People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

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JimHow
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People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

Give me a break. What a disgrace.
Bordeaux is a disgrace, really, in the end, when all is said and done.
Take your fucking Rolex watches, Bordelais, and shove them up your tight, greedy, greasy asses.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by robertgoulet »

Total BS....ridiculous......the thought of these people.........so should we split a case?
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by AlexR »

Lifé ain't fair.
That's for sure!

And you can quote me on that.

AR
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

:mrgreen:
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by AKR »

I don't really understand who is buying all this, but someone surely must be.

To wit, an anecdote from another wine board -

some guy who doesn't seem to know or really be into Bordeaux buys a 3 pack of a brand new estate in the 15 bdx vintage, at $140/per.

That's like $450 for some wine no one has ever tasted in bottle, and there is no history of. (and then purchase asked people about it)

that's just astounding to me.

=====

I remember taking flyers on Gracia and Peby Faugeres for a solitary bottle when they were launched but at least in the latter case having some fondness for trusty Faugeres

of course both of those have long rocketed above my spending altitude.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Harry C. »

Biafra???!!! Jim, you are showing your age.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

Lol… Yes, I am.
I remember the nuns used to say that to us…
"Eat your fish sticks, there are children starving in Biafra…."
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by dstgolf »

Wow. I remember all of those cruel Biafrin jokes running around at the time.....back in high school. You've really dated yourself Jim. Many on this board I'm sure haven't got a clue what you are referring to as they were't even born....Nic!
Danny
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by AlexR »

Apparently, a lot of young people don''t know who Adoolph Hitler was.

Certainly, the trials and tribulations, the sacrifies and errors of the Vietnam war were forgotten after a couple of décades.

Alex R.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Jeff Leve »

JimHow wrote:Give me a break. What a disgrace.
Bordeaux is a disgrace, really, in the end, when all is said and done.
Take your fucking Rolex watches, Bordelais, and shove them up your tight, greedy, greasy asses.
Seriously? Don't you think most of the world thinks that way when you buy a $30, $40, $50 or $100 wine? What about all those mean watch companies, car companies, home builders, pricey restaurants, clothing manufactures, spirits companies, jewelery makers and that does not even take into consideration the man you think, or thought should be President with all his billions of dollars, expensive housing, hotels, ties and golf courses. The list goes on and on.

How much should Haut Brion charge for their wine?

Should they charge less than the market bears simply because you, or others think they should?

How much do you charge for legal services? Should your fee be regulated?

I'd like to see you share that sentiment with producers the next you are in Bordeaux!

This is not in support of Bordeaux, Haut Brion or wines, it is in support of a free, capitalistic society. The nice thing is, you are not forced to buy any wine or product you feel is over priced. it is a luxury item that is bought with disposable income.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

Jeff:
I have a very high success rate in jury trials, the highest in southern Maine, about 85% not guilty rate in over 120 jury trials, far better than any other lawyers in the area.
I charge $60 per hour for indigent work and $150 per hour for retained work.
My fees are a fraction of what other "high-priced" lawyers charge with success rates a fraction of my own.
I make a good living but I don't need to be obscenely rich. I drive a 2008 Corolla that has 226,000 miles on it.
I have a nice baby grand piano and a decent wine collection, a modest home with a little garden, and that's about it for material things.
I buy my suits at Macy's and occasionally Brooks Brothers if I can find them on sale in the $200 range.

I give money to my brothers to help them with their families.
I have money saved up for retirement.
i don't need to max out profits, I choose to help the poor and middle class primarily.
I find it very rewarding.
It's how I choose to live my life, others obviously have other priorities.
And you're right, it IS criminal that I drink $40 bottles of wine when a third of the world doesn't have flushing toilets.
But, I give a lot of my money to charity and help out my family so I allow myself some guilty pleasures drinking Barde-Haut ($26) and Haut Bergey ($22) and even the occasional 2010 Cantemerle ($49!) a couple nights a week.
Myself, I'm just a country lawyer from Maine.
I wonder how the first growths EVER got by when their wines were ONLY $200 per bottle….
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Jeff Leve »

JIm... You can and should charge as much or as little as you wish. That is how it works, regardless of how much you charge. To most people in the world, your well-priced rates are more than they can afford. So is your home. And that's all fine. It is a choice we all make.

Tell me, how much should Haut Brion charge for their wine?

Please let me know why they should charge less than the market bears and allow others in the supply chain to make the money?

And, will you be sharing these same thoughts the next time you are in Bordeaux?
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

I'm hardly the only person who has criticized the Bordelaise for their pricing Jeff.
Bob Parker and many others have criticized them on numerous occasions as well.
I don't know whether you've ever had the chance to discuss his concerns about pricing with him.
I'm no communist but capitalism is far from perfect as well.
I do not subscribe to the 80s mantra that "greed is good."
I think greed is one of the primary causes of the mess we are in, the disparity of wealth, etc.
I'm no economist, but I can't believe that the 30 richest people owning half of the world's wealth is a good thing.
Besides the whole greed issue, I wonder if it is in fact even good business practice in the long term.
And as you know, Parker and others have spoken about the long term flight from Bordeaux due to excessive pricing.
I remember a few years back a woman came in for a divorce. She had no money. Her husband had abandoned her and the 4 kids. He wasn't paying support. We took on her case basically pro bono, I think we charged her like $200. We did a good job for her. A year later she got hit by a car and broke her back. We ended up getting a fee of $100,000 out of the settlement with the other insurance company.
So helping the poor is not only good for society... Sometimes it is just good business as well.
I'm not saying everyone has to live in shacks.
I just wish there was more moderation out there, and less focus on material gain.
We are in a gilded age in Bordeaux pricing.
I don't know how much Haut Brion should charge, but they seemed to be doing alright -- and seemed to be making pretty decent wines -- when they were selling for ONLY $100 per bottle.
Greed is not always good.
Bernie for Veep!
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Jeff Leve »

JimHow wrote:I'm hardly the only person who has criticized the Bordelaise for their pricing Jeff.
Raising prices for futures is one thing. Saying they should charge less because people are starving in Biafra is another.

Writing "Bordeaux is a disgrace, really, in the end, when all is said and done. Take your fucking Rolex watches, Bordelais, and shove them up your tight, greedy, greasy asses." Is just plain silly to me. I have also written articles that spoke about wines being too expensive for EP, but that is just not the same thing.

I think greed is one of the primary causes of the mess we are in, the disparity of wealth, etc.

Selling any product for what the market bears is not greed, it's simply business You still have not answered any of the questions I have posed to you twice. Let's try again.

What should Haut Brion charge?

Why should they charge less than the market bears which only allows for middle men to make the money?

And as you know, Parker and others have spoken about the long term flight from Bordeaux due to excessive pricing

If wines are overpriced, the market will correct the situation sooner or later. However, most of the complaints on pricing has to do with futures offerings and not the in bottle price. The rest of the complaints come from people priced out of certain wines. I am in the same boat. There are wines I am priced out on as well. Such is life. Or, perhaps I missed the amendment in the constitution where it said I had a right to buy wines I liked for less than the market bears because I bought in the good old days.

I just wish there was more moderation out there, and less focus on material gain. I don't know how much Haut Brion should charge, but they seemed to be doing alright -- and seemed to be making pretty decent wines -- when they were selling for ONLY $100 per bottle.

But you miss the reality that the wines are going to sell for $500 anyway, so why should middle men get the profit instead of the producer?
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

Sure, you can include the middle men in my complaint about greed.
This $524 price for Haut Brion is EP, I wonder what Parker thinks about it
Does he still post over on his site? Has he offered any opinions about 2015 pricing?
As I said, I don't know what HB should be priced at but at $524 the estate -- and the middle men -- are choosing to extract every penny they can out of the market. For a capitalism-or-bust guy like you, there's nothing wrong with that.
That's okay, you have the right to that position, I don't hate you for it.
Of course, there was a big market for mortgage bundled securities back in 2007 as well.
Myself, I just think it's greed, a gilded time. We were all grossed out by what we saw at Lynch Bages last year.
The 1% can buy Haut Brion, the other 8 billion of us can't. I guess that's a good thing. <rolls eyes>
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Jeff Leve »

JimHow wrote:Sure, you can include the middle men in my complaint about greed. This $524 price for Haut Brion is EP, I wonder what Parker thinks about it
Again you do not answer any questions.

You also missed my point which was, sure, Haut Brion could sell their wine for $100 and make money to you. But you, or others are just going to sell it for what the market bears which is about $500 per bottle. Knowing that, why should they sell it for $100. Even if you root them on thinking they are great guys for selling their wine for $100, the market will jack the price up anyway, why shouldn't they make the money instead of middlemen?

We were all grossed out by what we saw at Lynch Bages last year.


I have no idea what you are talking about. But Lynch Bages is running a business. It is not a hobby. How many bottles of 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 did you buy?

The 1% can buy Haut Brion, the other 8 billion of us can't. I guess that's a good thing.

it is called reality, Everyone is not equal. Everyone does not have a right to buy Haut Brion simply because they want to. I have no issue with you thinking that way. But as I said before, I'd like to see you ask for a visit there and include a copy of your post, letting them know how you feel first? Or, because they can take their fucking Rolex watches and shove them up their tight, greedy, greasy asses, will you refuse to drink their wine and visit their estate? Will you donate all your 89 Lynch Bages in protest?

Keep in mind, everything is relative. To most of the world, paying more than $5 for a bottle of wine is insane and that money could be better spent.

OK, off my soap box. Have a great fathers day!
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Ryan DB »

No offense JimHow, but I have to agree with Jeff on this one.

We can blame Bordeaux for the 2015 prices all we want, but people are buying. In fact, Margaux (released at roughly the same price) sold out in most, if not all, of the U.S. on the first day. Mouton has also been selling very well.

In theory, I would love if the first growths decided to drop their prices. But let's say that they hypothetically dropped their prices to $200-250; their wines would then sell out immediately. Their wines would then be scarce and in high demand, and prices would shoot up on the secondary market. My guess is that the price would then be around $500 (if not more), if you take a peek at other comparable vintages. So as Jeff said, why shouldn't Haut-Brion try to maximize their profits, instead of passing those profits on to everyone else?

Bordeaux is not the only place where there has been serious increase in prices. Check out Napa Valley these days. And how about the cable bill? Mine has tripled in the past ten years. And what about concerts? I saw in band in 1993 for $20, whose tickets now sell for $250.

A final point: There are plenty of great deals this year in 2015 Bordeaux. Look no further than the Margaux appellation, and you'll find plenty of great sub-$50 wines. You should also take a look at Pessac-Léognan for some equally fair prices.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by AKR »

I think the futures biz should morph into something where the vintage/quality/ratings risk is truly shifted from the producer to the buyer. Instead of comitting to buying the 2015 vintage at $500 per, what about a model where the buyer has to commit to buying a bottle each of 2015-2020 for $200 per. That would get the risk sharing back idea back. Right now buying futures for a vintage which has already been 'rated in barrell' clearly doesn't offer enough risk transfer for the estate to be worth discounting, and as such, I don't think it makes sense for economically rational buyers to participate. (Not saying that all behave that way all the time)

The Bordelaise are quite rational in their way to respond to fickle buyers who pass on 2011-2014s by asking full freight on the one vintage there is some consumer interest in.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

No offense taken, Ryan, by either you or Jeff.
I don't expect everyone to be like Gandhi, MLK, Mother Teresa, and I.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

…And welcome to BWE! :D
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Nicklasss »

All I can say, is that it was fun when wine was something you bought for drinking, enjoying, sharing with other.

Today, it is a secured investment, something you buy when you're part of the riches, to impress or to say I have few cases of this and ou don't. It is no fun anymore.

I guess that Bordelais, that are owning the best terroirs, and produce the best Bordeaux, could do something like Domaine Romanée-Conti, that restrained and control who's buying the wines, as they want to sell their bottles to wine lovers that will drink-enjoy-share them.

The sad thing is that I, Nic, will NEVER sell a bottle of wine I bought. I want to drink-enjoy-share each and every bottle I own. I don't want to make money with wine, i don't want to run an internet site with my tasting notes and making a job or a profitable thing of it, i don't want to win blind tasting with wine, i don't want to say I have that bottle and tasted it a few time while you will never be able to try it. No, i want to drink-enjoy-share it with cool peoples, and make some new friends.

Nic
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

To me, and I realize this is an over-generalization, the Canadians and the northern Europeans have it down the best.
Neither of them are afraid to accumulate wealth.
There are many rich people, like Danny, in these countries. :)
But it just seems to me like these countries exercise moderation.
There's nothing wrong with getting rich.
But yet they find money for universal health care.
And they don't seem to have big housing and stock market fiascos of the magnitude we see here.
A person like Nic earns a good living, raises 3 children, lives comfortably, travels a little bit, drinks interesting wines that he finds at decent prices, but, okay, once in a while he splurges and buys a La Conseillante or a Grand Puy Lacoste at a high price.
Danny probably makes more money, he worked hard for it, enjoys life, but I don't get this crazy sense of over-the-top capitalism that I see in the U.S.
Heck, even the conservative prime minister they had in there before Trudeau's boy supported universal health care.
Likewise the Scandinavian countries… A ton of wealth there, but strong safety net, high education, high standard of living, low poverty, universal health care.
Are these places problem free? Of course not… Canada has high rates of poverty and alcoholism, northern Europe is seeing its own strains with immigration and other issues.
But there just seems to be capitalism in moderation -- democratic socialism, like what Bernie has been calling for -- that I would like to see more of in the US.
Even the country where Haut Brion is producing wines EP at $530 has 6 weeks of vacation….
As opposed to here in the US, where everybody is stressed out, in debt, blaming the Muslims for everything, producing the likes of Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.
Nothing wrong with getting rich-- hey, back in 2008 when I hit the jackpot and we got a $7.96 million verdict, I was more than happy to collect my contingent fee check that funded my retirement. So I can't preach, I can only live by example.
I have given hundreds of thousands of dollars to my family over the years to help them out, in the case of my parents to keep them out of poverty.
But I still think that people can have wealth and not be greedy.
I think Canada and the Scandinavian countries and France, UK, and Germany are prime examples of that.
The US, a lot less so. Too much disparity of wealth here.
Not totally crapping on the US here, some of my best friends are rich and are the most generous people I know, some of them here on BWE.
That's just one man's opinion, and I realize there's a certain amount of over-simplification and over-generalization going on here.
In the end, I think it is a bad idea for the first growths to charge $500-plus for their 2015 Eps, if for no other reason than that I think it will be bad for business in the long run.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

Sitting on the back deck, looking west, less than 24 hours from summer solstice, on the second longest day of the year....
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by dstgolf »

It's nice to see that I'm wealthy. Yes I've done well but far from what most would consider wealthy. In this country doctors work long hard hours and fees are low. I've got to read a lot of bone xrays at $6.40 and chests at $10.40 to make a living. Oh the politicians say we make too much money so cat scan fees were cut back 20% this last fall. Head and chest scans $64.95. We make everything up on volume and you do the math at the number of hours that we have to work to become WEALTHY!!. Our beloved gov't comes up with wait time strategies to decrease wait times for Ct and Mri increasing hospital budgets to add shifts and cut down wait lists. We work harder and longer to meet the needs 12-14hr days then they say radiologist incomes have gone up by 50% so we'll cut their fees by 20%. Make sense ....no way..but it sure opens my eyes that life is too short and I'd rather have more time off to regenerate by working 80% than kill myself in these crazy politician fantasies. Like you I'm happy to do better than average but I pick my spots and treat myself with nice Bordeaux , travel and golf. Sounds like more than most but for 20yrs working 70-80 hrs a weak it adds up. I'd trade places with most gov't workers,police,firemen and their indexed pensions. Most of my friends that went this route retired at 55y/o with full pension and started their second career. This double dipping in my mind is really criminal with all of the youth unemployment but that's an entire other rant. Unlike many friends and colleagues I'm very selective where my money is spent. I've saved well and made many sacrifices along the way. No way am I buying the first growths and agree with both arguments that Haut Brion can charge whatever they please. There are plenty of great wines out there and part of the fun is finding the next Pontet Canet,Cantemerle etc before they head to the stratosphere.

Nice to rant for a while ....it's therapeutic. Just needed to put a few misconceptions into perspective. :D
Danny
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

Yes we have a lot of government pension double dipping going on here as well.
They'll have to adress that soon, or our state and local governments will go bankrupt.
Heck, they are already.

Ah well. I guess I'll go watch my first basketball game of the year….
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Ryan DB »

Thanks for welcoming me JimHow. But I will say, I really hope politics don't get discussed too much on this site. I would much rather discuss wine!

That said, I don't know why people complain so much about what the first growths charge. If they are too expensive, just don't buy them. It's that simple. There are so many great Bordeaux wines that are affordable...Larrivet Haut-Brion, Malartic Lagravière, du Tertre, Marquis d'Alesme, Dauzac, Gloria, Phélan Ségur, etc etc. There are hundreds more that are sub-$50, even in the major appellations. And you still can get 2nd growths at pretty fair prices; for example, 2015 Léoville Barton is currently ~$72. How is that not fair, considering the current market?

So if we're talking about the first growth prices, what about Burgundy? Those wines are on another level. You can't buy a top Grand Cru without approaching $1000. But I did notice that Nicklasss mentioned that Bordeaux should be more like DRC. Respectfully, I'm not sure I understand the comparison. DRC has a much smaller production, so they can afford to be selective. And DRC is much more expensive than the first growths; take a look at some of the more recent auctions.

I appreciate what Nicklasss said about wine being all about sharing and enjoying with others. I couldn't agree more. Personally, when I buy first growths, I do so with the intention of drinking every bottle. Buying for investment would take all of the fun out of it. And of all of my wine friends who have bought 2015 futures, not one of them bought for the intention of investment. Who does that anyway? So I complete agree with you Nicklasss.

I'm also watching my first basketball game of the year!
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

We've been talking about politics and wine and many other things here for 16 years now, Ryan, we're too old to change.
We welcome you and hope you come to understand the BWE ethic.
what a game!
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by AlexR »

A fascinating thread!

Jim, I get the feeling that you are largely playing devil’s advocate (pun intended) here ;-).

I also find myself agreeing largely with one Jeff Leve. Strange isn’t it?
I might just quibble with his statement: "However, most of the complaints on pricing has to do with futures offerings and not the in bottle price”.

A discussion similar to this came up when François was active on the board. One of the less obvious aspects was the economics of buying very old wine that has increased greatly in value when a younger wine is just as good or better (albeit in a different way).

I think that several factors have contributed to the huge price increases in the great wines: higher standards of living, the rise of China, a search for new status symbols, the spread of information about cooking, fine food, and wine, etc.
Obviously, production costs have not exploded like sales prices have…

As has been pointed out, many people are presently being priced out of the Burgundy market too (once again, for *name* wines only). However, the Burgundians can justify this to some extent by pointing out small crops for several years in a row – the region got hit again in 2016 – which the Bordelais cannot.

I’m not the sort of person who worships The Market. Pure market considerations have caused untold grief and havoc. However, Lafite and Haut Brion have always been luxury products and I think we are really outside the political sphere here. Yes, let us give Americans the health care they deserve, even if it costs us all more, but the great wines of Bordeaux are not basic necessities and cannot fit into that issue.

Fortunately, there are still ways of buying Bordeaux intelligently even by people with a modest income. But the “glory days” of – relatively – affordable great growths are probably gone forever.

Alex R.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

I am indeed playing devil's advicate, with a little hyperbole thrown in.
I apologize for the swearing, I swear a lot less on here than I do in real life.
I wonder what Alfred Trsseron has for a profit margin, probably lower than most for all the overhead he had into his product.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Rudi Finkler »

Guys, when I was seventeen, I realized with horror that there is no social justice in this world... and unfortunately, never will be. So what to do? The only way to die in innocence would be to commit suicide... I decided to continue living my life and to do my best not to become a pig in this world. In retrospect, I must say it was a long and winding road, but mitigated by a lot of fine wines, especially fine Bordeaux of course... :-)
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by jal »

Looking at Jim's posts in a little more detail:

1. Biafra - doesn't exist anymore, and while there are humanitarian crisis in the world, it definitely is not hunger in Biafra. See Jim? One problem solved :D

2. Bordeaux First Growth Prices - As Jeff and Alex said, these are now luxury items. If we're going to rant about them, we can also rant about Hermes bags, Gucci shoes, Lalique vases and countless other pieces of crap, er I meant luxury. I don't know anyone who buys these anymore (I used to, glad I don't now). I don't care about the prices of any of these items, price them at $100,000 a piece for all I care.

3. Income inequality - well, that's a tough one. I agree with you, it's horrible. I blame the culture of greed as well as the "capitalism gone mad" of the last two decades. Funny, I think it started under Clinton - a democrat. I, however, disagree about the Bernie solution. While some of his ideas are valid - I feel most of them are too far reaching and may bring us more to Chavez and Maduro's Venezuela instead of France, Sweden and Holland. I would not take the chance though I agree something needs to be done and quickly.

4. Europe is paradise and so is Canada - Sorry, I disagree completely. I think it's better to be poor here than poor in France. Maybe I'm living in the past but it seems to me that there is a way out of poverty here; college through scholarships, hard work in a number of industries, mobility of the work force. I think Europe is more of a "once on welfare always on welfare" situation. Sure, it's better to be on welfare in Europe than in the USA, but the way out of welfare doesn't seem as obvious to me. I do think that it has gotten a lot tougher since the great recession in the US, but last I saw Europe is not exactly growing fast either.

Sorry about the rant.
Best

Jacques
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DavidG
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by DavidG »

I mostly agree with Jacques here.

I think the increases in income inequality started even before Clinton, with Reagan and trickle-down economics, and kept on accelerating through both Democratic and Republican administrations.

Jacques has stated much more calmly than I could my objections to Sanders. But it's not just that I think he would take us too far, in the mold of Venezuela. He appears to me to have a strong messiahanic streak, or perhaps a Trumpian inability to consider the outcomes of his ideals and pronouncements or to recognize that he could be fallible. A very dangerous attitude. My worry now is that Sanders might be so delusional as to run on a third-party ticket, making it possible for the horror that is Trump to actually end up in the White House.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by RDD »

I've had the 89 Haut Brion a number of times. And some bottles left.
What me worry?
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by AlexR »

Jacques,

You wrote: "I think it's better to be poor here than poor in France"

That got me to wondering. I can't honestly come up with a battery of statistcs, and I have lived outside the US for many years...
Furthermore, I've never been around poor people much.

All I know is that the health care system here for the poor is excellent.
But there are homeless people.

Poor is poor. Would a bum in the Streets of New York rather be a bum in Paris? Or vice versa?

The income gap is an important point.
It is huge in America and getting bigger all the time in France.

How to fix it? They are trying to push a vote through the French parliament to limit pay for CEOs (the threshold is very, very high) on the top end.
On the bottom end, the only answer is education.

Alex R.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by DavidG »

RDD wrote:I've had the 89 Haut Brion a number of times. And some bottles left.
What me worry?
Me too, and even though it cost <$100/btl as a future, >99.999% of the word's population would think I was crazy for paying that much. That's the kind of crazy I can live with.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by JimHow »

I see unbearable generational poverty every day in my criminal practice. After 31 years I'm not only representing the children of past clients, I'm now representing their grandchildren. People born addicted to crack before they're even out of the womb, low birth rates, enormous developmental delays starting in the earliest days of infancy and childhood, abused at home sexually, physically and emotionally, abusing drugs and alcohol by age ten. On the last Wednesday of each month I am the "lawyer of the day" for fine contempt day, I usually have to represent about 50 or more people who haven't been able to pay their fines for stealing shampoo from Walmart, or getting caught with a little weed, or being drunk and disorderly. So I meet with each one of them for a couple minutes each and then I have to make a pitch on their behalf to pay off their $400 or $700 or $1200 fines at a monthly rate, lest they face the risk of going to jail. If we get $4 out of them we are lucky. Most of them don't know where their next meal is coming from. Many of them are disabled. Most have had their food stamps cut off. They can't get jobs because they have criminal records. My brothers and I grew up in poverty but fortunately we had parents who cared for us. It's a lot tougher now. There are just no jobs, no resources for these people. There has been a criminalization of poverty. If you commit a crime and can pay your $300 bail, you get out of jail. If you can't come up with the money, you sit there, sometimes for weeks or even months. Mothers with three kids will have their welfare checks cut off if they can't get jobs.. So they try to scrounge up food at shelters, or stand on street corners, or sell drugs, or burglarize homes.

All the daily life of an old New England mill town, where the jobs went south and then off to Asia, never to return. Trump appeals to a lot of them.

I wonder if there will be a revolution in our lifetimes….
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by RDD »

I've seen it in the south.
Worked elbow to elbow with share croppers.
You need education and some useful purpose (i.e. job with some upward mobility).
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Nicklasss »

I never considered wine as a luxury item, as there is one basic difference: wine primary use is to be drink by wine lovers. Saying that a bottle of Haut Brion is like a painting of Picasso (a piece of art), is also wrong.

All that is very sad. But some are buying the 500 $ bottle anyway, so i don't blame the producer for these prices, and at the same time, people like label, so they like to live in a fantasy world, where 500 $ bottle of wine can't be bad.

I guess all Crus Classés are justified to up their price to 500 $, hey be SERIOUS like in California, <500 $ they're producing crow piss, wines that are not luxury items at all, that nobody rich and fake will like, but only they real poor wine lovers.

Nic
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by Tom In DC »

AlexR wrote:Would a bum in the Streets of New York rather be a bum in Paris? Or vice versa?
No doubt both - the grass is always greener!

Thanks to all for an interesting discussion.
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Re: People starving in Biafra, and '15 Haut Brion selling for $524.98

Post by jal »

Jim, that's heartbreaking. I don't know what to say.

Alex, a couple of points, but first, I agree with you about healthcare, much better in France, the rest of Europe and Israel than in the US.

As far as poverty, I think immigrants who came to France at the end of the colonization have found it very difficult to get integrated into French society, much harder than immigrants coming to the US. Moving to middle class seems almost impossible in France from what I've read.

I still believe that workers in the US have always been able to move to other areas in the country wherever jobs there become available - for instance, oil fracking in North Dakota (ignoring for a second the environmental impacts) created a sizeable job surge but only because Americans can easily relocate (probably for cultural reasons). I can't see a Greek or Italian jobs movement to Norway on such a scale possible in Europe.

About CEO pay, I heard Warren Buffett, someone I don't particularly admire, say a couple of years ago that once companies published the salaries of CEOs, they all wanted more and more. It would have been better to just keep it a secret. That said, I agree that some of these guys' pay is obscene. I bought the Picketty book about income inequality. I will read it over the summer.
Best

Jacques
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