Rioja Imperial Gran Reserva, CVNE $50
2011 Crognolo, Sette Ponti $22
Laherte Blanc de Blancs Brut Nature $39
2006 Lenoble Grand Cru Blanc de Blancs $60
2009 La Fleur de Gay, 375 ml $55
2011 Canon, 375 ml $28
2009 Cantemerle $25
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

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PC is still saying that they have a container arriving in October and another before the end of the year. If the store is actually in good enough shape to stay open through the end of the year it will show a gain from having PAs converted to store credit that is used to buy stock that is sitting there. If the cancelled PAs really do arrive before the end of the year, that wine can be sold at much higher prices and shipped immediately. I am getting now the few items of mine that are ready for shipping, but there is almost nothing in stock that I want. I'll wait a month to see if the promised shipment arrives before trying for a refund (or store credit in the unlikely event that they have items I want). There is no point in my taking store credit now when I don't want what is available.

If I take a big loss I'll just delay retiring a bit longer.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by Blanquito »

I gave up a lot of 2004 Pol Roger vintage champagne for my trade ins (Rose, Brut and BdB). :(
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by stefan »

Quote without comment; the title of the latest PC email offering:


"A Tantalizing Selection of Madeiras Arriving this November - Lowest Prices in the Country!"
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by marcs »

I just asked for a cash refund; I was into them for a little over $6K, which is really more than I could afford. I had stopped buying wine except for the old pre-arrivals I had with them. I delayed trading in for store credit because I was going back and forth about what to do and now they just don't have enough to make it worth it, I'd much rather have the cash. Of course I don't have the cash yet, but they seemed straightforward and cool about processing a refund.

It's a damn shame because I invested in 2010 pre-arrivals with them, which was a good vintage to buy futures in. Would really much rather have had the wines but with all these internet people egging on a run on the store I didn't feel comfortable being exposed. Oh well :-(.
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

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Yes, marcs, I'd be curious to hear when you actually get your $6,000 back.
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by Chateau Vin »

AKR wrote:JimHow - when you were young, how did lawyers review court files?

When I started in the securities/investment business, one of the literal advantages of certain firms was that you could go down into their library and pull reports/filings etc. I still remember chasing down all kinds of stuff when I was just starting. They had librarians to track down harder stuff. So to me it's absolutely amazing how much stuff is available online, albeit within walled gardens for some things (like court systems that want to get paid for the public's information).

So all this stuff that's online is amazing to me.

Aaahhhh!!! The internet !!!! One of the top three inventions, that changed the course of civilization IMO....
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Re: perusing dockets

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Ha man I remember when I was just out of law school back in 1985, working for an insurance company in Cambridge, we had these big boxes on our desks. We didn't research on line, everything was "shapardized" in physical volumes. You had to literally go hunt down these old crusty volumes in dusty corners of the law library. I'm so old I remember working in a bookstore in Lewiston back in 1981, when someone would give us a credit card we had to physically look up in the booklet they sent us each week to see if their credit card number was on the invalid list. We'd have to scroll down till we found where their number was supposed to be. It was crazy. Stephen King used to come into the store and I remember when he handed me his credit card, right around the time Cujo came out. the other night on Netflix I watched the 1995 "lost interview" with Steve Jobs. If you haven't seen it yet I highly recommend it, it is pretty amazing. Indeed, the internet is pretty amazing. I have studied a lot about the Apollo program and I'm always amazed at how primitive those computers were, literally less powerful than the average calculator today. When the Eagle was landing the computers kept getting overloaded and they almost had to abort the mission. To me the iPhone is about the most amazing thing I have ever seen. I'm in awe of my little iPhone 5
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Re: perusing dockets

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d
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by marcs »

I will certainly let people know if I get the $6K, both here and at Wineberserkers. Beyond getting my money back, which I very much want, I will be glad to say something positive about the store on the net. They obviously have real business model problems but the internet feeding frenzy right now to force a run on the store is kind of distasteful, and if it succeeds it will end up hurting customers more than the owners of the store.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by stefan »

>>
the internet feeding frenzy right now to force a run on the store is kind of distasteful, and if it succeeds it will end up hurting customers more than the owners of the store.
>>

Probably right, given our bankruptcy laws. But PC will fare much better if it withstands the storm because the returned PAs can be sold very quickly at higher prices when they come in.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by Blanquito »

marcs wrote:I will certainly let people know if I get the $6K, both here and at Wineberserkers. Beyond getting my money back, which I very much want, I will be glad to say something positive about the store on the net. They obviously have real business model problems but the internet feeding frenzy right now to force a run on the store is kind of distasteful, and if it succeeds it will end up hurting customers more than the owners of the store.
Mostly for these reasons, I've found myself defending PC online a lot over the past few years. I've mainly tried to address the pitchfork-and-torches crowd who have been quite obviously rooting for PC to go under for at least a decade, and they will use virtually any argument to advance this "cause". (The irony is they always claim they're looking out for the consumer, but the folks who'll get screwed are the many holding the prearrivals bag).

Unfortunately, this has meant that reasonable discussions about the risks and sketchy goings-on at PC have had a hard time getting a fair hearing as they've been swept up with the hater crowd.

I do find it funny that those PC haters are now getting credit for foresight and intelligence when: (1) PC is still going, delivering wine, sending refund checks which aren't bouncing, despite the well documented legal and lien concerns, (2) these folks have been predicting imminent doom for at least a decade, a timeframe over which any legitimate business could go under. It's like giving credit to the cult leader who predicts the end of the world correctly (which we do know will eventually happen) after several millennia of crackpots saying the apocalypse is coming any day now. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

I received my 5 cases of wine today, everything looks great. So despite my still dogged support for PC getting a fair shake, I am glad to be cashed out. Hope the rest of you are made whole soon.
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Re: perusing dockets

Post by JimHow »

I have a philosophy of never wishing bad on anyone, including PC. But it appears that they have repeatedly lied to people, and have engaged in fraud. If most of us did stuff like that in our professions -- lawyers, doctors, plumbers, carpenters -- we'd be out of business.
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