St-Julien pecking order

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Comte Flaneur
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St-Julien pecking order

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Mine was, updated in 22 in brackets

1. Leoville-Lascases (Leoville Lascases)
2. Leoville-Barton (Ducru Beaucaillou)
3. Gruaud-Larose (Leoville Barton)
4. Ducru Beaucaillou (Gruaud Larose)
5. Beychevelle (Beychevelle)
6. Talbot (Talbot)
7. Branaire Ducru (Branaire Ducru)
8. Lagrange (Leoville Poyferre)
9. Langoa-Barton (Lagrange)
10. St-Pierre (Langoa Barton)
11. Gloria (St-Pierre)
12. Leoville-Poyferre (Gloria)

Yours?
Last edited by Comte Flaneur on Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Comte Flaneur »

I (used to think) think Leoville-Poyferre sucks.

Not in an absolute sense. But relative to the two other Leovilles.
Last edited by Comte Flaneur on Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jal
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by jal »

I am not going to contradict Ian, who tasted a lot more wines than I did. My pecking order is based on a much smaller experience (I only had Beychevelle and St Pierre a couple of times for instance). That said, I alwys enjoyed the wines I did drink in the following order:

1. Leoville-Lascases
2. Ducru Beaucaillou
3. Branaire Ducru
4. Lagrange
5. Leoville-Poyferre
6. Leoville-Barton
7. Gruaud Larose
8. Talbot
9. Gloria
10. Beychevelle
11. St-Pierre
Last edited by jal on Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Best

Jacques
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Rudi Finkler
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Rudi Finkler »

No particular order for the top of the tops, but I have a soft spot for Ducru Beaucaillou and Léoville Barton and would add Clos du Marquis and du Glana to the list.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Racer Chris »

Add Chateau Lalande after #10.
It doesn't appear to be widely distributed in the US, but is on the shelf at a local store.
I've been drinking '09s for a couple years now, and have had a couple of '10s as well.
Its a solid wine, although not the best QPR at the $30 price I paid.
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Blanquito
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Blanquito »

Ranking based on recent vintages? Say, since 2000? Or longer term?
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Comte Flaneur
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Any criteria you like Blanquito, but I was basing mine going back to the 1970s. Some of the more experienced hands like stefan might go back to the 1960s. Tim will go back to the 1920s and Francois to the 18th century.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Jeff Leve »

Things can certainly from vintage to vintage. And some estate have recently stepped up their game with new, state of the art cellars and changes in personal. But overall, at least for me, based on quality and style, this is how I see it for the past few years.

1. Ducru Beaucaillou
2. Leoville-Las Cases
3. Leoville Poyferre
4. Leoville Barton
5. Beychevelle
6. Branaire Ducru
7. St. Pierre
8: Clos du Marquis
9: Croix du Beaucailloux
8. Talbot
10. Gruaud Larose
11: Gloria
12 Langoa Barton
13: Lagrange
14: du Glana
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by stefan »

1. Ducru Beaucaillou
2. Leoville-Las Cases
3. Leoville Poyferre
4. Leoville Barton
5. Gruaud Larose
6. Branaire Ducru
7. Lagrange
8. Beychevelle
9. St. Pierre
10. Talbot
11. Gloria

This is for the period 1961-2004. Before '61 and after '04 my experience is too limited for me to rank these estates. I like them all, BTW.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AKR »

Jeff Leve wrote:Things can certainly from vintage to vintage. And some estate have recently stepped up their game with new, state of the art cellars and changes in personal. But overall, at least for me, based on quality and style, this is how I see it for the past few years.

1. Ducru Beaucaillou
2. Leoville-Las Cases
3. Leoville Poyferre
4. Leoville Barton
5. Beychevelle
6. Branaire Ducru
7. St. Pierre
8: Clos du Marquis
9: Croix du Beaucailloux
8. Talbot
10. Gruaud Larose
11: Gloria
12 Langoa Barton
13: Lagrange
14: du Glana
Very impressive showing for Croix du Beaucaillou.

I've not had recent vintages but consumed a lot of the 2000 early on.

It was lovely.

Had not realized how well recent years had been regarded though.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Comte Flaneur »

I thought it would be a cake walk for LLC, but it has been a strong showing for Ducru so far. I know Jeff also likes Ducru because there are a lot of pretty girls there when he visits!

If this was two years ago Ducru would be challenging for top spot in my pecking order. But I have had quite a few disappointing experiences in the last 18-24 months. In that I would not include our visit last year. But clearly Ducru has gone a bit bling, and you can detect that in the wines. When Bruno Borie came over here 15 months ago I was underwhelmed by some of his creations (post-2003) even if the 2009 was spectacular in a showy kind of way. I have also had a lot of duff older bottles, including 78s and 82s. Then you had that dodgy period in the late 80s. When I compared Ducru with Gruaud since the mid-late 70s, Gruaud to my surprise came out in top in my estimation, though clearly Ducru is better in the mid-late 90s.

Regarding second wines I didn't include them in my original lists to avoid undue complication. I mean LLC now has four wines including a second wine of Du Marquis, which I always thought was the second wine.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AKR »

Well I guess if there is a great second wine, which might be regarded as better than other sites A team, maybe they merit inclusion.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Antoine »

Difficult to rank them as I don't taste them year in year out.
Talbot: I had some great 86 but 2001 disappointing so not sure
Poyferre: great 2000 (no other)
LLC: great 89 (not yet opened the 2004s I have)
Ducru: great 1990 (I know there were questionnable bottles but the 2 I had were great)
Gruaud Larose: had some great from 80s
Branaire Ducru: the one I had most of (my sister was a fan serving it when I visited from the 80s) and I purchased a box of 2003 and 2005. Very reliable
Leoville Barton: still not opened a bottle (have a few but too young)
Clos du Marquis has always been satisfactory (90, 96...) and I served it at my 2nd wedding (with 4 other wines...)
Fief de lagrange was a favorite in my 20s when I was unwealthy but never been too excited by Lagrange
Had a few pleasant Beychevelle but not a grand vin
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Blanquito »

1980-1990
1. Leoville-Las Cases
2. Gruaud-Larose
3. Leoville-Poyferre
4. Talbot
5. Beychevelle
6. Leoville-Barton
7. Branaire Ducru
8. Lagrange
9. Gloria
10. St-Pierre
11. Langoa-Barton
12. Ducru Beaucaillou *TCA taint in cellar...

1991-2000
1. Leoville-Las Cases
2. Ducru Beaucaillou
3. Leoville-Poyferre
4. Leoville-Barton
5. Beychevelle
6. Branaire Ducru
7. Lagrange
8. Gloria
9. Langoa-Barton
10. Talbot
11. Gruaud-Larose
12. St-Pierre

I almost dropped LLC lower because like Latour for Jacques, it always seems to need more time. Poyferre remains high on my list in this period, as it didn't go all spoofy until 2003-present in my experience. Barton and Ducru came on strong in this decade. Beychevelle wasn't as good as in the 80's, but its wine are easy to underrate when young, and the 95, 96 and 00 are all developing nicely, edging out Branaire in 1991-2000. Obviously, the Cordier estates fell on lean times in this later decade. I don't drink young Bordeaux much, so the jury is out on post-2000 vintages, but I do think Barton has gone from strength to strength since then. Lagrange is a head scratcher, making a strong 1986, a brilliant 1990, a terrific 1996, and a worthy 2000, but everything else in between has been pretty nondescript or worse.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Nicklasss »

Again, with what I have sampled:

1. Léoville Las Cases
2. Gruaud Larose
3. Ducru Beaucaillou
4. Léoville Barton
5. Branaire Ducru
6. Talbot
7. Léoville Poyferré
8. Lagrange
9. Beychevelle
10. Saint-Pierre

I still need to taste Langoa and Gloria.

Nic
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by JimHow »

1. LLC… And then everyone else:

2. Ducru
3. Leoville Barton
4. Gruaud Larose
5. Leoville Poyferre (seems like there is a bizarre downward view about this astounding estate, the only two-time BWE Wine of the Year Winner.)
6. Langoa Barton
7. Talbot
8. Beychevelle
9. Gloria
10. Lagrange
11. Saint Pierre
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by stefan »

I agree with Ian's criticism of Ducru. But when Ducru is on, it is sublime. At its best, I prefer Ducru to every other Medoc except Lafite. That is why I put it #1 in my pecking order.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by JimHow »

I love Leoville Barton.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AKR »

To Blanquito's observation about Lagrange - I think that's fairly normal.

Most estates make can only make great wines when they have some cooperation from the vintage conditions.

The places like LLC, Latour etc. that pretty much never miss are really the exceptions and what makes them special.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AlexR »

1. Leoville-Lascases
2. Ducru Beaucaillou
3. Leoville-Barton
4. Léoville-Poyferré
5. Gruaud-Larose
6. Beychevelle
7. Branaire Ducru
8. Langoa-Barton
9. Lagrange
10. St-Pierre
11. Talbot
12. Gloria

Alex R.
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William P
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by William P »

1. Leoville-Las Cases
2. Ducru Beaucaillou
3. Leoville Barton
4. Leoville Poyferre
5. Gruaud Larose
6. Branaire Ducru
7. Lagrange
8. Beychevelle
9. St. Pierre
10. Talbot
11. Gloria
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Racer Chris »

Just for sh!ts and giggles I sorted the Cellartracker database for average score of all 2009 St Julien wines.
Here's how they rate at the top:
1) Leoville Las Cases - 95.9
2) Ducru-Beaucaillou - 95.7
3) Leoville Poyferre - 95.4
4) Leoville Barton - 93.7
5) St Pierre - 93.0
6) Gruaud Larose - 92.9
7) Branaire-Ducru - 92.6
8) Beychevelle - 91.8
9) Talbot - 91.7
10) Terre De Lion - 91.5
11) Lagrange - 91.4
12) Pavillion de Leoville Poyferre - 91.3
13) Clos du Marquis - 91.3
14) Lalande - 91.2
15 Croix du Beaucaillou - 91.0
16) Langoa Barton - 91.0
17) Lagrange Les Fiefs - 91.0
18) Gloria - 90.8
19) Moulin Riche - 90.4
20) La Reserve de Leoville Barton - 90.3

Other notables further down the list:
23) Lalande-Borie - 89.8
24) Le Petit Lion de Marquis de Las Cases - 89.6
25) Duluc de Branaire-Ducru - 89.5
28) Connétable de Talbot - 89.3
29) Larose de Gruaud - 89.2
30) Sarget de Gruaud Larose - 89.2
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Rudi Finkler »

Château Clos du Meunier is missing in the 'other notables' list. :-)
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Racer Chris »

Cellartracker has no data for that wine after 2000.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Blanquito »

AKR wrote:To Blanquito's observation about Lagrange - I think that's fairly normal.

Most estates make can only make great wines when they have some cooperation from the vintage conditions.

The places like LLC, Latour etc. that pretty much never miss are really the exceptions and what makes them special.
Yes, I guess that is the point, though Lagrange has underperformed the vintage since the 2000 it seems.

Is there a chateau that has been a reliable barometer of the vintage for decades? Making its best wines in great years, good wines in good ones, etc? Never under or overachieving? Actually, from 1986-2000, Lagrange was pretty close to doing this. Cantemerle might be another. Sociando perhaps, even if overachieving for the price?
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AKR
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AKR »

Almost never see Moulin Riche over here. It's ok in the vintages I've had.

Surprised Terrey Gros Cailloux didn't make an exhaustive Cellar Tracker search.

Also not seen much.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by greatbxfreak »

I'm very much with Alex' list, however in my list Beychevelle is ahead Gruaud Larose and I include Clos de Marquis in it. Funny thing is wine lovers forgetting the old vintages of Beychevelle and stable performance of this property since 2005.

1. Leoville-Lascases
2. Ducru Beaucaillou
3. Leoville-Barton
4. Léoville-Poyferré
5. Beychevelle
6. Gruaud Larose
7. Branaire Ducru
8. Langoa-Barton
9. Lagrange
10. St-Pierre
11. Talbot
12. Gloria
13. Clos de Marquis
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by JimHow »

Has anyone other than Parker been so negative about Lagrange in the past 16 years?
I recall drinking and enjoying the 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, and 2007, the latter two possibly being my favorites.
Parker seems to develop these hairs across his ass about certain St. Juliens like Gruaud Larose, Beychevelle, Lagrange, etc., when most others seems to continue to rank them highly.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AKR »

I still have various vintages of Lagrange left, but have a hard time getting excited about it now.

Maybe what we need to have is some big day at the next BWE event where everyone can have a white elephant game, and trade away their malcontent players.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by stefan »

2002 Lagrange was unimpressive last night. It was too thin and lacked interesting characteristics. It was blown away by the rich and very expressive 2000 Bellefont Belcier.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Blanquito »

2001-2004 Lagrange were disappointing when I tried them. I own some 05 but haven't tried it.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AmberL »

So my rankings are mostly based on 2005-2013 vintages since that tends to be the bulk of my Bordeaux tastings. I also tend to lean heavy on QPR (which is why Gloria has a soft spot).

Ducru Beaucaillou
Leoville Las Cases
Beychevelle
Gloria
Leoville Poyferre (love the better QPR of Barton but more often than not I'm ordering a Poyferre over a Barton from a restaurant wine list because I know it will be more approachable younger and will show better sitting in the decanter over the course of a dinner)
Leoville Barton
Gruaud Larose
Branaire Ducru
Langoa Barton
Talbot
St. Pierre (I will say at this years UGCB tasting of 2013s, I was pleasantly surprised with what they did with this troublesome vintage. Maybe a harbinger of better things to come?)
Lagrange (Beautiful estate, just none of the Suntory wines have really wowed me)


I have not tasted any Ch. du Glana so I'm excluding them
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AKR
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AKR »

This 2003 St Julien is still drinking well
This 2003 St Julien is still drinking well
This Branaire is doing yeoman's work, still slogging away at age 19. Dark, with little fading at the rims, medium bodied, with cedar/sandalwood/spices on the nose. It remains fruity and youthful on the palate. A smidge of tannin still.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by marcs »

Branaire did a great job in 2003. I had some bottles early on and it’s always been good.

I will be met with a chorus of disapproval for saying this, but I think Leoville Barton is overrated. I’ve never had a truly great bottle and have had quite a number of duds from them
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by AlexR »

Hi Ian,

I think I would put Ducru Beaucaillou ahead of Gruaud Larose.

Aren’t you being unfair to Léoville Poyferré?
In my opinion, their “stolid, unexciting” phase is long behind them.
Let’s share a bottle of 2009 the next time you come over.
It’s a humdinger .

I’d would also tend to place Branaire Ducru above Talbot.
You name only one non-classified growth, which is just about right because the percentage of land taken up by the crus classés in Saint Julien is overwhelming. In fact, there is no estate in Saint Julien whatsoever in the Cru Bourgeois classification.

All the best,
Alex
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Hi Alex
I agree I have been too down on Poyferre, too much negative love. Would love to try the 2009 with you.
We are doing a 2002 Bordeaux dinner tomorrow night despite the searing London heat where we are matching the Poyferre against Leoville Barton and Ducru Beaucaillou in one of the flights.

My pecking order now would be
1. LLC 2. Ducru B 3. Leoville Barton 4.Gruaud Larose 5. Beychevelle 6. Poyferre 7. Branaire 8. Talbot 9. Lagrange 10. Langoa 11. St-Pierre 12. Gloria
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Claudius2 »

Blanquito wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:21 pm 1980-1990
1. Leoville-Las Cases
2. Gruaud-Larose
3. Leoville-Poyferre
4. Talbot
5. Beychevelle
6. Leoville-Barton
7. Branaire Ducru
8. Lagrange
9. Gloria
10. St-Pierre
11. Langoa-Barton
12. Ducru Beaucaillou *TCA taint in cellar...

1991-2000
1. Leoville-Las Cases
2. Ducru Beaucaillou
3. Leoville-Poyferre
4. Leoville-Barton
5. Beychevelle
6. Branaire Ducru
7. Lagrange
8. Gloria
9. Langoa-Barton
10. Talbot
11. Gruaud-Larose
12. St-Pierre

I almost dropped LLC lower because like Latour for Jacques, it always seems to need more time. Poyferre remains high on my list in this period, as it didn't go all spoofy until 2003-present in my experience. Barton and Ducru came on strong in this decade. Beychevelle wasn't as good as in the 80's, but its wine are easy to underrate when young, and the 95, 96 and 00 are all developing nicely, edging out Branaire in 1991-2000. Obviously, the Cordier estates fell on lean times in this later decade. I don't drink young Bordeaux much, so the jury is out on post-2000 vintages, but I do think Barton has gone from strength to strength since then. Lagrange is a head scratcher, making a strong 1986, a brilliant 1990, a terrific 1996, and a worthy 2000, but everything else in between has been pretty nondescript or worse.
Blanquito
Can I explain what happened to DB during the period - which was only 1986 to 1990 from what I have learned (a long story in its own right).
A fungicide used in the chais - which in fact was supposed to avoid spoilage from fungal diseases - was found out to be the culprit.
At the time DB was a personal favourite and I bought cases of 88 and 90 and found that the 88 was worse - I'd say 2 in 3 were tainted and to varying degrees. The 1990 wasn't as bad with a lower rate but others may simply have found it the opposite way around. I also drank cases loads of 81, 82, 83 and 85 and none was evidently tainted - and all were pretty good I have to say. Only once tried the 86 which was slightly affected, and I never tried the 89 or 87 so can only assume that the failure rate was similar.

The fundamental issue they had was that nobody could work out the cause of the problem for some years, and by the time it was addressed, they wer then hit with 3-4 poor vintages in any event. The 1995 was one of the wines of the vintage and I still recall paying a relatively low price for it as its reputation had been damaged and the preceding vintages hardly helped in any event.

So now I don't buy it anymore as the price here is too high and I've moved on to ther wines which are at least relatively affordable.

Gruaud Larose was also a relative fav for some years and their temporary decline was the result of financial issues within the Cordier family (the sister of my best friend at school married into the family) and it changed hands three or four times between 1983 and 1997. The Taillan group bought it in 1997 and I think it is still the owner. However, constant changes didn't help though I do think that GL was still producing very good wine in the 80's, despite some reviewers not being impressed. I did buy a case of 2005 which I have not tried yet and prior to that 1995, which was good though hardly a star.

Having said that, my ranking is as fellow with a few question marks for wines I have not enough experience with.

Leoville LasCases
Ducru Beaucaillou
Gruaud Larose (accepting its lumpy periods and at least partly based on older wines)
Leoville Barton
Beychevelle
Brainaire Ducru
St Pierre (I think it is a better wine than others
Lagrange
Talbot
Langoa Barton
Gloria

I am not rating Leoville Poyferre.
I've drunk only a small number of vintages of this wine (the last was the 2004 which isn't a vintage I like much anyway) so I have no logical basis to rank it. I almost did the same with Gloria though the few recent attempts with this wine (lastly 2009) didn't impress me much so I'd leave it behind the Cru Classes.

I'd rate the first two - LLC and DB, as among the top dozen wines of the Medoc and I'd the rest could be pushed up or down based on my next experience as I think they are all good wines without any one wine starring all the time.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Claudius2 »

JimHow wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:33 pm Has anyone other than Parker been so negative about Lagrange in the past 16 years?
I recall drinking and enjoying the 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, and 2007, the latter two possibly being my favorites.
Parker seems to develop these hairs across his ass about certain St. Juliens like Gruaud Larose, Beychevelle, Lagrange, etc., when most others seems to continue to rank them highly.
Jim
I consumed a case of 2007 over the last 3-4 years which was an auction purchase and was a really nice wine in the context of the lighter 07 vintage. I rated it on CT and gave it 91 points partly as it was such a well made wine. Side by side against a better vintage it may not sing as loudly but i enjoyed every bottle. The 06 was richer and also a very nice wine - better than a few other 06's I've drunk. The 06 was a more old fashioned sort of St Julien and reminded me of Gruaud Larose.

I can't follow why Lagrange would be badly rated in the last few decades.
I's also say that 88 and 90 were stars and over-achieved.
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by Ognik »

All in all, from 1950 until now. No Second wines:

1. Ducru/ LLC
2. Gruaud Larose
3. Leoville Barton
4. Leoville Poyferre
5. Beychevelle
6. Lagrange
7. Branaire Ducru
8. Langoa Barton
9. Talbot
10. St. Pierre
11. Gloria
12. Du Glana

Gruaud had been unconsistend since 90s but still going strong.
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marcs
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Re: St-Julien pecking order

Post by marcs »

I attended a long vertical of Lagrange some years ago. There were some good wines in there (notably the 1990, 2000, and 2015), but nothing that had that real magic to it. Felt like a good wine for the price but a wine that does not really achieve greatness. Very noticeable that it was a rung below e.g. Pichon Lalande when I attended a vertical of that -- difference was night and day.
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