Is Mark Squires being forthcoming?

[jal]

Another post that will soon be deleted; read it quickly.

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard//sh ... p?t=203132

[jal]

Another post that will soon be deleted; read it quickly.

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard//sh ... p?t=203132

Ooops! too late, it's gone now.

[jal]

I wonder if the administrators at that board will be able to sleep tonight

[William P]

No offense, but that's why I post here. There's just too much drama on that board. There are many gifted tasters there and some great posts but it so hostile at times. It seems that some posters only want to stir the pot. Wine is pleasure. It is to be enjoyed and shared. If you want to debate points or the existence of terrior, well feel free to do so, but I'll take a nap.

Bill

[JimHow]

They reap what they sow....

[JimHow]

It's really quite entertaining.

Threads like this keep popping up and keep getting deleted....

Good work, Squires....

So what happened to Wilfred's sticky post? Guess it wasn't that sticky.
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05-28-2009, 10:22 PM #2
Alan Weinberg
Pass the Burgundy, please.




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same place this one is headed, I bet!
alan

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05-28-2009, 10:23 PM #3
Lance Smith
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Yeah, its like Casper the Friendly Ghost in here tonight.

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05-28-2009, 10:25 PM #4
Greg Malcolm
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Whack-A-Mole
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05-28-2009, 10:25 PM #5
Lance Smith
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That was such a good game at Chuck-E-Cheese when I was a kid!

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05-28-2009, 10:27 PM #6
Chris Buddress
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There were some very well stated points and questions in that post. Too bad it couldn't have remained for more to see and for RMP to respond to. Who knows? Maybe we'll still hear a response.
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05-28-2009, 10:29 PM #7
Brian London
The moon came up in wine...




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teflon coated board
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05-28-2009, 10:31 PM #8
Lance Smith
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I just drank an '06 Morgan Rosella's Pinot while making bran muffins in a teflon coated muffin pan - what a coincidence.

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05-28-2009, 10:33 PM #9
sean reed
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deleting threads is really helping to keep the uproar going.

Not sure who does the PR for Parker and eBob but they should be taking out and shot!
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05-28-2009, 10:33 PM #10
Scott Davis
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crisis management = delete key
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05-28-2009, 10:34 PM #11
sean reed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Davis
crisis management = delete key



See my Signature!
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05-28-2009, 10:35 PM #12
Lance Smith
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You know how to win on the internet? Just keep it going........and like all valley entrepreneurs, never give up.

So seriously, Whack-A-Mole - do they still make that game?

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05-28-2009, 10:35 PM #13
j.durnell
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Sheesh a guy takes a few hours to have a glass of wine and dinner and look what he misses.

Um, what did I miss? Wilfred's thoughts on junket-gate I'm guessing.
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05-28-2009, 10:35 PM #14
Robert Driscoll
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It's really strange. I couldn't really care less about this, until all these posts started disappearing.

Now, I admit to being extremely dismayed and disappointed.
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[AlexR]

Well, some strong opinions being expressed here!

The notrious censorship on the Mark Squires board unfortunately reflects very poorly on Robert Parker, and that is a shame, because from what I know of the man he deserves much better.
The guys hanging on his coat tails clearly can't hold a handle to him...

The ethical issues have been discussed, but perhaps the more important issue is: will the wine world ever again be as beholden to any one person, any one publication?

I think we can all agree that:
- Parker is a good taster and passionate about wine
- What others do with his scores is their business, and Parker cannot be blamed
- However, a cult following has unfortunately grown, with all sorts of perverse effects (such as the Squires board, comparable to the Church of Scientology...)

Obviously, there is a huge market for ratings and there's no way in the world that we will wean people away from quick fixes (two digit, superhighway understanding of fine wine).

My only hope is that there will be more players in the future, a more democratic and widespread way of evaluating wine.

Already, think how much we have learned from this and other forums (I'm thinking of CellarTracker as well).

I hope that the sharing of notes from the bottom of the pyramid up will increase in the future, and that the Internet environment will allow for the dissemination of wine knowledge by many more people in the future

Best regards,
Alex R.
(waxing philosophical at 8 a.m.)

[Comte Flaneur]

It is as comical as it is sad; as pathetic as it is paranoid

It is a Stalinist regime over there

Fortunately, unlike Kim Jong Il, Squires doesn't have nukes

But maybe if the EBob board folds he can apply for a job in North Korea?

[ChrisW]

Dear Alex,

I guess a bit of "waxing philosophical at 8 a.m." and a bit of "wishfull thinking"

They handled this situation unbelievably stupid at the WA and Squires is as unfairly dominant as he has always been, but I don't see any reason why this will not blow over very soon. That is, if there is something to really blow over since nothing really happened. The ethical infringements were very minor (all well-known publications in e.g. France and the UK get involved in similar or far worse subsidised activities). Only a few internet wine geeks (including myself) have noticed this row. The only thing that has happened is that a few people are a bit upset by the way posts are handled (eliminated) on the Squires board. That has happened before and the forum only keeps getting bigger and bigger with more members and posts every month.

Even now, at the peak of the "crises" when some people claim that the end is near for Parker, the WA and the Squires forum, there have been more posts on the Squires forum in the past hours than there have been on this forum (or most other wine forums) over the last week. Posts by people who by the way seem interested in normal wine discussions and not in exchanging strong arguments over the internet (they seem quite normal people actually). I think that only a handful of people, including squires himself, are responsible for the poor image that some people have of the participants of that forum. (I do not participate on the squires forum so I'm not defending myself).

Unless Squires or Parker show even far bigger faults in their far too pro-active crisis management, I really do not see why this will change something. Most people who are now "upset" already had problems with either Squires or with Parker's status before this event.

Coincidentally, I just received a message that my subscription to the WA would be automatically renewed. I guess that means that they will at least have one subscriber in the coming year

ChrisW

[Rieslingfan]

Jim,

David Schildknecht personally addressed the issue of late 2006 Burgundy coverage. He fell on the sword for not getting it done. He has the notes, but has not put them in a publishable form as of yet. He's stretched like "butter scraped over too much bread" (to steal a line from my favorite movie), and never really seems able to finish anything. It's too bad. I feel for hte guy, as he is trying to cover a ton of stuff & ends up covering nothing.

Disclaimer: I consider David S a personal friend. He has dined at my house, though I am not ITB, so I suppose that means it's ok.

[AlexR]

Hi Chris,

Yes, I will own up to a bit of wishful thinking, but it's not totally pie-in-the-sky either!

When I was first learning about wine, the only serious source of information was the English press. Americans were much less present, much less systematic, and much less expert at tasting great Bordeaux. This is understandable: the Americans didn't have the same traditions and were much further away. As long as you knew the 1855 classification by heart and a few major trends (Rauzan Gassies /down, Lynch Bages /up, etc.) you were pretty much considered to be up on Bordeaux.

Then people started travelling, and Robert Parker set up his own little business (presumably in his garage). He emancipated Americans from the British. He also introduced an unorthodox and highly personal way of rating wine. In short, he upset the apple cart. Then came a series of other publications around the world that commissioned people/tasters/journalists/whatever to taste and report back home. This never used to be the case.

I feel as though the Internet has made a big difference too. No, Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts has not unseated Robert Parker. But it *does* give us to opportunity to share our own input and challenge Parker's or any other opinion that we disagree with - something that was not possible in the past.

Can one equate quality with quantity? Because there are more posters on the Squires site, they are more worthwhile?
While contributors to Internet forums are only a tiny part of the winedrinking public, aren't they the most gung-ho consumers, with the biggest budgets, as well as important opinion leaders?

You see this Squires/Parker fiasco as a tempest in a teapot. Time will tell. But I think there has been a certain amount of serious discredit, and that the Internet microcosm has an importance out of all proportion to its size.

Robert Parker is 61 years old. Other people are waiting in the wings to take over. And I predict that no one will ever again hold the same sway, because we now communicate in a very different way. There is *feedback* and we don't have to live under anyone's dictatorship, benevolent or otherwise .
Information circulates far more freely and people travel much more. You, in a way, had the same the same opportunity to taste wines at the Weekend des Grands Amateurs as a famous wine writer. This would have been impossible even 5 years ago!

So, the times they are a changin'.

All the best,
Alex

[JimHow]

Ah that's too bad, David, he did a great job on the 2005 Burg vintage and I'm trying to gather more information on the 2006 Burg vintage, which, from my very limited experience, seems to be quite good.

Chris is right, there will be little impact to the success of the Wine Advocate as a result of this scandal. Over 50,000 people apparently subscribe to the WA, at $75 per subscription. That would seem to be a nice little living for a country lawyer from Maryland. I don't see that threatened. I just think it is hilarious to see what's going on over at the Squires site because from the first day I read anything written by Squires I thought to myself, this guy is an asshole. Of course, I'm an asshole too, so I guess it takes one to know one. As for the quantity of posts on the Squires site relative to BWE, that's all fine and good, but the day BWE starts to develop the poisonous dynamic of the Squires site is the day I leave as Philosopher King of BWE.

[Rieslingfan]

Must be something about lawyers.

[JEP_62]

They handled this situation unbelievably stupid at the WA and Squires is as unfairly dominant as he has always been, but I don't see any reason why this will not blow over very soon. That is, if there is something to really blow over since nothing really happened. The ethical infringements were very minor (all well-known publications in e.g. France and the UK get involved in similar or far worse subsidised activities).
ChrisW

But RP (and the WA by association) has always (from my perception anyway) held himself to a higher standard. He built his reputation on being an independent wine critic that doesn't accept those types of junkets. Finding out other WA contributors do is a breach of the faith people had in WA.

BTW, I don't think this is limited to a few internet wine geeks anymore. WSJ picked up the story and I would be suprised if other main stream media outlets didn't follow.

Andy

[DavidG]

...but the day BWE starts to develop the poisonous dynamic of the Squires site is the day I leave as Philosopher King of BWE.

Jim, look at the title of this thread...

I still tend to align with Chris in that this is much ado about, well, not very much. I guess it's human nature to get excited about the train wreck that developed on the Squires board, but it seems out of character for BWE that this thread has occupied the top spot for most of the last couple of days. Of course, my post is contributing to that, so I will stay on the sidelines on this issue from here on out.

[JimHow]

I disagree, DavidG, the thing about BWE is nobody here preaches to others what they should or should not say. That's the way they do it on the Squires site and that's what gets them in trouble all the time. We post "nasty" and rough-and-tumble stuff here on BWE all the time. What I find poisonous about the Squires site is the know-it-all and self-righteousness and censorship and the preaching by the likes of Squires and others about what is right, what is wrong, etc. Everyone here on BWE should feel free to post their opinions without being preached to. One of the best threads we had on this site lastt year was the thread on the presidential race. I don't know of anyplace else on the internet where friends could have such animated and diverse opinions, without it spiraling into insult and censorship. It is the BWE way, and I encourage it rather than discourage it. Sincerely, Jimmy "The Man Who Was Called 'Vicious' By James Suckling" How.

[jal]

It has finally gotten to the point where the Wine Advocate credibility has come down to the level of the Wine Spectator's. The images of Suckling in Mondovino were enough to make me cancel my subscription to that magazine. Now, the arrogant behavior of Squires, Miller and Parker is turning me off the Wine Advocate.

These guys are using my subscription money to supplement their lifestyle and not to provide me with a service. Maybe it's me, maybe my expectations are too high, but when I pay for a service, I expect the providers to supply that service to the best of their ability. Now I see that they are at best helping their buddies sell me their products and at worst, taking bribes. The arrogance with which they are answering questions (when they do not delete those questions), the condescension with which they treat the subscribers and the press (not the blogosphere; I am talking about the Wall Street Journal and Eric Asimov), and the outright lies behind which they are hiding have made me lose all confidence in their brand.

I will not renew my subscription to the erobertparker.com website. I will from now on count on Burghound and John Gilman's View From the Cellar for in depth reviews and on independent websites such as this one for specific notes.

Sorry about the rant, as you can see, I am not very amused by the affair. I believe I and the rest of the subscribers to the Parker brand deserve at least an apology, maybe even a refund. Until then, count me as one unsatisfied customer.

[stefan]

Jacques, I read ya. I just reversed my automatic renewal option to ebob.

stefan

[JimHow]

Amen, brother....

[Blanquito]

Mark Squires is a god, he put the immoderator in moderator, the way he rudely slaps around people he doesn't like is so cool, he always gets the last word.

This message will self-sensor in 15 seconds...

[JimHow]

I want to cross examine Mark Squires on the issues raised by those ebob patriots deleted into the netherworld of cyberspace.
If he outwits me I will shave my head and post a picture of myself sniffing into a Riedel port glass on the homepage of BWE....
Oh wait....

[JimHow]

I will substitute a northern Medoc for port....
Seriously, this picture could be me if I just shaved my head....

[JimHow]

I think we should post this picture on the homepage of BWE, what do you think?

[Houndsong]

Wow that is a man-crush inducing pic. I want a bromance with him.

[stefan]

I just saw this news flash.

WINE BOARD ATTORNEY BATTLE (AP). Jim Howaniec, aka Jimmy "Mad Dawg" How, a noted attorney from Lewiston, Maine, and moderator of the acclaimed internet wine board, bordeauxwineenthusiasts.com, started a thread on his board titled "Is Mark Squires a Liar?" Mark "The Square" Squires, an attorney in Philadelphia, is the moderator of the large but heavily criticized wine board housed at the erobertparker.com. Squires also publishes articles on wines in Robert Parker's "Wine Advocate" magazine. Howaniec's post was prompted by Squire's closing of threads on his board that questioned Squire's ethics in accepting travel funds from the Israeli government and ViniPortugal (a trade association whose aim is to promote Portuguese wines) to visit Israel and Portugal for the purpose of tasting and reporting on wines from those countries. After threatening to sue Howaniec for libel for the title of Howaniec's post, Howaniec modified the title to "Is Mark Squires Being Forthcoming?" The squabble between these wine drinking (their acquaintances say "wine guzzling") lawyers continues as all early responses to Howaniec's post bear the title
"Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?"

[stefan]

Apparently The Square has deleted all threads that contained criticism of the junkets as well as Parker's letter to the WSJ. I think that earlier he just closed threads and deleted specific posts.

stefan

[Rieslingfan]

At this point does it really matter anymore?

[JimHow]

Ha ha I decided to modify the title Stefan as part of my "kinder and gentler" pledge. I don't want to be called "vicious" yet again, it hurts my feelings too much.
I wonder why all those locked threads have disappeared?
Before they all disappeared, did either Squires or Parker answer the questions raised by WvanGorp above, especially the one pertaining to ViniPortugal? My understanding is that Squires/Parker said the Portugal trip was paid for by a "government," and therefore was somehow more appropriate. I have two questions:

1. Did Parker/Squires ever respond to the appropriateness of rating wines provided in a trip paid for by a trade association?
2. Did either of them articulate why accepting payments for a trip from a "government" in whose country the wines come from presents less of a conflict of interest than accepting payments for trips from a "trade association"?

Maybe they did answer those questions, if they did I didn't see them before their responses were deleted. Perhaps there's a perfectly legitimate answer, I just didn't see it.

[Rieslingfan]

Don't start it all over again Jim.

And no, there were not specific reasons, excuses, provisos given out. Even if they had their words would have been parsed endlessly for why they used the term "funded" instead of "paid" or "government funded" instead of "government sponsored."

I can tell you that Mark takes his tasting & scoring very seriously. He goes over the wines at his home & spends a great deal of time on wines that get very little attention, except when folks want to give him grief.

[stefan]

>>
Don't start it all over again Jim.
>>

Why not, David? There are serious issues that have not been addressed by the principals involved. The Wine Advocate and ebob.com are major businesses and those who pay for subscriptions deserve to have their questions answered. You cannot raise questions on The Square's board, so why not here?

stefan

[Rieslingfan]

You actually think you'll get answers here? Please.

[JimHow]

Well, I think David's point is that this has been creating too much ill will.
But, indeed, these are questions that should be answered, especially by Parker, who prides himself on objectivity. Otherwise, they are no better than the Speculator or Wine Enthusiast or Decanter, who rate wines from producers who advertize with them.
All of the ill will aside, though, I was seriously interested in whether Parker/Squires answered those questions. It appeared they did not, and will not. C'est la vie.

[Rieslingfan]

Although in a way they did as Mark posted that he will not even be allowed to go on government sponsored trips anymore. He stated that Bob is going to fund "less frequent" travel to Portugal and Greece, and that Israel may be out for now.

[JimHow]

You're right, I do recall that discussion.
I guess in the end I don't know how serious of a breach of ethics this is, if any.
I think Jacques has said it about best. This has that whole James-Suckling-in-Tuscany feel about it, like a scene right out of Mondovino. I doubt I'll cancel my Wine Advocate subscription, as I still look forward to Parker's notes on Bordeaux and I'll be anxious to read David S's notes on Burgundy/Germany if/when they come out again.

Harry, when is the Rhone book coming out?

[stefan]

Of course I don't think we'll get any answers here, David. But The Square has squelched all discussion on the natural board, perhaps for commercial reasons (i.e., revenue to WA and ebob). I do not like that and think that he and Parker should be called to task.

stefan

[JimHow]

If people like us don't keep them honest, nobody will. It may be bruising to do it, but someone has to. Otherwise, we'll be seeing them next coming down from some villa in the hills of Tuscany with stupid grins on their faces... funded by our subscription dollars.

I'm sure they're not bad people, and they certainly didn't do anything illegal, but in a $3.7 million dollar business that affects many more tens of millions in wine-related revenues, it is healthy to ask these questions and challenge the status quo.

[Rieslingfan]

Posting about it here isn't going to make one bit of difference. I doubt Bob reads any board except his.

[stefan]

David, Bob is certainly aware of BWE and even praised it in one of his books. And do you believe that The Square has not looked at the discussion here?

stefan

[Rieslingfan]

Fair point. But neither one is going to answer a post here, and they have consciously ended discussion of the topic in their home. Maybe at some point something else will come out, but it will be in their time in their way.

[RDD]

Wow Wee
I go ride some miles with my brother in Virginia piedmont and I miss all this.
Anyway my legs hurt and time for some wine.