Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

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Comte Flaneur
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Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Last night ten of us met to taste some mature St-Julien over dinner near Waterloo Bridge.

Sharpeners:

Carbonnieux Blanc 2005

This is 70% Sauvignon Blanc, 30 % semillon was a dreary limpid wine. There is nothing wrong with it but it is on a slow boat to China and I was hoping for better from what I regard as a reliable producer. 86

Taittinger contes de champagne 1994

An unexpected pleasure thrown in by Alino. It really was a treat. Quite evolved with rich brioche and buttery notes. 92

Flight one:

Leoville Las Cases 1978

Carpet, and unmistakably LLC. Exhilarating earthy, soily, mineral notes, as the vines do a deep dive into the layers of whatever lies below, allied to a languid cool fruitedness, overlaid with an austere note but with an underlying lushness and elegant layered complexity. At 38 years of age this is moving up through the gears. My, and the group's, wine of the night by a comfortable margin. 96

Clos du Marquis 1982

These days the estate will tell you that this is not a second wine but a wine in its own right. Made on the west side of the D2 further away from the river today, it now has its own second wine. Back in 1982 it really was a second wine, and this is holding up remarkably well. Probably something to do with the GV being immortal. This wine was marked by a peppery gravelly note, some beefiness and a richness on the palate. It was drying out ever so slightly. 90

Ducru Beaucaillou 1982

This wine remains an enigma. It has considerable bottle variability including a disturbingly high proportion of faulty bottles. Thankfully this one was not flawed. But it remains a painfully shy wine, which is difficult to coax. On the palate it has great substance, density and class but the whole package remains somewhat cocooned. It is rich and poised, but unlike many other 1982s it does not thrill. 92

Flight two

Talbot 1983

Glorious entry with roasted chestnuts, hints of autumn bonfire and leafy notes. On the palate it is beautifully resolved in an understated way. This is classic Englishman's luncheon claret, which would find fewer admirers across the pond. After a while the mid-palate became a bit loose knit and diffuse. A lovely wine but drink these up over the next 1-2 years. 90

Talbot 1985

A similarly glorious entry with the accent a little more on minerally notes, but with the same Guy Fawkes aura. The mid-palate was a little tauter, with a nice tension holding it together, and providing scope for this wine to continue drinking well for another five or more years. Some on the table complained about a slight greenness. I didn't find that problematic but you couldn't accuse this of being over-ripe. 91

Talbot 1986

It was really useful to compare these side by side, and in my book the 1986 was at a higher plane. This is also well resolved now but has plenty of years left. It has more power and density than the other two Talbots and a smoother more velvety palate with a wonderful cool fruitedness which exudes class, allied to a much longer and glorious finish. My second favourite wine. 95

Gruaud-Larose 1985

A beautifully resolved Gruaud, with more power and complexity that the 1983 and 1985 Talbots, and so much going on with mineral notes, meatiness, spiciness and other nuances. It is a wine in the perfect place. It doesn't taste old, nor would it benefit from extended cellaring. This was the middle of this estate's best ever period (1982-88). But it could not match the lush power and density of either the Talbot 1986 nor the LLC 1978. My third favourite wine. 94

Flight three

Langoa Barton 1996

It came across as quite merlot-y on the nose and had attractive cool fruit and a mellow well resolved palate, even if it does taste notably younger than the first two flights. Pleasant though this is I have come to understand that there is quite a gulf between Langoa and Leoville-Bartons, which would be clear if they were side-by-side, but we didn't have any of the latter. The former tastes more forward but simpler too. The reason is in differences in the soil so that the Leoville vines have to burrow deeper, and the wine gains more complexity in the process. 90

Lagrange 1996

I was struck by how, to me at least, this seemed to be dominated by primary fruit, which was of impressive quality. Strange because this wine had been drinking well by nearly a decade. This is a vibrant exciting wine, and has more verve than the Langoa. 92

Ducru Beaucaillou1996

Another enigmatic wine from Ducru. It too was difficult to coax, and the wine appears to be in an awkward phase of its evolution. It is still in its adolescence. But it has an abundance of raw materials to come together into a great wine, an abundance of fruit, power and density, it is one for future decades and requires great patience. 93

Les Fiefs De Lagrange 1996

Most pleasant, it clearly has more merlot in the blend, and was a tad warm for my liking. 89
Last edited by Comte Flaneur on Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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AKR
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Re: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by AKR »

Thanks I'm looking forward to retrying the 96 Langoa sometime this fall.
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Re: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by johnz »

Thanks for the good TNs. I purchased more than a few 1996 Lagrange (St. Julien), but have not found it as pleasant as your note indicates, at least not yet. I last tried it about 18 months ago and it still began a bit weedy, green and angular, with drying tannins. Primary yes. I let it sit for a day and on day 2 it was a bit more together with wintergreen/cedar bouquet. It seemed too young for me, but your note gives me hope.

--Gary Rust
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stefan
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Re: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by stefan »

Sounds like a wonderful themed dinner, Ian.

I was surprised that you did not expect much from the Taittinger Comtes. While it is not among my favorite luxury Champagnes, I have always found it quite good.

Good '78s are sublime IMO. Do you find good bottles of '78 Ducru to be as good as the LLC '78 you drank?
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Re: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Rusty - the 1996 Lagrange is a much discussed wine on this forum. I have had mixed but mainly good, some very good, experiences with it, but every bottle seems to be different to the lasts one. Another enigmatic wine I guess.

Stefan - au contraire I love Tatty Comtes, have never been disappointed. My pleasant surprise was because it was not listed and was generously provided by one of the participants. It made up for the dreariness of the Carbonnieux.

I have never had a bottle of 78 Ducru as good as that bottle of 78 LLC last night. The Lascases was a last minute substitution because someone else who was going to bring 86 Gruaud dropped out at late notice. In hindsight I'm glad they did, but I was initially disappointed about missing out on the 86 Gruaud, another wine that rarely disappoints.
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Re: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Racer Chris »

'86 Talbot is still the best aged Bordeaux I've had. (although I hope to change that soon)

The 2014 Carbonnieux Blanc I had last Saturday with grilled swordfish was excellent.
With a bit higher percent on the Sauv. Blanc than the '05, there was little evidence of the Semillon on the palate.
Bright and crisp. A lot of green apple and lemon on the palate, with a nice lemony finish.
Very much like the (non Bordeaux) Sauvignon Blancs I prefer.
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AKR
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Re: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by AKR »

johnz wrote:Thanks for the good TNs. I purchased more than a few 1996 Lagrange (St. Julien), but have not found it as pleasant as your note indicates, at least not yet. I last tried it about 18 months ago and it still began a bit weedy, green and angular, with drying tannins. Primary yes. I let it sit for a day and on day 2 it was a bit more together with wintergreen/cedar bouquet. It seemed too young for me, but your note gives me hope.

--Gary Rust
I too have had mixed results from a case that I'm working through.
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stefan
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Re: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by stefan »

Ah, I misunderstood what you meant about being surprised.

Great bottles of '78 Ducru are ethereal, so maybe you underrated the '78 LLC? Although, come to think of it, your 96 is 99+ from some people...
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Re: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Blanquito »

Ah, whither the 96 Lagrange? My most recent experience mirrored Gary's -- lean and weedy on day 1, deeper and richer on Day 2 -- which made me resolve to leave my remaining bottle alone a bit longer. It's odd because the wine doesn't appear closed or tannic, but it seems to be in a awkward stage for some bottles.

I've had some other 96s should like this in the last 2-3 years, not tight but muted, as well.
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Talking of exuberant ratings I thought this was amusing, when Bob was thrown down the gauntlet by Fred. Bob was under a lot of pressure to deliver a QUALITATIVE tasting note like none other, so he introduced the word 'skyscraper' into his narrative.

Latour 2010 £4950 per 6 pack IB
"One of the perfect wines of the vintage, Frederic Engerer challenged me when I tasted the 2010 Latour at the estate, asking, 'If you rate the 2009 one hundred, then how can this not be higher?' Well, the scoring system stops at 100, (and has for 34 years,) and will continue for as long as I continue to write about wine. Nevertheless, this blend of 90.5% Cabernet Sauvignon, 9.5% Merlot, and .5% Petit Verdot hit 14.4% natural alcohol and represents a tiny 36% of their entire production. The pH is about 3.6, which is normal compared to the 3.8 pH of the 2009, that wine being slightly lower in alcohol, hence the combination that makes it more flamboyant and accessible. The 2010 is a liquid skyscraper in the mouth, building layers upon layers of extravagant, if not over-the-top richness with its hints of subtle charcoal, truffle, blackberry, cassis, espresso and notes of toast and graphite. Full-bodied, with wonderfully sweet tannin, it is a mind-boggling, prodigious achievement that should hit its prime in about 15 years, and last for 50 to 100" Robert Parker 100 pts
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jal
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by jal »

Great tasting Ian, well done!!

I had the 1978 Ducru a few times, it never wowed me the way other 1978s such as Palmer, Lafite, Latour (ok, unfair comparison), Pichon Lalande, and yes LLC have.

I like the liquid skyscraper :-)

86 Talbot is legendary, I think I drank it with Arv, Emil, David Glasser, and Jim in NYC back in the early days of BWE. We may also have had the 83 Talbot that evening but I can't remember exactly, I wish we still had the posts from the old forum, sigh... Anyway, all those 80s Cordier wines were delicious with their mushroomy Cordier funk.
Best

Jacques
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by JonathanP »

The 86 Talbot is indeed legendary. We kept a box, together with a box of the 82, in the UK for when we visited and drank one or two of each pretty well every year throughout the 2000s. They both were superb at the beginning and only got better. I can only imagine what they would be like now - sadly we finished both boxes a number of years ago. This was my introduction to what a good Talbot was capable of, but then, when living in Korea, Talbot was one of the few decent Bordeaux wines widely available in Seoul (they presumably had a deal with one of the Korean distributors) and became my go-to when nothing else on the restaurant list appealed. Many bottles of 01, 02, 03and 04 were consumed over three years and I must say it seemed pretty consistent, even in so-called poorer years. A wonderful wine.
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Blanquito
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Blanquito »

jal wrote: I wish we still had the posts from the old forum, sigh...
All of it is online, it just needs someone with the computer/programming skills to collate it and make it searchable. I asked my brother to do this, but he's too busy. We did check what's online though, and it looks like the entire contents of the old board are saved and available in a raw form.
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Blanquito
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Blanquito »

I've had some otherworldly bottles of the 86 Talbot, like Winona's bottle in DC this past Spring, and some less impressive ones that seemed much softer and diffuse. Even the soft bottles are still outstanding, but at the top of its game like in DC, the 86 Talbot is a 95+ wine.

I've had some terrific bottles of the 83 Talbot, but it has been a few years. I still look for it at auction, though I am sure it doesn't have too much longer. Here's my most recent note from May 2014:
1983 Château Talbot -- Smokey, cedary, zesty, loamy, compote bouquet, yet another classic '83 Bordeaux. With air, notes of mint appear, this oldie has such a terrific bouquet. The palate is lighter-bodied, bright, silky smooth, with flavors of iron, wood, dried red currants. This bottle seems on the precipice of the downslope (the color is browning at the rim), but still lovely and ethereal. Further into the bottle, the depth of fruit really improves, rendering a more complete wine. I love the combination of iron-esque tannins in an elegant, light-bodied wine. Wonderful. 93-94 pts.
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AKR
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by AKR »

That 86 Talbot is something else. I think it was actually better than Gruaud that year.

I finished up the last of the 83 and 85's maybe in the last 5 years or so.

For my tastes they were on the downhill side and personally I'd not wait more.

Didn't know I'd had them still, they had gotten misplaced in all the moves over the last few years for me.

Sadly that works the other way sometimes too.

I was looking around this weekend for something I thought I had at home and could not find it.

Then went to the offsite, mostly to drop off stuff, and took a cursory look for my object of affection.

No luck.
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Blanquito
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Blanquito »

AKR wrote:That 86 Talbot is something else. I think it was actually better than Gruaud that year.
I've come to this view as well in his last 5-6 years. I used to prefer the Gruaud up through 2008.
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Nicklasss »

Very nice tasting and report Comte. And Saint-Julien being my favorite AOC, you make me happy.

Two Chateau Léoville Las Cases that are amazing for their vintages, are the 1978 and 1998. But i guess that the estate is my favorite because all good-excellent-great wines from 1978 to now...

Talbot and Gruaud Larose from the 80's are still fabulous. The 1986 Talbot is great.

I liked all the 1996 Lagrange I had, and while i don't have any left, my bro have still some.

I had one of those stellar 1978 Ducru Beaucaillou and it was something! I had the 1996 once and thought it was excellent but still young. But i guess that is the estate that you never know what to expect when you open a bottle. I had good 1975, 1983, 1990, and ordinary 1982, 1986 and 2001. Go figure why?

Nic
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Blanquito
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Blanquito »

Drinking an 83 Talbot tonight.
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Re: Waterloo Sunset: Mature St-Julien tasting dinner

Post by Blanquito »

Ok, the 83 Talbot last night was very good... but definitely drying up some since my last throw with it 2 years ago. Last night's bottle looked perfect- perfect fill a half inch into the neck, as near perfect a cork as you can find on a 33 year old wine, etc. So assuming it was treated as well as it looked, even pristine bottles of this apparently need consumption... The aromatics were still very nice, filled with scents of black tea, earth and cedar, and something ineffably Bordeaux. The palate was still fairly stern with hard but manageable and well integrated, tea-like tannins. The fruit was largely gone, but with red meat and some lower pours in the bottle, the richness improved a notch. I enjoyed this and the bottle was emptied quite effortlessly, so in my book this is better than a luncheon claret (at least at my luncheons), and it went to 91pts on the famed PHM 100pt-scale.
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