2015 vintage discussion

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AKR
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2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

Leve has posted some comments on the overall vintage. I have not dug into his appellation tasting notes.

http://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/201 ... st-report/
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

Thanks for starting this. I have unsubscribed from all merchants. So, seeing any interesting offers?
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AKR
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

I unsubscribed from a lot too. A few offers have rolled in, but I don't think futures in general make much sense.

For example: I've had enough requests (and premiums paid) for special bottlings (halves, mags etc) get screwed up that even that reason for prepaying doesn't make sense. For some of these I really would not have bought the quantity required if it wasn't for the reason of getting halves or what not. So when I get a full case delivered of 750mls, when 375mls were paid for, a $20 refund doesn't really make up for the dissatisfaction I feel. And now that I'm not in a big hub city for wine geeks (or at least I've not found them) trading excess stuff with friends is harder.
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Blanquito
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

I unsubscribed from everything too. I just troll online auction sites these days, mostly winning at WineBid, mostly losing at K&L and TCWC. Passes the time.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Comte Flaneur »

I am so excited about this vintage, No tongue in cheek intended here, I just wish I was 1/ 20 years younger and 2/ considerably richer because if I was I suspect I would be filling my boots.

I think 2014 was the warm up with less than ideal growing conditions, but I have never be so excited about a Bordeaux vintage in my life. Even if I have to sell the family silver.

The messages I am getting are these.

1. Ideal growing conditions
2. Restraint - is this a post -RMP thing?
3. Comparisons with 1985 and 1953

All combined with 'state of the art' techno.

If accurate this is surely manna from heaven? Of course it is far too early to tell or judge, so I looks forward to reading Alex's and Neal's notes.

Jeff had some interesting observations, including Latour using 97% cab in the blend. I found his diagnosis much more useful than Suckling's who was throwing around superlatives including 'best ever vintage' like confetti.

I hope I might be able to taste a few on Fiday and Saturday. We have some folks coming over to Pall Mall to show a few wines.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

The year I was most excited about, as it happened was 2003. And what a crush to get the St Estephes EP.
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JimHow
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

So now we're getting emails for "the best ever" 94-95 point 2015 Chasse Spleen, at only $28. I like Chasse Spleen. Haven't been reading the reviews. Are these the types of prices and scores we are seeing out there? Where are these scores coming from? Is the Wine Advocate out yet?
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by jckba »

Issue 224 of the Wine Advocate which will contain Neil Martin's reviews on Bordeaux 2015 is expected at the end of April or any day now.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

If Neil Martin comes out with 94-95 for the likes of Chasse Spleen and it's priced at $28, I may be entering my first -- and last -- futures campaign ever.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by marcs »

I am done with new vintages. I'm almost 50. The one thing I have learned for certain about Bordeaux is that you are making a multi-decade commitment when you buy a bottle.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Nicklasss »

For Jim it is different, as he likes his Bordeaux younger than 10 years old.

I might dive for a 2012 Oratoire de Chasse Spleen this weekend, made from 75-80 % cabernet sauvignon, from the young vines of the chateau.

The 2 real questions:

1. Is 2015 better than 2009 or 2010?
2. What will be the prices of those 2015?

Nic
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Chateau Vin »

Kl wines is offering 2015 chasse for 29.99. FWIW, Jim's 'tuscan' friend thinks it's worth 94-95 points...
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

"The best ever..."

If Neil Martin agrees, I'm in for a case...
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Blanquito
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

JimHow wrote:If Neil Martin comes out with 94-95 for the likes of Chasse Spleen and it's priced at $28, I may be entering my first -- and last -- futures campaign ever.
Famous last words. 2010 was my "final futures campaign" (we'll see, this thread isn't helping). I think we should all embrace Stefan's example and starting laying down wine for the great tasting room in the sky.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by dstgolf »

Marcs,

50 is the new 40 so you have lots of time. I said the same thing years back and still loaded up on the 09 and 10...very happy that I did. A few 2012 and more 2014. I'll be selective with 2015 and will not go as deep with the glacial agers but the vintage should hold promise across the board.I certainly plan to buy selectively and with the notes coming out I'm like a child preparing for Christmas making my list!! At 50 I wouldn't hesitate as their is plenty of time to enjoy. 15 years out you'll be in your prime at 65 with a good window of 15-20 years beyond...just ask Stefan!! I like Jim's approach too. Many of these wines are also delicious young as I'm finding out sampling the 09s and 10s. I agree with Ian this is shaping up to be a ducks in the barrel kind of year. Maybe not at good as 05,09,and 10 from early reports but only time will tell. After all this was a BWE vintage. We left our magic behind and this should exceed all expectations...I promise. :D
Danny
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Chateau Vin
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Chateau Vin »

Nicklasss wrote:For Jim it is different, as he likes his Bordeaux younger than 10 years old.

I might dive for a 2012 Oratoire de Chasse Spleen this weekend, made from 75-80 % cabernet sauvignon, from the young vines of the chateau.

The 2 real questions:

1. Is 2015 better than 2009 or 2010?
2. What will be the prices of those 2015?

Nic

I think I have half a case of 09 Oratoire. I was not specifically looking for that wine, but when I looked the price tag for 26 at an Indy store, I got half a case. Now I am tempted to crack open one...
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

I think I'm going to go into my first and last futures campaign with the 2015 vintage.
How does this work?
When the Wine Advocate scores come out in the next day or so, more prices will be released?
I'm planning on buying 10-20 cases from MacArthur and Zachys, the Barde Haut, Cantemerle, and Chasse Spleen types, with a random first and second growth here and there, and that will be the end of my en futuro career.

It's weird, since my little health scare this year, I've no longer felt that 50 is the new 40, 60 is the new 50, etc.
I've been feeling every bit 57 years old, even though I've lost 15 pounds, etc.
My heart arteries are clogged.
Looks like I have a torn meniscus in my right knee.
My hearing is shot, I have to wear earphones during trial.
I'm on six different medications.
High blood pressure, but for the beta blocker.
The systems are starting to shut down(!).
Upper body muscle strength gone.
My bad cholesterol is good, but my good cholesterol is very bad.
I'm at Level 2 now in my "chronic kidney disease," and it's my understanding there is no going back.
At least I'm pissing straight these days, a function of losing weight it seems.

I won my fifth straight jury trial last week (still far from my record of 24 straight not guilty verdicts in the early part of the last decade, by far a record in southern Maine), a successful self-defense trial in an aggravated assault case, but whereas in the past I'd be on my toes dancing at the end of trial ready to go another 12 rounds, the last few cases, including this one, I've felt like I'd been through 15 with Iron Mike.

As John Glenn said to Gordo Cooper during the 1963 Mercury-Atlas 9 space flight, when a bunch of minor systems aboard the craft started to go down one after another, creating a bit of an unexpected mission- and, eventually, life-threatening crisis: "Things are beginning to stack up a little."
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JCNorthway »

Jim, drink more red wine. It's good for most (but not all) of those maladies. :)

And the longer you live, the more of those health issues they solve. So buy those 2015 futures. I'm sure you will be around to enjoy them!
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Jim, drink more red wine. It's good for most (but not all) of those maladies. :)
That's what "they" say, Jon! Myself, I'm skeptical about the whole red wine and dark chocolate are good for you line.

Balance is probably the key….
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by stefan »

Lucie decided to built a gazebo in the back yard. I got the contractor to make sure that the floor is very solid and was speaking with him today about turning the gazebo into another wine room. So far Lucie agrees only to having a small frig there, but the circuits to the gazebo will support full cooling. The next step is to get enough wine so that it is overflowing our three indoor storage places in order to convince Lucie that we need to convert the gazebo.

Jim, as far as having health problems go, you must realize that there are only two things that can happen when you age. You either have health problems or you stop aging. Continue to exercise, eat moderately, and drink more red wine to raise your HDL.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

Jim, get your MMJ license. I believe Maine's in the fold. I recommend a high CBD strain nightly. You'll feel better - and hipper - in no time.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Well, the X-rays are back on my right knee, I have "an old fracture and severe arthritis."
Ugh. Maybe if I rub some red wine into it....
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

The pricing on 2015 futures seems to be pretty reasonable so far, no?
As Jeff said, though, there probably won't be a need to buy the wines I'm looking for as futures.
Still, Cantemerle at $30, Haut Bergey at $22, Chasse Spleen at $29, etc., etc., seems to be pretty fair.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Beychevelle and Pape Clement released here at fair prices. Both look wonderfully attractive. Judging by reviews. If you believe the hype...some of which is probably just that.

That is why I like NM's notes. I suspect he is deliberately going out of his way NOT to hype the vintage...but reading between the lines these are two lovely wines with the reference points being 2005 and 2010, respectively. Oooh if I was younger and much richer.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Just saw them priced at $89 for Pape and $74 for Beychevelle here.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

I thought Pomerol pricing looked rich to me. $70 for Petit Village (82 can sometimes be found for $75) and $45 for Lafleur Gazin?

Gazin seemed fair enough - $65ish. I think I paid $50ish for 2005 EP. Presumably the 2015 will be better.

I don't regard the above as particularly trophies with histories of appreciating, and thusly, offering some compelling reason for purchase EP.

Although I think all are consistently fine wines that I love to drink.

But they don't come with speculator lottery tickets attached, like La Fleur Petrus, Trotanoy, l'Eglise Clinet etc.

I haven't pulled the trigger on anything, yet.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Yeah, the good stuff doesn't look cheap.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

It looks to me like Zachy's has some of the lowest prices by a couple bucks.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Comte Flaneur »

I put my rod over the edge of the pier and landed a six pack of Pape rouge which worked out at $75 a bottle

Here is NM's note:

The 2015 Pape Clement is a blend of 56% Cabernet Sauvignon, 40% Merlot and 4% Cabernet Franc. It was cropped at 40 hl/ha between 25 September and 15 October with berry by berry destemming. It has a drop-dead gorgeous bouquet that continues the ever greater finesse that has been imparted into this Pape-Clément in recent years. It is extremely precise, almost crystalline. The palate is underpinned by fine tannin, pitch-perfect acidity, a sense of cohesion and harmony that is outstanding. There is not a hair out of place on this barrel sample and it will doubtless evolve into one of the best wines this state has produced since the 14th century, when Bertrand de Goth was planting its first vines. This comes highly recommended - a Pape-Clément that will reward those who can resist temptation and cellar this wine for 10+ years. Tasted on four separate occasions.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

Ian, that Pape Clement note makes it sound wonderful... and dare I say, a little soulless? That is a pet peeve of mine, the corporate take over of Bordeaux styles, so I am wary of wines made like that (no idea if that is actaully the case here).

This is my biggest issue with the changes at Pontet Canet (other than the price increases), the wines are flawless to the point of boredom, sleek and modern. If these improve with age, of course, I'll happily admit my skepticism was misplaced.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

I'm concerned that you may be right Patrick.
They're just not as "interesting" as in the 1980s.
I'll probably pick up 2-3 bottles of Pape Clement, I think it's $82ish at Zachy's.
That 2012 Clos Marsalette I had recently was perfect to the point of boring.
The 2012 Barde Haut struck me as seeking perfection as well, but that wine had a thrill to it… very seductive.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

I plan to try a Barde Haut 2012 soon. I was quite impressed with a bottle of the 05 last week, it had a much more serious structure than the charming Haut Bergey 05.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Blanquito wrote:Ian, that Pape Clement note makes it sound wonderful... and dare I say, a little soulless? That is a pet peeve of mine, the corporate take over of Bordeaux styles, so I am wary of wines made like that (no idea if that is actaully the case here).

This is my biggest issue with the changes at Pontet Canet (other than the price increases), the wines are flawless to the point of boredom, sleek and modern. If these improve with age, of course, I'll happily admit my skepticism was misplaced.
I hear you Patrick. I was very much inclined to that inclination. Rewind to late 2011 I think it was - maybe it was 2012 - and I went to an epic 2010 tasting. Bordeaux sales were in a bit of a slump and most of the producers (apart from the FGs and a few super-seconds) were out in force with their tens. I was staggered by the quality of these wines. Five wines really left an impression three of them St-Js: Branaire, Gruaud and Leoville Barton in ascending order of brilliance. I assumed these wines were in pre-shutdown mode. But the two that really stood out, again in ascending order, were La Conseillante and Pape Clement.

The Pape really was the star of the show. I remember tasting the 2001 aged four and it was an alcoholic mess, an over-extracted clumsy monster, an abomination tasted next to the lithe 1995. Now I knew that not all Magrez-era Papes are like that because the 2004 was a huge improvement on the 2001. But I was blown away by the 2010, not as one normally would with the power, but by the symmetry and perfection of the wine. It was truly a revelation. Soulless? That is a bit unfair. Clinical? Absolutely. But you can level exactly the same criticism of La Conseillante 2010, which circles back to Jim's point. The 1980s wines have more soul, they are fallible and not as Schwarzeneggerian as more modern wines from trophy vintages. By the way, that applies, more than any other, to La Conseillante.

Anyway so these five were must purchases, even if it involved selling some of the family silver. Soon after I purchased a case of PC10', none other than Robert Parker came out and awarded it 100 points, and the price immediately jumped by two thirds, which made me feel (without doubt to others, annoyingly) smug. NM's note on the 15 evoked memories of the ten. Jeff IIRC likes it a lot too. PC seems to have dialled down the extract and dialled up the finesse lately, which I applaud. Maybe Magrez might one day fulfil his dream of making Pape Clement a qualitative equal of Haut-Brion.

Re: Pontet Canet, I remember stepping off that bus at 1110 on Friday May 22, 2015 as a sceptic and boarding that bus four hours later as a very happy camper and a True Believer. I wish you were there Patrick.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Blanquito »

I put a lot of stock in your take on these wines, Ian. I know your palate and your experience, so I have no reason to doubt it (and you've tasted way more of these wines than I). In fact, it is a happy thought that these guys really do know what they are doing and can learn through experience where the sweet spot is in wine making. So I embrace it.

And yes, I really should have been there on the 2015 Bordeaux trip.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by AKR »

I spoke with a favored retailer today, to specifically go over their "process" for non standard sizes. What I was most concerned with -- since I don't think there is much economic advantage to buying futures (or perhaps more accurately, for the kinds of items I might consider, since I'm never going to be bidding on Le Pin) but there is value in being able to specify the sizes -- is how reliable that latter benefit really is.

I asked because I have had issues in the past where bottling requests, even with surcharges paid, didn't end up being honored. That has happened across vintages, across retailers. And for the avoidance of doubt, that is from legit places, nothing to do with Premier Cru.

Basically their advice was this (and I'm specifically not naming the retailer) -- keep an eye out for if the merchant offers large quantities of non standard sizes. They stated they can usually figure out some workaround if a 750ml gets 'lost' in the supply chain. It's much harder to find replacements when one wants something non standard, even if, in that case, that might have obviated the original intent. What I mean by that is that a customer might not have even bought futures if the end resolution is 4 x 750 mls + $60 instead of an (originally ordered) double mag. So yet again, one of the few reasons to buy EP -- custom sizes -- ends up being less valid the more I dig into it. I don't know how to handicap this risk across potential merchants -- am I really any better off going with an old guard, higher priced vendor?

It didn't really give me the warm and fuzzies, but I accept that its the truth/reality. It sounds reasonable.
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Interesting post Arv, and timely, at least for me. I've been very attracted to the Zachy's 2015 pricing. For example, I don't see how I reject Cantemerle 3L at $149. And there are numerous other Zachys 2015 offerings that are very competitive, in both larger and smaller formats. (got my three 2010 3L Brunellos this week.) Heck, I'm interested in the Zachy''s 2015 Cantemerle 6L. Notwithstanding your post, I've been VERY satisfied with the service I have received from Zachy's over the years, and expect to buy Pape, Malescot, Langoa, Cantemerle, Chasse, and numerous other wines from them. Should I reconsider?
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Nicklasss »

Still waiting the 2015 future offers here. I'll report what the prices look like. I already made my choice from AlexR comments. But it will all depend on the prices, but i guess that after buying one magnum from 2013, and nothing from 2014, i might buy a few 2015!

Nic
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by JimHow »

Hmm one mag of 2013…
La Lagune?
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by stefan »

Yuck!
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Re: 2015 vintage discussion

Post by Nicklasss »

Montrose. 2013 La Lagune was (hoping not to be irrespectful for stefan) worst than the 1993 Chateau Batailley...

I needed one 2013 for Béatrice, born that year, and i thought a magnum of Montrose could be ok to hold until 2031...

Nic
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