2015 vintage discussion

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JimHow
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

I thought the 100% cabernet 2013 La Lagune was very nice. I wonder if it is available in the US, I'd buy a bottle or two at a reasonable price…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3kZaUnaPF8
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Blanquito
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

My son Gabriel was born in 2013 as well, Nic. 2013 was supposed to be epic in California, so I bought a few bottles of the 2013 Ridge Monte Bello to lay down.

Here's hoping that 2016 is a great year too somewhere, as my daughter Eleanor was just born this past Monday. I need to open a nice champagne.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

I see the 2013 Lagune for $50 from Wallys in LA. Still as a future.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Jeff Leve »

AKR wrote:I spoke with a favored retailer today, to specifically go over their "process" for non standard sizes. What I was most concerned with -- since I don't think there is much economic advantage to buying futures (or perhaps more accurately, for the kinds of items I might consider, since I'm never going to be bidding on Le Pin) but there is value in being able to specify the sizes -- is how reliable that latter benefit really is.

I asked because I have had issues in the past where bottling requests, even with surcharges paid, didn't end up being honored. That has happened across vintages, across retailers. And for the avoidance of doubt, that is from legit places, nothing to do with Premier Cru.

Basically their advice was this (and I'm specifically not naming the retailer) -- keep an eye out for if the merchant offers large quantities of non standard sizes.
Arv... What store is this coming from? Their information is 100% wrong. WInes bought En Primeur are sold in liters. The buyer, for example you, can have the store, ask the negociant to have the wine bottled in the size you like. This is only done in full case, 9L allotments. The chateau gets the request from the negociant and honors it at the time of bottling. I do not believe negociants add an upcharge, but the store might. The reason large or small formats can become difficult to find later, is, various sized bottles might have been accounted for already.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by DavidG »

Congratulations Patrick!

I've been blithely deleting all of the retailer 2015 Bordeaux emails. This thread is tempting me to take a look. It's a slippery slope...
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stefan
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by stefan »

The 2013 La Lagune tasted more like a Batailley than a La Lagune.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

Jeff Leve wrote:
AKR wrote:I spoke with a favored retailer today, to specifically go over their "process" for non standard sizes. What I was most concerned with -- since I don't think there is much economic advantage to buying futures (or perhaps more accurately, for the kinds of items I might consider, since I'm never going to be bidding on Le Pin) but there is value in being able to specify the sizes -- is how reliable that latter benefit really is.

I asked because I have had issues in the past where bottling requests, even with surcharges paid, didn't end up being honored. That has happened across vintages, across retailers. And for the avoidance of doubt, that is from legit places, nothing to do with Premier Cru.

Basically their advice was this (and I'm specifically not naming the retailer) -- keep an eye out for if the merchant offers large quantities of non standard sizes.
Arv... What store is this coming from? Their information is 100% wrong. WInes bought En Primeur are sold in liters. The buyer, for example you, can have the store, ask the negociant to have the wine bottled in the size you like. This is only done in full case, 9L allotments. The chateau gets the request from the negociant and honors it at the time of bottling. I do not believe negociants add an upcharge, but the store might. The reason large or small formats can become difficult to find later, is, various sized bottles might have been accounted for already.
Like I said in the original post, not willing to share the retailer, but suggest those who are considering non standard sizes can certainly call their vendors about what the process is, and where it can break down -- if the bottling size is an important consideration.

For whatever reasons, it has not worked 100% perfectly for me in the past. I do not know why and I'm trying to understand what choices -- if any -- I can make that can reduce that risk.

My instinct is that the more intermediaries are involved in the supply chain, the more chance for a glitch.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by greatbxfreak »

2015 Petit Village is the best ever wine I have tasted from this property and also debut vintage for new technical director, Diana Garcia Berrouet, wife of brother to Olivier Berrouet (Petrus). A bit expensive yes.

2015 Pichon Comtesse is a huge hit - best vintage in 25 years I think...

2015 Phelan Segur - probably best ever wine from this property.

2015 Larrivet Haut Brion red and white - fine quality for money.

I've not finished my epic story about 2015 primeur, but it can be followed via this link - http://www.greatbordeauxwines.com/vintages/2015
Hope to finish this story by end of this week.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Izak

What are your impressions of:

Beychevelle
Leoville Barton
D'Issan
Rauzan-Segla
Pape Clement
Haut-Bailly

In 2015?

Do you have an updated version of your notes/vintage assessment?

I know you and I were the first to call it as a great vintage,

Atb

CFdB
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by greatbxfreak »

Ian,

You can check the link in my previous post.

Didn't taste d'Issan and Haut Bailly.

2015 Beychevelle is slightly better than 2014 but the rise of 16.6% in price doesn't justify buying 2015. I bought 2014 Beychevelle.

I like L.Barton which together with L. Poyferre is just behind L.L.Cases. Rauzan Segla is splendid.
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Comte Flaneur
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Yes sorry Izak, I will read your link
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

Blanquito wrote:My son Gabriel was born in 2013 as well, Nic. 2013 was supposed to be epic in California, so I bought a few bottles of the 2013 Ridge Monte Bello to lay down.

Here's hoping that 2016 is a great year too somewhere, as my daughter Eleanor was just born this past Monday. I need to open a nice champagne.
Blanquito:

Great news.

I've only had a few 2013's from NorCal, but in general, they've been quite good. It's the first vintage I'm buying since 2001, on release. Every now and then I make half assed efforts at backfilling 2007's though. I think a person with a BDX heavy cellar would do well to tilting some acquisitions toward 13 CA, especially if its a year to memorialize.

GreatBxFreak:

Thanks for the color on the Petit Village. It does sound great. I'm a little surprised they have chosen to mark themselves as higher/better than Gazin. You and Pomerollover certainly have more experience with PV and Gazin than I but I'm hard pressed to think of vintages where I liked Petit Vilalge better than Gazin. And just rough ball parking, it's usually priced lower. So seeing that upended in 2015 surprises me.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Congratulations on a new BWEer in the world, best to his mother!
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Nicklasss »

Congratulations Blanquito! And to the mom too.

It is important to have descendants for the best Bordeaux we have! And buying bottles to enjoy with them later, is a must!

Nic
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by stefan »

Congratulations, Patrick!
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by stefan »

Arv, I also cannot imagine paying more for Petit Village than for Gazin. But then I am 15+ years behind.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

yes i've noticed petit village seems to be appearing in futures offerings.
i mean, this has been a pretty weak wine over the years, no?
so there's a new winemaker. so everything has turned around overnight?
i'm skeptical.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Chateau Vin »

Congratulations Blanquito. All the best...
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Blanquito
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

Thanks everyone for the congrats. I've been walking on air all week, the homestead is now complete (though we need a dog still, once the kids are a bit older). I sure hope kids keep you young, indeed I'm counting on it!
Last edited by Blanquito on Fri May 13, 2016 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AKR
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

JimHow wrote:yes i've noticed petit village seems to be appearing in futures offerings.
i mean, this has been a pretty weak wine over the years, no?
so there's a new winemaker. so everything has turned around overnight?
i'm skeptical.
From a sample set of maybe 8-9 vintages, I've enjoyed Petit Village more than the critics do, but like many in the 'good not great' group, they are more dependent on the vintage, than the greatest terroirs and cellarmasters.

But its also always felt like its priced according to its neighborhood, rather than its intrinsic quality. On release, I remember the 94 being like $25 or so when the 93 l'Evangile was like $35. Buying and drinking both, the ratio didn't seem to make sense. So after 2000, I don't think I've bought any modern examples -- there are so many lovely wines one can choose from at the $50 price point in the right bank. Even if my ears did prick up when Houndsong gave a shoutout for the 2008 or 2012 down at Wallys.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by greatbxfreak »

JimHow,

As I did write in my earlier post, there was a change both at La Conseillante and Petit Village during summer 2015.

Marielle Cazaux, technical director at PV moved to La Conseillante and Diana Garcia Berrouet replaced her at Petit Village.

My only worry for 2015 Petit Village is that it will be substantially filtrated prior to bottling and lose on concentration and richness.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Congratulations Patrick on the birth of Eleanor. Inspired choice of name. You know there is an Eleanor wine index?

http://eleanor-wine.com
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

Blanquito wrote:Thanks everyone for the congrats. I've been walking on air all week, the homestead is now complete (though we need a dog still, once the kids are a bit older). I sure hope kids keep you young, indeed I'm counting on it!
Good rule of thumb for dogs & kids : make sure one category is housebroken/pottytained before adding the other group to the mix....
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Blanquito
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

AKR wrote:
Blanquito wrote:Thanks everyone for the congrats. I've been walking on air all week, the homestead is now complete (though we need a dog still, once the kids are a bit older). I sure hope kids keep you young, indeed I'm counting on it!
Good rule of thumb for dogs & kids : make sure one category is housebroken/pottytained before adding the other group to the mix....
I like it. This captures the essence of our timeline.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

So I haven't seen this one from anyone else yet, but an email offering for the 2015 La Grave a Pomerol hit my inbox this morning.

Asking $600/cs, not being sold by the bottle but that is $50/per. That's sort of the price where 2005 and 2009 are changing hands at now.

The rub is that even though this is not in the elite category of Pomerol, there is still not much made of it, and finding it later isn't something one should count on. It is priced quite cunningly, at the threshold of NFW ... yet plausible justification, if its indeed as good as the critics suggest.

I still kick myself for guzzling my 1998's young thinking I had lots, when in fact, I'd gotten confused, and didn't have any more. That was a jackass move.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JCNorthway »

2015 Pontet Canet at $1,260 a case at HDH. In light of recent pricing, it actually sounds reasonably priced (sorry to say).
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

This is something Neil Martin wrote in his Wine Journal maybe a half decade ago. I think it still rings true.
=============
As I have repeatedly said: en primeur must have a raison d’être, whether to buy wines prematurely to secure a rarity (which most Bordeaux wines are patently not) or to make some a return on their investment and minimize their opportunity cost. What the châteaux are in danger of doing is equating secondary market prices to release prices because in an instant, you neuter any incentive to participate in the primeur system. In a nutshell: you ain’t lost your allocation, you ain’t made a penny profit, so why bother?

And as I have mentioned on a previous Forum posting, the irony is that vintages like 2006 and 2007 offer a golden opportunity to embrace all those who have been made refugees by Bordeaux’s hyper-inflation, currently only surpassed by Zimbabwe (and possibly crude oil). I am not talking about those with cellars of First Growths, but your ordinary, middle-class, middle-income wine-lovers who buy the odd case of Second Growth or Fifth Growth every year. If the châteaux bit the bullet and radically decreased their prices by say 50% or even more, what they might lose in short-term profit could be regained by loyal Bordeaux-lovers who once bought year in, year out, irrespective of vintage. As I predicted four or five years ago, the Bordelaise short-term perspective destabilizes the market so that the peaks become insurmountable (2000 and 2005) whilst nobody wants to wallow in the troughs (2006 and potentially 2007.) Most oenophiles can comprehend that; most winemakers comprehend that…the question is, will the shareholders, financial controllers and boards of the luxury brands who own the château understand that?
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Chateau Vin »

Hmmm. 2015 Giscours..Jim, I know you rated really high the 2010 (or 2009?) Giscours. FWIW according Sucker, its the best since 1970s. Even better, according to Neal, it's the best since 1961..The 2015 Giscours is around 50 bucks...


96-97 Points, James Suckling: "This sets a new level for Giscours with blackberry, black truffle and blueberry. So much walnut and cedar. Full body, dense and incredibly long and powerful. Clearly the best Giscours since 1970 and 1975."


94-96 Points, Robert Parker's Wine Advocate: "The 2015 Giscours is a blend of 70% Cabernet Sauvignon, 25% Merlot and 5% Petit Verdot. That is in stark comparison to older vintages, for example the 2000 Giscours that was 50/50 Cabernet and Merlot. This vintage is matured in 50% new oak. Winemaker Alexandre Van Beek told me that the 2015 "...reflects the true terroir at Giscours that created the great wines of the 1960s and 1970s." That is something to live up to with fresh memories of the 1961 in my brain. The bouquet is very intense and almost "untamed" at first, but it calms down in the glass, revealing attractive scents of blackberry, raspberry, cedar and graphite. This is a Giscours determined to make a good impression...and it does. The palate is medium-bodied with fine tannin, very pure, a little spicier than recent vintages, adorned with a gentle crescendo in the mouth towards a really quite fantastic, tensile, complex and compelling finish. Having tasted the 1961 and 1970 Giscours just a few months ago, I wager that the 2015 will be the best since the 1961. Time to fall back in love with this great Margaux property." - Neal Martin
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Comte Flaneur »

In this era of super low interest rates there is an added incentive to buy en primeur.

So far I have bought six packs of Pape Clement rouge, Beychevelle and Leoville-Barton. I have a couple more on my hit list.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

I saw that, CV, I'm tempted by 2015 Giscours. And the price seems right.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

I've been disappointed by the Mouiex stable EP prices.

They are priced, at or above, where one can find their existing best other vintages.

They do same thing with Dominus/Napanook every year it seems like too.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Chateau Vin »

JimHow wrote:I saw that, CV, I'm tempted by 2015 Giscours. And the price seems right.
What's the holdup Jim? Pull the trigger... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Chateau Vin »

AKR wrote:I've been disappointed by the Mouiex stable EP prices.

They are priced, at or above, where one can find their existing best other vintages.

They do same thing with Dominus/Napanook every year it seems like too.
You are right, Arv... They have been doing this for the past few years. Even more so in regards to Hosanna/Certan-Giraud. Although they have been making improvements since they purchased Certan-Giraud, I feel the price hike has preceded well before any quality improvements showed up in the final product...Don't know what to make of the pricing of Trotanoy and Lafleur Petrus either...
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

Chateau Vin wrote:
AKR wrote:I've been disappointed by the Mouiex stable EP prices.

They are priced, at or above, where one can find their existing best other vintages.

They do same thing with Dominus/Napanook every year it seems like too.
You are right, Arv... They have been doing this for the past few years. Even more so in regards to Hosanna/Certan-Giraud. Although they have been making improvements since they purchased Certan-Giraud, I feel the price hike has preceded well before any quality improvements showed up in the final product...Don't know what to make of the pricing of Trotanoy and Lafleur Petrus either...
I can understand that the end consumption value of the 2015 La Grave a Pomerol may certainly end up being $55 or whatever. But I don't think one needs to pay that today. That might be its value, and where it'll be available 10 years from now.

They've asked $100 for 2015 Latour a Pomerol, which is where the 2005 is generally, although as I mentioned on the deals thread, odd bottles may slip through for less. Generally I think their initial in bottle scores are not as good as where they will end up at the 10 year retrospective. Which means I do not think they will pop that much in price, especially if the producer has taken most of that for themselves up front.

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this about the Mouiex stable, muttering WTF, as I look at my inbox.

Separately, I have not bought any La Cabanne for maybe 15 years, but it seems like things are on the upswing there, and -- incredibly -- I might look for some of that. They've gone to a very non interventionist way of elevage, and the critics seem to like what its done for that historically coarse Pomerol.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

AKR wrote:
Chateau Vin wrote:
AKR wrote:I've been disappointed by the Mouiex stable EP prices.

They are priced, at or above, where one can find their existing best other vintages.

They do same thing with Dominus/Napanook every year it seems like too.
You are right, Arv... They have been doing this for the past few years. Even more so in regards to Hosanna/Certan-Giraud. Although they have been making improvements since they purchased Certan-Giraud, I feel the price hike has preceded well before any quality improvements showed up in the final product...Don't know what to make of the pricing of Trotanoy and Lafleur Petrus either...
I can understand that the end consumption value of the 2015 La Grave a Pomerol may certainly end up being $55 or whatever. But I don't think one needs to pay that today. That might be its value, and where it'll be available 10 years from now.

They've asked $100 for 2015 Latour a Pomerol, which is where the 2005 is generally, although as I mentioned on the deals thread, odd bottles may slip through for less. Generally I think their initial in bottle scores are not as good as where they will end up at the 10 year retrospective. Which means I do not think they will pop that much in price, especially if the producer has taken most of that for themselves up front.

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this about the Mouiex stable, muttering WTF, as I look at my inbox.

Separately, I have not bought any La Cabanne for maybe 15 years, but it seems like things are on the upswing there, and -- incredibly -- I might look for some of that. They've gone to a very non interventionist way of elevage, and the critics seem to like what its done for that historically coarse Pomerol.
I do not recall seeing this before, but prior emails were offering the 2015 Latour a Pomerol for $100, and today I'm seeing emails offering it at $85.

What I mean is: its unusual to cut prices so fast.

Maybe its currency effects or something...but the Euro is only down about 4% from its April highs versus the greenback. So that doesn't seem like it could be all of the move.

Perhaps the market feedback i.e. no transactions happening suggested that JP Mouiex needed to moderate their prices for that estate/vintage.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Chateau Vin »

AKR wrote:
I do not recall seeing this before, but prior emails were offering the 2015 Latour a Pomerol for $100, and today I'm seeing emails offering it at $85.

What I mean is: its unusual to cut prices so fast.

Maybe its currency effects or something...but the Euro is only down about 4% from its April highs versus the greenback. So that doesn't seem like it could be all of the move.

Perhaps the market feedback i.e. no transactions happening suggested that JP Mouiex needed to moderate their prices for that estate/vintage.
Hmmmm...I don't know if 2015 vintage is a blockbuster vintage for LaP in terms of quality, but $85 for LaP enpremieur is still pricey for me...
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Yeah, there are no good deals in Pomerol. Haven't been any for at least 15 years.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

2015 is supposed to be a good year for Latour a Pomerol, but that is just what I read. I would observe that it is hard to find the wine later; compared to the first growths they make only about 5-10% as much wine.

Pomerol is/always been a very expensive region. But I don't see that changing anytime soon. And I'm not even sure its reached Peak Bordeaux (unlike the big flashy Medocs). I have a hard time believing Chinese billionaires are really chasing these -- ex Petrus.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Gazin seems to be rationally priced.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

greatbxfreak wrote:JimHow,

As I did write in my earlier post, there was a change both at La Conseillante and Petit Village during summer 2015.

Marielle Cazaux, technical director at PV moved to La Conseillante and Diana Garcia Berrouet replaced her at Petit Village.

My only worry for 2015 Petit Village is that it will be substantially filtrated prior to bottling and lose on concentration and richness.
I got this offer this evening from Rimmerman

Dear Friends,

Would you like to get into the 2015 Pomerol party for a “reasonable” tariff?

Try this.

Petit-Village has had a breakout vintage with the 2015 and the additional 6 months of elevage has made it even deeper and more pliant - it’s the finest Petit-Village in years, maybe ever.

To be fair, I will print Neal’s review (as I’ve done for all Bordeaux futures) but he must have had a tired sample (he also has the wrong blend noted – Antonio lists it correctly). Maybe this is a review of the 2nd wine in error? What I’ve tasted mirrors that of Antonio Galloni (and nearly everyone else, including the rough grader René Gabriel who gave it 18/20 – the same note that he gave 2015 Gazin from Pomerol. Neal gave the 2015 Gazin 94–96pts)...

Neal Martin (WA): “The 2015 Petit Village is a blend of 90% Merlot and 10% Cabernet Franc, the first wine to be made by Diana Garcia-Berrouet (the daughter-in-law of Jean-Claude for those that recognize the appended name). It has a straightforward black cherry and iodine-scented bouquet that needs to muster a little more complexity given the terroir. The palate is medium-bodied with fine tannin, perhaps more filigree than previous vintages. Given the precocity on the Right Bank, I would have liked more depth on the finish, though it is well balanced with ample freshness on the finish. It is a Pomerol estate that just needs to find its "groove.” 2020 - 2035. 90-92pts”

...and, a contrary opinion that mirrors my own...

Antonio Galloni: “The 2015 Petit-Village is the first vintage made under the stewardship of new technical director Diana Berrouet-Garcia. An explosive Pomerol, the 2015 possesses remarkable intensity, texture and overall depth. Dark cherry jam, smoke, licorice, crushed rocks and espresso are some of the many notes that grace this exceptional Pomerol. I can't remember tasting a Petit-Village this good. The interplay of Merlot fruit and more aromatic, savory Cabernet Franc/Sauvignon-inflected notes is simply compelling. The blend is 71% Merlot, 20% Cabernet Franc and 9% Cabernet Sauvignon. 93-96pts”

Not that I am a soothsayer but I have a feeling this wine will begin to ratchet up in $, especially if Neal retastes it (he will) and reassesses his initial judgement (I believe he will as well). With the real possibility/probability of an eventual $80-90+ tariff for the 2015 Petit Village and the rarity of 2015 Pomerol as the vintage gets closer to release (plus the “association” with 2015 in general and Pomerol in specific) adds up to a very safe investment for your dinner table and your portfolio!


============

This was an estate that led off its EP at $70 per to US customers. Now its true the currency has moved, but perhaps uptake has been slow, since they are testing a price point they've never achieved before.

So I'm not surprised to see it linger a bit. Rimmerman is proposing $63 for it now, 10% lower than the feverish Springtime prices (which admittedly he was not involved in).

Between 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014 and eventually 2015 when it lands, there is a lot of good young Pomerol available, so I don't see the need to rush, especially as the Euro continues to spiral downward.
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