The number of châteaux in Bordeaux?

[AlexR]

11,074 to be precise, the Fédération des Vins de Bordeaux has just announced.

Time for some of you out there who drink only great growths to get out and make an effort.
And me too!

Best regards,
Alex R.

[Rudi Finkler]

Thanks for the interesting information, Alex. I always thought there were only about 8,000 châteaux...

[rjsussex]

Goodness! thanks Alex - do they say how many of those make red only and so they break them down by appellation?

Richard

[AlexR]

Sorry, don't have the breakdown.

Over half of all Bordeaux comes from the Bx. and Bx. Supérieur appellations, so I assume they also account for the lion's share of estates.

Alex

[Nicklasss]

Funny but when you think about it, I probably taste only a 100 Chateaux (maybe a 150). This is about 1 %. I'm sure the best deal are in the 99 % left...

Nic

[SteveH]

Life is too short to drink bad wine. Maybe I have become too particular in my late fifties, but I really like that top 1%.

[Comte Flaneur]

What you need to do Alex is discover the next Le Pin out of that other 99%, then you will have a license to print money

[AlexR]

Steve,

Agreed, the top 1% usually *are* the best.
Question is, isn't it tiresome to always stay in that category?
It is for that reason I would never go to just Michelin-starred restaurants, for instance, money aside.
Because other places might not have the glamor, but they often have something much more earthy and "real", and are sometimes every bit as enjoyable in another way.
Another question: is a name wine really worth 2O, 30, or even 40 times the price of a very good bottle?
These questions are not academic.
As for myself, I also like to go against the flow (of received wisdom and points-studded wines) and check out the variety there is, not be lead around by the nose...

I get more FUN out of a little-known wine or a fine wine from an off vintage that tickles my fancy than a wine that is boring in a way: expensive, good, just what it should be, like a well-dressed, cultivated wife with good manners, but who doesn't excite you any more...

Ian,

Nope, I don't claim to be able to pull a rival to Le Pin at 8 euros a bottle out of my hat...
That's not really my point.
I just think it's good to take wines for what they're worth, and try to adapt each one to the occasion (and food, of course).
There are times for great wines, and times when good "little" wines actually suit better.
Not forgetting that the latter don't take decades to come around...

In other words, it's a bit like food. I wouldn't want a gourmet meal twice a day, every day.
Such meals are an enormous pleasure. But so are simple, inexpensive meals made with good ingredients.
Have you never had an idyllic, memorable picnic lunch with very simple food and cheap wine?

I'll go one step further: to me, the connoisseur of Bordeaux wines is the person who has perspective, who has been lucky enough to have tasted Le Pin, or shared a tasting of 86 great growths such as we did, but who also knows and enjoys the less prestigious wines.

In summary, even if I were to win the National Lottery, I would not drink great growth claret every day.
Admittedly, I might have it more often , but by tasting *good* lesser wines, I believe I actually appreciate the great ones more.

Best regards,
Alex R.

[rjsussex]

Talking of which, my 'discovery' recently (which many of you probably know) is a terrific Bordeaux Superieur called Ch Seguin. The 04 was startlingly good and the 05 is terrific. About £5.50 in UK from a nice old-style merchant/importer.

Goodness knows why UK supermarkets can't get off thir asses to find such family-run propeties rather than cut volume deals with the big negotiants like Calvet and (admittedly ok) Dourthe for their lower end claret.

Richard

[AlexR]

Richard,

The reason for that is that estate wines cut both ways.

The Bordelais invented "château" wines.
They sell not only good wine, but an aura of mystery and identification with a world of luxury.

*However*, the flip side of all this is that châteaux only have a limited production.

That is why supermarkets deal with négociants and buy branded wines from them.

True, the Tescos and Safeways of this world can buy most of a petit châteaux's production.
But that still leaves a gaping hole.

Also, négociants are better equipped to meet the supermarkets' quality control standards.
I'm not talking here about quality per se.
I'm talking about things like ISO certification, additives, etc., which are beyond the means of
most small estates.

All the best,
Alex

[DavidG]

Steve,

Agreed, the top 1% usually *are* the best.
Question is, isn't it tiresome to always stay in that category?
It is for that reason I would never go to just Michelin-starred restaurants, for instance, money aside.
Because other places might not have the glamor, but they often have something much more earthy and "real", and are sometimes every bit as enjoyable in another way.
Another question: is a name wine really worth 2O, 30, or even 40 times the price of a very good bottle?
These questions are not academic.
As for myself, I also like to go against the flow (of received wisdom and points-studded wines) and check out the variety there is, not be lead around by the nose...

I get more FUN out of a little-known wine or a fine wine from an off vintage that tickles my fancy than a wine that is boring in a way: expensive, good, just what it should be, like a well-dressed, cultivated wife with good manners, but who doesn't excite you any more...

Alex R.

As to your first question, Alex, it is most definitely NOT tiresome to stay with the top 1%. There is quite a bit of variety among the top 1%, so long as you're talking about the top 1% of Bdx, Rhone, Germany, Italy, Germany, Cali, etc...

As to the second question, no, a name is not worth 20-40 times more, but enjoyment may be. It is all relative, and depends on one's willingness to spend. I had this discussion many years ago with friends who argued that no $40 bottle was worth 20 times more than a $2 bottle. Similar categories back then. To me, it wasn't so much the multiple that mattered, but the fact that I could afford the $40 bottle. Today, we are talking about $15 bottles vs $300 bottles (or more!). At these prices, and with a daughter in college, my perspective has changed. But I am OK with a non-linear relationship between price and incremental enjoyment, and accept that that relationship will vary from one person to another. It doesn't make anyone "right" or "wrong." If you've followed the Jefferson bottles discussion and read some of the material, it truly boggles the mind what some people would pay for a bottle of wine. Whether they are buying for drinking, historical significance, or bragging rights, who am I to say that it isn't "worth it" to them? One can argue that wine was made to be enjoyed, and using it for other purposes is a perversion, maybe in our eyes or those of the winemaker, but who is to say that we're "right" about that either?

Finally, while I too get a kick out of finding an inexpensive gem, as time goes by I find that I am less interested in kissing all the frogs to try to find the Prince.

[AlexR]

David,

You accept the reasoning of "the sky is the limit" for winebuying, and that this is non-linear and perhaps even illogical.

So be it.

Far be it from me to tell people how to spend their money!
It reminds me of François bristling when people criticized his buying old wines.
That's his business, and your wine buying is your business.

Be it books, cinema, wine, whatever, I am willing to be adventurious and risk a few bumps to find something original and relatively undiscovered.

This is not your thing, and that's fine .

All the best,
Alex

[DavidG]

I freely admit that it may not be logical, Alex. But who said passion should be logical?

There are times when I'm in the mood for exploration, and times when I'm more interested in sticking with what I know. I find more of the latter as I get older...

[Nicklasss]

Yes I want the best Bordeaux and I want to drink it. The thing is that when i think about it, how can you have a deception with a 15-20 $ 2005 Bordeaux? The great expensive growth = more pleasure? I'm not sure. High price for me mean high expectations, but sometimes, i drink my 80 $ bottle of Bordeaux, and try to convince myself ''it is special'', ''it is in a dumb phase'', ''it is less because of bad storage'', ''it is corked''... Just look SteveH's post on the 1999 Chateau Lafite Rothschild...

But at the same time, I will help the ones sticking to the 1 % Bordeaux. I am with Marie-Claude since 14 years and I don't need a try of any of the other 4.5 billions women on Earth (who cares about Angelina Jolie, Uma Thurman or the nice woman always smiling at you at work). So i can understand why you stick to a small sample .

Don't forget, I'm a scientist and scientists always have a weird vision of life...

Nic

[DavidG]

Scientists will also tell you that unless you are blinded, an $80 bottle of Pontet Canet will taste better than a $20 bottle from a minor property, even if there is Pontet Canet in the $20 bottle.

[PhilR]

About £5.50 in UK from a nice old-style merchant/importer.

Which one?

[AlexR]

David,

Your wrote:

"Scientists will also tell you that unless you are blinded, an $80 bottle of Pontet Canet will taste better than a $20 bottle from a minor property, even if there is Pontet Canet in the $20 bottle".

You're the scientist, but I believe in the scientific method i.e. to experiment and prove a hypothesis!

From a boring 5th growth, Pontet Canet has become a darling of the critics (not that I disagree).
But that does not *prove* that it, or another high-priced wine will *necessarily* be light years better than a wine a fraction of its price.

On the whole, whether we're talking cars, clothing, wine, women (no, scratch women), you often get what you pay for - up to a certain point.

But rooting around can result in some wonderful surprises.
And blind tasting - the "being blinded you yourself mentioned - OFTEN results in major suprises - and upsets.

All the best,
Alex

[stefan]

Alex, think that David was referring (perhaps obliquely) to controlled studies that show that people generally think a wine is better when they are told that it is expensive.

stefan

[JimHow]

I'll bet that $22 Clos Marsalette I had last night would do well in a blind tasting.

[DavidG]

Correct, Stefan. Alex, my last post was actually in support of your sentiment that cost does not prove the quality of a wine, and that knowing the cost of a wine (or its rating for that matter) can influence a taster's perceptions.

[Jay Winton]

The 05 Pichon-Bellevue continues to drink nicely especially with a little air.

[SteveH]

Alex, Your points are well stated. But, for those of us who aren't lucky enough to live in Bordeaux, speak the language and rub shoulders with the chateaux owners, we just don't have time to play the field. We are limited in our access to the other 99% of the Bordeaux wine population. When I do venture there, I find that 99% of the 99% are crap. That's a lot of headaches and bottles down the drain. Sorry, but I must be a wine snob.

[stefan]

Right, Steve. I do not have the luxury of tasting many less famous Bdx wines and then buying what is good. Many the times that I have bought a few lesser known ones to decide what to buy in larger quantities. By the time I get around to drinking the wines, the few good ones are unavailable and the rest end up in sauces or down the drain.

stefan

[rjsussex]

Reply to Phil: sorry, Phil, it was Rodney Fletcher but it's all gone...

R

[Chasse-Spleen]

I recently had a simple Bordeaux appellation wine that was quite tasty, Chateau La Gatte 2005. I've been meaning to retaste and post a note but figured I'd just add it in here. I'm starting to look at these wines more as a ton of them seem to have arrived at one of my more discount-oriented merchants and of course, I need to save money.

This wine has some cool fruits, mostly merlot in the blend. Some herbs perhaps and subtle spice that let you know that it's nominally a Bordeaux, although I'd call it modern in style. Good balance with soft tannins and very drinkable, even for a decided non-lover of cheap modern wines and internationally styled wines in general (unless of course it's one of those incredible, expensive Italian ones - yumm!!). I saw that they also make a special cuvee of 100% merlot V.V. that costs about $17 to this wines' $11. It's medium to full bodied and holds up very well on the second day. Def not a weedy, thin, acidic, generic Bordeaux of yore.

-Chasse

[Chasse-Spleen]

There is an interesting story behind this chateau. From what I can tell, it's in the Cotes de Bourg:

http://www.chateaulagatte.com/

[stefan]

It does look like an interesting winery, Chris. Apparently the Tradi you drank saw no oak.

stefan

[AlexR]

Château La Gatte is owned by a New Yorker.
A nice guy.
Also does bed and breakfast.

All the best,
Alex

[Chasse-Spleen]

I'm going to try one of those 2005 old vines 100% merlots. One of the things that interests me, aside from the thought of trying pure old vines merlot from the Cotes de Bourg in the vintage of the century, is that the folks that run this winery are very adept at marketing. I believe the NYC winemaker/husband guy has a degree in advertising (such a surprise!). My questions are, who is the target audience for a $17 "merlot" from the heart of Bordeaux and, what will it taste like? The latter question will be easier to answer and should give the answer to the first, in turn. Does Robert Mondavi have something to worry about here?

[Chasse-Spleen]

I just remembered that Robert Mondavi died recently - sorry about that, Bob. Let me rephrase that: Does Gallo, Woodbridge (a Gallo label?), Yellowtail, et al have something to worry about?

[stefan]

Not likely, Chris. Once Château La Gatte is discovered it will become a $25 wine.

The challenge for the Bordelais is to produce an identifiable product in large quantities and of consistent quality that appeals. At one time the appellation Bordeaux was enough to attract consumers, but those days are long gone.

stefan

[Chasse-Spleen]

I see your reasoning quite clearly, stefan. I still don't know why (other than that they don't really want to, which I guess is fine, or that the legal structure prohibits it somehow) the Bordelais don't have such a brand as you describe.