Is Mark Squires being forthcoming?

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JimHow
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Is Mark Squires being forthcoming?

Post by JimHow »

I've been watching with fascination the censorship that has been going on over at the Squires site over the WSJ article.

Messages are being posted, then deleted into the outer realms of cyberspace. There was a seventeen-message thread that queried why Parker's response to the WSJ was posted as a "sticky" thread, then, when posters challenged the letter, the thread was "locked" by Squires. The thread was quickly deleted.

Numerous messages have been posted and immediately deleted. Most recently, this very legitimate message was posted by someone named "Sean Reed", then deleted in less than five minutes:

This is not a thread about th WSJ!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark, as has been stated here by Mr. Parker your trips to Israel and Portugal were paid for by the govenments of that country so there is no bias.

Well from what I am reading the trip to Portugal was paid for by ViniPortugal a group whos mission statement says;

Quote:
MISSION

Created in 1997, ViniPortugal is a trade association whose aim is to promote Portuguese wines, brandies and vinegars on the domestic and target international markets.

Just wondering what is the truth here?


Any victims of censorship at squires.com should feel free to post here, on "Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts: The Beacon of Free Speech in the World of Wine"!
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by Houndsong »

Jim, your next move is to post links to the WSJ, ebob, and here to every blog you can. Huffingtonpost would be a good start. They are oh so ever so vigilant in the quest for the truth.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Are Mark Squires notes about ports influenced by ViniPortugal?

Has Squires or anyone on that site answered the question raised by Sean Reed?

These are very serious and legitimate questions.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by stefan »

Thanks for letting me back on, Jim. I promise not to call you an idiot again for at least a day. :)

I went over to The Square's board to see what was going on. All I could find was a repost of Parker's letter by a guy named Jay Jewell. All the threads containing criticism of WA personnel apparently were deleted.

stefan
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Bill, I've been monitoring things the last couple hours.
It's really bad, there are people there who are posting messages like the one above, then they're getting quickly deleted by Mark "The Censor" Squires.

You know, in all seriousnness, this is really bad.

They are really fucking this up.

They really should have allowed a vetting on this. They're gonna be burned. It's not going to be the end of the world for them, but they're going to be hurt by this.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

In all seriousness, can someone here answer Sean Reed's question?

I only really started following the controversy in the past 24 hours or so.

My understanding is that, for some reason, Squires is perceived as less culpable of dishonesty because his trips were paid by "governments". I'm not quite sure how that matters, but in any event, it appears at least one recent trip to Portugal was not paid by the Portugese government, but rather by an organization called "ViniPortugal", whose mission is to "promote Portugese wines, brandies, vinegars," etc.

If Squires is then "rating" and "critiquing" these wines in the $3.7 million dollar business that is the Wine Advocate, can someone tell me how this is not a conflict of interest?

Perhaps this question has already been answered on the Squires site, but I have not found it....
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by stefan »

Jim, is there a big difference whether the government rather than a wine industry group pays? If the government pays, it is doing so to promote the wines of the country.

Now if a single winery or small group of wineries pays, that is another matter.

BTW: I subscribe to ebob and went to The Square's article on Israeli wines. Nowhere in it does he disclose who paid for his trip.

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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Can someone explain to me why a junket paid for by a "government" in whose country wines are produced is less of a conflict of interest than a junket from a "commercial" trade association that promotes wines from that country?

It seems to me that the censored threads from the Mark Squires site seemed to make a distinction. Mark Squires's junkets were paid for by governments, while "Doctor" Jay Miller's junkets were paid by commercial interests. The consensus, before the censorship, seemed to be that Miller had done something "more wrong" than Squires?

Can someone explain to me why that is the case?

What exactly is the difference?

By the way, is Doctor Jay Miller a medical doctor?

Also, I'm assuming that "Doctor" Jy Miller is not the same person as the regular-Joe Jay Miller who used to post on the old BWE? He was a good guy, what ever happened to him, anyway?
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

You are reading my mind again, stefan. I was writing the above note while you posted yours just above it.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by jal »

JimHow wrote:
By the way, is Doctor Jay Miller a medical doctor?

Also, I'm assuming that "Doctor" Jy Miller is not the same person as the regular-Joe Jay Miller who used to post on the old BWE? He was a good guy, what ever happened to him, anyway?
He is a clinical psychologist
He is not the same Jay Miller. "Our" Jay Miller has probably the exact opposite palate.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Here is a message that was just posted on the Squires site by someone named WvanGorp, a "senior oenophile". I just read it at 8:15 pm. Seems like a nice fellow from his picture, seems to raise some legitimate questions. I'll paste it here. Let's see how quickly it is deleted on the Squires site....

An Open Letter to Robert Parker

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Bob,

This is an unfortunate but apparently self-inflicted blow to the Wine Advocate’s reputation, which is painful to watch. As you recall, I wrote a very heartfelt private email to you a couple of years ago, alerting you to issues with how TWA was perceived based upon issues with how the board was being run, and how I observed participants on the board were being treated. As I told you at the time, a true friend will tell you the truth even if it is painful to share, and painful to hear—and I privately shared the concern with you regarding the heavy handed moderation style on the board, in which people were either banned or strongly censored for expressing their opinion that did not comport with the “approved view” (my term), and the oftentimes sarcastic, disrespectful way I perceived some of these people to be treated by some of your staff. You recall that I told you that it had almost come to the point that the group of people kicked out were more interesting than the group left over. You were kind enough to reply, and indicated you would look into it and get back to me, but I never received a follow up reply after that. At the time, I figured that I had gone out on a limb to share my concerns with you privately, and that apparently you gave this the weight you felt it deserved, and since I had said my peace, that was all there was to it.

As the recent events have unfolded, I have found myself reflecting on our correspondence about some of the concerns that are now being so openly aired.

The whole Miller/Squires imbroglio raises many questions and has left many people disappointed, and has unfortunately shone a light on both management and operational style at TWA that may be in need of attention. For example:

1) The more I have reflected on the issue with the $25,000 trip and other trips by Jay, I have found myself wondering when you first learned of his sponsored trips and other perquisites. Although I assumed you learned of them just recently, the more I thought about it, I have begun to wonder how you could not have known about his sponsored trips at the time. Assuming he never submitted expenses to you for these trips, who did you think was paying for them? Did it not occur to you that someone else might be paying for them? Did Jay ever mention someone else paid for the trips?

2) Why do you believe the “independent contractors” do not need to follow the same standards you have required for yourself? When you set up your standards, you apparently felt these were important to adhere to. Is it less important that others follow them than you? You have stated that you cannot control their behavior, but you could require that they adhere to the same standards as you for any work they do on your behalf , as a condition of their continued independent contractor status. Seems to me this is imperative for the reputation of TWA. We find ourselves in the strange position of being reminded of the high standards you set for yourself but if others aren’t required to follow them, then the implied question is “Are they really that important to follow?” This isn’t healthy for TWA.

3) Some are asking if there are other standards you so courageously set forth over the years that have eroded, such as your standard of blind tastings whenever possible. Do you still taste wines blind whenever possible, and do you ask that your independent contractors follow this standard? Again, if you felt it important enough to establish in the beginning and important enough to explicitly state in each issue, you must have a good reason. Is TWA still following the stated principle of blind tastings whenever possible?

4) I wasn’t going to bring this up to you again, but in the spirit of Dan Posner being banned, I will one last time. There is a style, which I find troublesome, on the board, of participants and subscribers being at times treated in a heavy handed way that can be seen as sarcastic or lacking in respect. People are sometimes afraid to post certain things, or to bring up certain topics for fear of being insulted, censored or banned. It was, after all, Dan Posner being treated in a sarcastic way by Mark, who accused him (Posner) of bias, with an emoticon of eyes rolling in the thread on Australian wines (article by Steinberger) that was the spark that set off this whole mess. For better or worse, Dan is spirited about these issues, and he now is banned, which as others have said, just angers people more and actually makes a bad situation worse. Internet boards aren’t subject to freedom of speech laws, and it is certainly your choice to ban him, but there are consequences for this type of suppression. These attempts to stifle discussion and debate negate the transparency and democracy you state you want for TWA. If you want it, you might review the list of people who are banned or censored and ask why the list is so large, and why these people were banned. Seemingly small things like moving the threads that discuss CellarTracker to Social Hall bother people and create the impression that you and your independent contractors are either afraid of these issues or are thin skinned or petty. You are the leader—the moderation style of which I speak does not do your stature justice.

As I wrote you privately before, please accept these comments in the spirit they are written—as someone who will go out on a limb to constructively express honest concerns. It seems that this whole mess has touched upon larger issues, such as duplicity, ethics, trust, and respect. Given the complexity and depth of reactions and issues, repairing the damage won’t be easy or quick. True transparency and a move toward more democracy will greatly speed the process.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Wow Sean Reed posted a response, but by 8:21 his response was deleted.
WvanGorp's "open letter" is still thre six minures later, though.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Wow, 8:23....
Less than ten minutes later...
The WvanGorp "open letter" has been "locked"....

Wow! What an asshole!!!
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by Rieslingfan »

It has gotten out of hand, but a couple of points while you sharpen your pitchforks & light your torches:

1. Mark Squires does not rate Ports. That way Pierre Rovani's job, and is now Jay Miller's job. Granted everyone seems to hate Jay Miller (including me, but for somewhat different reasons), but at least he hasn't gone on a paid trip to Portugal.

2. There was about 20 pages of vetting in a separate thread. How many times does the same discussion have to go around and around?

If people are so disgusted then just cancel your subscriptions. If enough people do it then the Wine Advocate will fold & you won't have anyone to tell you what futures to buy.

I wonder if Mr. van Gorp had dinner at DRC.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

I read your response on the Mark Squires site, David, citing the Squires bylaw.
I disagree with you.
A forum is a free-flow of ideas, or it's not a real forum.
the people posting can post their thoughts, and the management can delete if they desire.
And if the management thinks that such censorship is ultimately a good thing in the long run, then that's their decision.
But the Daniel Posners and Sean Reeds and Comte Flaneurs and Alex R's of the world can keep pushing on the other end.
The difference is that Mark Squires will censor them. Here at BWE we'll let them state their case....
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by jal »

Rieslingfan wrote:It has gotten out of hand, but a couple of points while you sharpen your pitchforks & light your torches:

If people are so disgusted then just cancel your subscriptions. If enough people do it then the Wine Advocate will fold & you won't have anyone to tell you what futures to buy.
As the Wine Advocate credibility is plummeting faster than David Ortiz' spot in the Red Sox lineup (sorry Jim, couldn't resist a cheap shot :) ), I may just go ahead and cancel my subscription to erobertparker.com. After all, I don't really want to buy any wine based on the opinion of the winemakers and if my independent reviewer/critic cannot convince me that they are unbiased then this is a topic that needs to be discussed and addressed until I am convinced (one way or another).
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by Houndsong »

I think TWA needs to hire Scott Boras. He did a remarkable job with A-Roid and ManRam.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

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Manny Ramroiez, that is.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Hey, even I agree with you, Jacques.
On both Ortiz and Parker.
I've been preaching for years that there is an arrogance over there on the Mark Squires site that is poisonous, that it is a main distinction between here and there.
We are far from perfect at BWE.
But this controversy just confirms what I've been saying for months/years about the Squires site. They are are arrogant, they know it all, and in the end they are being kicked in the balls by their own hubris.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Manny Ramirez is dirt to me.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by Rieslingfan »

Jim,

Don't confuse my posting of the FAQ with any agreement. I don't think they are good rules, but they are the rules & published as such. I don't see how anyone can be remotely surprised. That's all.

Mark's BB was really enjoyable before it turned into Arpy's playground. Maybe someday it will be fun again after Arpy decides that it's not worth the effort.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Mark's BB was really enjoyable before it turned into Arpy's playground. Maybe someday it will be fun again after Arpy decides that it's not worth the effort.
LOL.

Gulp, I'm afraid to ask, but who is "Arpy"?
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Ok I think I get it "RP"?
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Hey does Francois still post over there?
I think Francois should come back to BWE.
I think this is where he was truly loved, even though I used to yell at him all the time....
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by jal »

While the censorship is troublesome, the behavior of Parker was much worse: defensive and full of half truths. Heck, we are after all paying customers and we deserve to know that the product we are buying - unbiased reviews - is solid. While I didn't always agree with the reviews, I never had doubts about the integrity of the Advocate..... until now.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Sadly, I think I agree with you, Jacques.
By my estimate, Parker is grossing upwards of 4 million a year. Why he is diminishing himself by hanging around with these lesser people like Squires really amazes me.

I'd like to hear more from that David S fellow, I really like his style, but the last I recall reading from him was on the 2005 Burg vintage a year and a half ago.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by stefan »

>>
I think this is where he was truly loved, even though I used to yell at him all the time....
>>
BD, you have yelled at almost everyone, though maybe not "all the time".

ebob is sinking faster than Enron after I bought it. I am glad that my exposure in ebob is much less....

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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

True, true, Stefan.
If I yell at you that means I love you.
But I'm not sure how well that translates over the internet.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by Rieslingfan »

Jim,

David Schildknecht has done reviews of 2006 White Burgs, 2006 Germans, some Austrian wines and other things since the '05 Burgs.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

David, I think I read something on ebob the past couple weeks that David's notes on the '06 Burgs were not going to be published in the Wine Advocate, which, if true, is ridiculous. I as much as anyone realize that Burgundy does not rock everypne's boat, but nobody can deny the importance of that region in the world of wine. Frankly, I don't see how it can be rated anything less than second to Bordeaux. If Parker is conciously snubbing Burgundy becase of his problems with the winemakers there, then that is just too bad.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

Stefan: There's a good article by Joe Kline written for Time appearing on Yahoo about Robert Gates, you should read it....

The title is: "How Gates shook up the Pentagon and won over Obama."
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by DavidG »

Liked the Kline article, but I don't catch the relevance of it to this discussion, other than the use of the word "empretzel." Great word. Perhaps it could be applied to what is happening over at eBob.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

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I'm trying to understand what has happened. Being neither a subscriber to WA or to ebob, I get my info second hand. Tell me if I'm wrong. You got two guys who have been supping at Parker's table all during a long, decadent meal. At the end of it they both get up on top of the table, pull down their panties, and lay big stinking piles right in the centerpiece. Then the host blames it on the Wall Street Journal.

It seems to me that the WA was once a sort of guerilla journalism. At some point it became bigger than itself, and among the many acolytes were sycophants and sharpies who wanted to make or bolster their own names by association with another. Somehow this seems exceptionally mundane, if that's not oxymoronic.

Parker should shut down the WA and ebob, disassociate himself from whatever clowns are in his retinue (actually he should jettison the retinue), and start a new journal (in whatever media he likes) that is just him and not him and a bunch of tit-suckers. He'd still have plenty of subscribers and not the headaches these jerks have inflicted upon him. Nobody's impugned his integrity yet, just his judgment in a reactionary fit.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by Houndsong »

BTW, how many new members have we got during this pledge drive?
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by William P »

If he is, why do we care?
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

I'm trying to understand what has happened. Being neither a subscriber to WA or to ebob, I get my info second hand. Tell me if I'm wrong. You got two guys who have been supping at Parker's table all during a long, decadent meal. At the end of it they both get up on top of the table, pull down their panties, and lay big stinking piles right in the centerpiece. Then the host blames it on the Wall Street Journal.

It seems to me that the WA was once a sort of guerilla journalism. At some point it became bigger than itself, and among the many acolytes were sycophants and sharpies who wanted to make or bolster their own names by association with another. Somehow this seems exceptionally mundane, if that's not oxymoronic.

Parker should shut down the WA and ebob, disassociate himself from whatever clowns are in his retinue (actually he should jettison the retinue), and start a new journal (in whatever media he likes) that is just him and not him and a bunch of tit-suckers. He'd still have plenty of subscribers and not the headaches these jerks have inflicted upon him. Nobody's impugned his integrity yet, just his judgment in a reactionary fit.
One of the best posts yet on the new BWE.

David, Gates is the former president at Stefan's Texas A&M. I like the guy, personally.... I mean, as Defense Secretaries go, that is....
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

If he is, why do we care?
Bill: I just watched like 30 messages get deleted from the Squires site, most raising legitimate questions about the WSJ article. I just felt this thread was my own little way of challenging the small-penised fascism of Mark Squires over on the other site.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by DavidG »

Gotcha... Gates does seem to be a much straighter shooter than most. But he's got the second-most-impossible job in the country.
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

10:07 pm.... Less than two hours later....
The above thoughtful open letter from WvanGorp has been deleted, with the important questions raised therein apparently unanswered....
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Re: IS MARK SQUIRES A LIAR?

Post by JimHow »

LOL, this message from Sean Reed was deleted in less than five minutes after it was posted.
This is just the stuff I'm casually picking up on this evening, I wonder what I'm missing.

Mark Squires is a fraud.

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