Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

'Sexy, just sexy' was the spontaneous comment of Albert at the first sip of Les Carmes Haut-Brion last night. How true! Is there a greater compliment?
The profound, subtle bouquet of Morello cherry, delicious, sweet dark berries, violets, and spices taken by itself is already an extraordinary pleasure. One could become addicted to it.
The back label of the bottle reveals that the grape variety is composed of 55% Merlot, 30% Cabernet Franc, and 15% Cabernet Sauvignon. And indeed, there is a fine Merlot smoothness and roundness on the palate, and an impressive range of flavours, from cherry, cassis and blueberry to liquorice, spices, herbs, minerals, forest floor and a hint of barnyard. The typical earthiness of the red wines from Graves is particularly evident on the endless finish.
The sweet oak is perfectly integrated - no wonder the casks are renewed only every two years-, and there is enough fresh acidity to balance the seductive fruit.

It is almost impossible to describe the unique, delicate sweetness of the Roc de Cambes, and the incredible precision of the aromas in this Côtes de Bourg wine. I rarely had such a breathtaking combination of purity and refinement. What a pleasure, and what a feeling!
I guess Adam and Eve must have felt similarly when they enjoyed the forbidden fruit in the paradise.
Blackcurrants, blueberries, raspberries, black cherries, and elderberries emerge, as well as licorice, iodine, leather, violets, spices, forest floor and a delicious hint of barnyard and dark chocolate, to name just a few of the flavours. The fine tannins are still present, but perfectly ripe and excellently integrated. There is no need for further cellaring. - A wine to die for.

Thanks for the great notes. You really loved these wines. Which is great as I have 4-5 bottles of the 00 Roc de Cambes. Sounds like I should open one soon.

I like the 00 RdC too, but finished up our last bottle I think last fall with MichaelP, Glenn et al.

My feel is that it should be consumed now. In its youth I thought it was even more incredible.

We had blind panels on/about release where it "won" versus a number of much exalted estates.

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Carmes Haut Brion is a very special estate.

Fans are probably going to be asked to pay much more for it going forward, so I suggest loading up on available vintages.

AKR wrote:I like the 00 RdC too, but finished up our last bottle I think last fall with MichaelP, Glenn et al.

My feel is that it should be consumed now. In its youth I thought it was even more incredible.

We had blind panels on/about release where it "won" versus a number of much exalted estates.

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Carmes Haut Brion is a very special estate.

Fans are probably going to be asked to pay much more for it going forward, so I suggest loading up on available vintages.

Arv,

Which vintages would you suggest?

12 and 14 (EP) are the lowest priced entry points. Then comes 08.

Those are places to start.

My hunch is that it will experience a Le Gay, or La Fleur Petrus "re-rating".

And what once used to be a $40-60 treat, will eventually be in the triple digits.

At least its easier to find stateside now.

A long time ago I self imported a case of the 82 from Europe. (all gone now)

I'm not sure that was truly worth the effort, but there was none to be had here.

Gentlemen, I must confess, it was impossible for me to open these two bottles without a feeling of nostalgia, and a bit melancholy.
Since 2005, 14+% alcohol is the inglorious standard at Château Roc de Cambes, unacceptable for me, and unfortunately, in 2010, the Furt family sold Les Carmes Haut-Brion. Monsieur Derenoncourt is now involved, and my Bordeaux shopping list is getting shorter and shorter...

Rudi Finkler,

I know Tertre Roteboeuf and Roc de Cambes like my own pocket.

2005 with 14 grades alcohol and so what? It's natural, no added sugar! It's perfectly integrated with fruit and tannin right now.

I hate people complaining about high alcohol in Bordeaux wines, but they drink without complaining alcohol bombs from Argentina, Chile and Australia, where adding sugar and watering vineyards are pretty much allowed. And fall asleep after two glasses of wine......

Izak, you must travel in different circles. The people I know who complain about high alcohol Bordeaux don't drink any wines from Argentina, Chile, and Australia.

Most Australian wines are verboten in my house, so I hardly ever drink them. And I complain about them as well.

Ditto.

Give me 12.5%.

stefan wrote:Izak, you must travel in different circles. The people I know who complain about high alcohol Bordeaux don't drink any wines from Argentina, Chile, and Australia.

Amen...I like my wines around 13% alc...

I currently have the following wine count as follows...
1. Australia - 1
2. Argentina - 0
3. Chile - 0
4. California - 4

In the past 10 years I drank....
1. Australia - 1
2. Argentina - 0
3. Chile - may be 1
4. California- may be 4 or 5 (primarily others pouring)

In the past 10 years I bought...
1. Australia - 2
2. Argentina - 0
3. Chile - may be 2
4. California- may be 7 or 8

I currently have the following wine count as follows...
1. Australia - 0
2. Argentina - 0
3. Chile - 0
4. California - 0

Hum, Red Bordeaux at 12.5 % alcohol, in vintages post 2000? We want names...

I guess this is the trick that distinguish good/great vinegrower/winemaker from the bad ones: when someone makes a Chateauneuf-du-Pape at 15.5 % or a Saint-Émilion at 14.5 % that doesn't taste alcohol at all (or no heat, or call it superbly well integrated).

I'm in the camp that when the alcohol level is 100 % from the grape sugar, and well mastered and integrated, it is a great wine at any alcohol level.

Nic

Those are fighting words, Nic!

But my BD is a "true connaisseur". The 1989 Chateau Lynch Bages is 12.5 % alcohol!

Nic

P.s. You met me many time and can understand i don't have a "fighter" shape at all!

Nicklasss wrote:Hum, Red Bordeaux at 12.5 % alcohol, in vintages post 2000? We want names...

I guess this is the trick that distinguish good/great vinegrower/winemaker from the bad ones: when someone makes a Chateauneuf-du-Pape at 15.5 % or a Saint-Émilion at 14.5 % that doesn't taste alcohol at all (or no heat, or call it superbly well integrated).

I'm in the camp that when the alcohol level is 100 % from the grape sugar, and well mastered and integrated, it is a great wine at any alcohol level.

Nic

I agree that a good winemaker can mask the high alcohol with other elements of wine. But the thing is, I am not sure if you can 'integrate' alcohol well over in the long term...when the wine is young, with enough fruit, you can mask it. But how would high alcohol wines fare when the fruit fades in the long term? For aged bordeaux, I think lower alcohol levels in 12 to 14 levels might serve better for aging.

With increased alc levels post 2000, it would be interesting to see how they would fare when aged beyond say 30 years...

I'm still skeptical about that 15.2% La Mission 2015.

Vintage port age very very well. I know, Port are different from red Bordeaux, but a 15.2 % natural alcohol in "balanced" 2015 Chateau La Mission Haut-Brion is probably ok for 30 years aging... I won't buy any but i'll be candidate to try it and comfirm if 15.2 % was a good choice or not, if anyone would like to share some with me in 2045.

Can someone share a true experience let say woth a high alcohol 1995 drank lately?

Nic

Generally speaking, IMO wine is more complex than port in terms of nuances. For high alc wine, I think those nuances might become the casualties. It would be interesting to see how 15.2 LaMish would taste in 2045. I would also be interested to know how a mid eighties Bordeaux with say 14.5% or more alc is faring well right now. Are there any such high alc level eighties Bordeaux? May be veteran BWErs can chime in...

Can someone share a true experience let say woth a high alcohol 1995 drank lately?

You mean like my 13.5% 995 Petrus?
Back when they used to make REAL Bordeaux?

Are there any such high alc level eighties Bordeaux? May be veteran BWErs can chime in...

The answer is no. From either bank.
Oh, and right, the 1980s were the golden decade of Bordeaux.
Hmmm. What a coincidence.
Low alcohol levels. Golden decade.
Totally unrelated, I'm sure. <rolls eyes>

I would not consider the 1995 Petrus, at 13.5 %, a high alcohol red Bordeaux. I was more talking about a 14.5 or 15 % alcohol 1995 red Bordeaux, if that exist.

But for those who really want 12.5 % alcohol red Bordeaux, I found on the Internet that the 2000 and 2005 Chateau Croizet Bages are 12.5 % alcohol. Go ahead guys, buy some... Live your passion to the best!

2000 or 2005 Fifth Growth Croizet Bages at 12.5 % is probably what is the most similar to the 12.5 % 1989 Fifth Growth Lynch Bages...

Nic

Um, hello, there are NO 14.5% 1995 Bordeauxs.
That's because in the1980s, and even into the mid-nineties, there was common sense and restraint.
And then a young lawyer from Baltimore came along.
And the markets went crazy, and the Asians got rich….

I remember BillP and I had a 70 l'Evangile some while ago which clocked in at 10.9% abv.

Cannot recall seeing a dry red bdx with numbers that low.

It tasted fine (super high fill), but was on the extreme end of tertiary development.

I think I have one each of OZ and Arg wines, but a small stash of Northern Coast California wines.

They're local for me, and although the flavor is/can be different, there are plenty that are appealing.

Prices are nuts though.

greatbxfreak wrote:Rudi Finkler,

I know Tertre Roteboeuf and Roc de Cambes like my own pocket.

2005 with 14 grades alcohol and so what? It's natural, no added sugar! It's perfectly integrated with fruit and tannin right now.

I hate people complaining about high alcohol in Bordeaux wines, but they drink without complaining alcohol bombs from Argentina, Chile and Australia, where adding sugar and watering vineyards are pretty much allowed. And fall asleep after two glasses of wine......

Calm down, Itzak. I wouldn't even touch a 14+% wine from Argentina, Chile, or Australia with a barge pole.

The high alcohol levels significantly change the character of Bordeaux wines. Once in an interview, François Mitjavile said: 'The paradox we have to manage, is perfect ripeness without losing the freshness in the fruit.' - Sounds to me a bit like trying to square the circle...

In the old days I drank many Bordeaux from the '60s that were labelled 10.5-11.5 % alcohol. In the '80s 12 % is commonly found on the label. Bordeaux at 14%+ is a fairly recent phenomenon, and not one that pleases me.

High level of alcohol is natural due to more focus of ripeness, global warming, etc.

Phenolic ripeness is the main thing - skins and seeds getting perfectly ripe.

1947, 1959, 1975 had also high levels of alcohol.

15.2% alcohol in LMHB 2015 and so what?? Is it because of added sugar, no, it's natural. I retasted 2005 LMHB last September, also the one with high alcohol. Did I feel it? No! Has it integrated with fruit and tannin? Yes.

Francois Mitjavile makes one of the most rivetting wines in Bordeaux and his wine-making is without gimmicks like f.i. extensive extraction. Frankly, I can't taste alcohol difference in 2-3 grades between 2000 and 2005 in his wines. Try 2005 TR and you will be surprised.

So what if the alcohol comes from grape sugar or added sugar, Izak? The winemaker can control the alcohol content, and some have told me that they do.

Can you point to any 1975 Bordeaux that had 14+% alcohol, let alone 15+%?

There is no such thing as integration of alcohol. Alcohol is alcohol. Whatever the wine begins with a percentage of alcohol, it ends up with the same percentage after aging. The other elements like tannins and fruit are a different story. Over age, the tannins undergo chemical change and subside, and hence we call 'integrated'. For alcohol, I don't think we can say they are 'integrated'. Because we have more fruit, tannins and oak initially when the wine is made, we might not feel the alcohol initially, hense the term 'masked'. But overtime after aging, when the tannins mellow down and fruit fades, one should feel the alcohol more easily.

Yes, I also think the term 'masked' is very appropriate in this context. The temperature rise in the glass alone, is usually sufficient to reveal the heat of a well-masked alcohol. For me, red Bordeaux is all about elegance, finesse, balance, freshness, and digestibility. There is no room for Napa-esque caricatures, and moreover, I hate the impact higher alcohol levels than 13,5% have on me anyway.

Great notes Rudi. Loved the sounds of both which I've never had. Looked up what's available through LCBO and 2015 futures release of Les Carmes is $115cdn....not the value wine described by any means and not going there so what may have been value previously is in triple digit territory. I'll stick with a bargain Chateau Paloumey fo $25 and others!!! Have a cellar full of triple digit wines.

Ditto regarding thoughts on alcohol. I can't stand having a nice bottle of wine with my wife for dinner and having the alcohol hit me shortly there after. I don't care how integrated and balanced one says the alc content is you can't avoid the physical effects of getting drunk on these 17% Cali Zins and 14+% for Bordeaux is getting too hot for me.

As manny others I don't have a single bottle from Chile/Argentina/Australia and only 7 from USA. Don't enjoy the extremes of oak/fruit extraction/stewed notes/ heat etc.

stefan,

Where in my post did I write 1975 produced 14-15% alcohol wines? I know alcohol was high then. So even 12.0% would have been considered as high.

Chateau Vin,

I'm sorry but I don't agree at all with your explanation. Alcohol becomes weaker with time, hence so called "integration". Never heard of alcohol coming strongly forward when fruit and tannin became older (?)

rudi,

You can ask winemaker to dilute his must so it'll come down alcoholicly to 13.5%. Not sure he'll listen to you.

Zero Australian and California wines in my cellar.

greatbxfreak wrote:
Chateau Vin,

I'm sorry but I don't agree at all with your explanation. Alcohol becomes weaker with time, hence so called "integration". Never heard of alcohol coming strongly forward when fruit and tannin became older (?)

We can agree to disagree...But alcohol getting integrated in wine over a period of time is a myth. 'Integration' is a misnomer. The better word is 'masking' or 'perception'. It does not become weaker over time and that's why it is labeled as ABV or alcohol by volume. In fact, theoretically speaking, it might increase as the volume of wine in bottle decreases with aging...

Alcohol 'perception' is pronounced or not depending on the age of bottle, but the alcohol level remains the same....

From the info on the Net, seem like 1947 Chateau Cheval Blanc is 14.4 % alcohol, and the 1961 Chateau Latour à Pomerol between 14.5 and 15 %. Both were very atypical even in their respective warm vintage.

Nic