The fraud that is Grand Puy Lacoste.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:23 pm

IMO lots of 2009s pretty much sucked only 4 years after vintage, but they're turning out fine as they approach 10 yo. My drinking window for 2009s opens in 2019.
Contrary to Ian's experience with 2000, I bought a bottle in May this year which I brought to a wine dinner and it was excellent (93pts).

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:27 pm

BN, I posted that first message because I've seen just one note after another here on BWE that has expressed disappointment in GPL from one vintage after another, many of them supposedly great vintages. I mean, come on, Ian has now had multiple bad experiences with the 2000 GPL. Mine were even worse than his. 2000!!! We're not talking '84 or '92 here. Marcus uncorked a 2010 GPL at a DC convention about three years ago. We were sitting right next to each other, and spent some time drinking it. It was garbage! And I know it was young, blah, blah, blah. I've drunk many young wines. This was not "merely closed." It was just not good. I know Nicola likes the 2003 GPL but in my opinion something went wrong in the wine-making process of that wine, I found it basically undrinkable. Jal, who has an outstanding palate, found the 2009 undrinkable. The post-1996 GPLs have been soft and round, not at all the velvet hammer that is Pauillac. I liked the 1995 a lot, and I had a couple 1982 GPLs that I liked, but even more '82s that were disappointments. I just can't think of any other GPLs that have wowed me over the years, even from the golden decade of the 1980s, where you basically just had to pick the grapes to make not great but legendary wines. The 1985 I had with Nicola in Nashville a few years ago started off strong but soon cracked up. I mean, do you hear many people talk about the 1988 GPL like you hear them talk about other great Medocs, like Lynch, Lalande, Cos, etc., etc? The 2014 was pretty good -- indeed, I have five bottles sitting in my cellar -- but I truly think 2014 is an outstanding JimHow kind of vintage in the northern Medoc, and I think it should be even better in the context of that vintage. I recently bought a single bottle of 2015 GPL that I will drink in about 15 years. So, I just think GPL is way overrated. But, hey, to each his own, if you guys like this stuff, who am I to argue with you!

BordeauxNut · Post by **BordeauxNut** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:41 pm

For what it is worth -- I have a GPL story.

One of my good friends from an old tasting group bought a lot of 1994 GPL. On release, it was notably green and quite tannic. I remember pissing him off by telling him to stop bringing it as it was crap. I used the adjective 'watery' in describing it. Whenever it show up in blind tastings in its youth, I invariably panned it. Years later, I had it blind in another group and scored it in the mid-90s. And, I subsequently had several similar experiences with it. I remember that vividly because there was a wine that I became very familiar with -- one that I was convinced was shit -- that ultimately evolved into something else entirely. It needed time to fill out and it did.

I note from some of your postings that you like more modern styled BDX -- the 2015 Giscours, for example. You like BDX young, right out of the gate. I like the modern wines too. And we're fortunate because it is easier to find good BDX that drinks well in just a few years and really doesn't shut down as hard. That wasn't the case in 1994. But, GPL is not Giscours. At least until 2005 (the last vintage I bought), GPL is very traditional. It is (or was) not picked late and it's not slathered in high-char oak. It takes longer to come around and, in my experience, puts on weight in the bottle. The 1982, 1990, 1995, and 1996 in particular, will stand with just about any Pauillac from those vintages.

Another thought on GPL -- I always find that with LB BDX, there's a trade-off between aromatics and ripeness. I am no expert and don't claim this to be fact -- but:

- When wines are picked earlier, they retain more of the compounds that drive aromatic complexity. They may often carry more greenness to them. Wines like GPL, Pichon Lalande, Beychevelle all come to mind. These wines age on higher acidity and tannins and the greenness evolves with time in bottle. In all but the ripest of vintages, they tend to totally shut down (remember that... so few BDX wines seem to go into a shell anymore...)
- When the grapes are left to get really ripe and head toward over ripeness, aromatic complexity declines and needs to come more from barrique than than the wine itself.
- There is probably a reason why super ripe / high alcohol BDX is often accompanied by liberal use of high toast oak (Rolland)
- At the extremes, I'm not a fan of either approach

Someone with more experience than me can say whether there's any merit to this thinking. I do agree with you that GPL is no Pichon Lalande -- but in the past, they've been stylistically related. Also remember, it's about half the price. As for the 2000 GPL -- I haven't had it in several years. I'll open one next weekend and see what all the fuss is about. At this age, it has no excuse not to be ready to drink.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:11 pm

JimHow wrote:The post-1996 GPLs have been soft and round, not at all the velvet hammer that is Pauillac.

A nice, succinct summary of how I found the 2000 at a GPL vertical a few years ago.

I had high hopes for the 05 after a bottle on release. I haven’t lost faith in the 05 completely yet, but a bottle a few years later was less impressive. The 09 was too sweet and goopy on release. I didn’t like the 10 at the DC Convention either, but then, I have disliked or been unimpressed with the Napa-ness of many 2010 bordeaux.

The 78, 82, 90, 95 and 96 are all excellent to outstanding. After that, the jury is out for me.*

*To be fair, I feel the same way about many/most chateau from 2005-present. I have serious doubts where global warming, Robert Parker and high-priced consultants have taken claret in general. I’m down to a handful of chateau that I still am interesting in buying. Oh, there’s tons of good wine made in Bordeaux today (mostly all LB), but they’ve lost too many of the little things that once made them capable of transcendence

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:15 pm

BordeauxNut wrote:I always find that with LB BDX, there's a trade-off between aromatics and ripeness. I am no expert and don't claim this to be fact -- but:

- When wines are picked earlier, they retain more of the compounds that drive aromatic complexity. They may often carry more greenness to them. Wines like GPL, Pichon Lalande, Beychevelle all come to mind. These wines age on higher acidity and tannins and the greenness evolves with time in bottle. In all but the ripest of vintages, they tend to totally shut down (remember that... so few BDX wines seem to go into a shell anymore...)
- When the grapes are left to get really ripe and head toward over ripeness, aromatic complexity declines and needs to come more from barrique than than the wine itself.

I’ve heard this theory espoused by many very experienced winos (Stefan being one, I recall). I believe it to be generally true.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:47 pm

I thought the 78 GPL was one of the really fine surprises of that year, and it drank very well for many decades.

Very interesting comments by all.

It is good to have some spirited discussion here.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:42 pm

As I described earlier on the thread, I popped and poured the 2000 GPL about a year and a half ago. It had a tremendous nose right out of the bottle, really beautiful, but then it shut down hard after 15-20 minutes and never re-emerged. It definitely didn't feel like a soft wine, it felt like it needed decanting to be ready to drink. It gave the impression of still being rather young. There are a lot of 2000s basically still emerging from their shell in my experience.

Of course there is a tendency to ascribe disappointing bottles to being not aged enough...you can wait forever for a wine...but this one definitely did feel like it had tannins still to shed.

Some 2005s tasted a couple of years ago (about three years ago) definitely were shut down, I haven't tried them more recently.

jal · Post by **jal** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:59 am

I was never wowed by GPL, I tried many times, went to a vertical of GPL (1978-1990) where the wotn was the 1982 Lynch Bages ringer, I bought cases of 1996 and 2000 only to sell them later after tasting the wine. I really never liked the 1982 either, it tasted roasted and scorched to me.
Obviously, it's a matter of taste and I won't argue taste but I am done buying the wine and I don't care if they improved or changed, there are other wines I know I will like that I will spend money on.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:09 am

Like many other products, fine wine is all caught up with reputation, or brand image if you prefer.

Some wines are consistently overrated and others, of course, underrated.
The theory, which is mostly true in my opinion, is that a wine’s reputation – and frequently, therefore, its price – moves up and down according to its perceived quality. Call it “the invisible hand” .
Of course, there is always a lag here.
Smart buyers follow the stars on the rise. And, as well all know, there is no shortage of label drinkers, so the consistent underperformers will always find some sucker to lay out a bunch of money for them.
Consistently underrated wines include such estates as Léoville Barton and, yes, Grand Puy Lacoste. These are loved by the wine trade because they are not trendy darlings, but rather good, reliable, reasonably-priced wines.

The only vintage of GPL that non-plussed me was the 2003. On the whole, I tend to go along with “received wisdom”, i.e. prevailing reputation, that GPL is a very fine wine, and a good value. I’ve not had the bad experiences some have.
Now that Haut Batailley has been taken over by the Cazes family, I’ll be very interested to see where they will be going in the next decade.

Best regards,
Alex R.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:20 am

One thing for sure is that my lack of enthusiasm for GPL has nothing to do with how young I have drunk them. I have drunk young GPls and aged GPLs. I’ve drunk many young Medocs and can calibrate accordingly. A particularly bad stretch for GPL was around the turn of the century. Those 98s, 99s, 00s, 01s, 02s, 03s, 04s, etc., were god awful, flabby, soft, and thin. My experience with the GPLs post-2005 is more limited but the bottles I’ve had have been consistently very weak, even factoring in their youth.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:47 pm

Maybe this is a good time to rate the 5th growth Pauillacs. My rating, considering vintages from 1960 to 2004, is

Lynch-Bages (not even close; 2nd growth quality for much of the rating period)
D'Armailhac (the most consistent)
Pontet-Canet (would surely be #1 if rating from 2005 to the present)
Clerc-Milon (highs are higher than D'Armailhac, but not as consistent)
Grand-Puy-Lacoste (never thought it should be ranked higher than a 5th)
Haut-Batailley (like D'Armailhac, a consistent performer)
Batailley (I don't like aging wines at this level for 20 years, and this one needs time)
Grand-Puy-Ducasse (OK)
Haut-Bages-Liberal (OK)
Pédesclaux (nothing special, but sometimes attractively priced)
Lynch-Moussas (best thing about this wine is the unopened bottle of 1945 I have displayed that never will be opened)
Croizet-Bages (about as good as the preceding estate)

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:50 pm

That sounds about right.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:52 pm

stefan wrote:Maybe this is a good time to rate the 5th growth Pauillacs. My rating, considering vintages from 1960 to 2004, is

Lynch-Bages (not even close; 2nd growth quality for much of the rating period)
D'Armailhac (the most consistent)
Pontet-Canet (would surely be #1 if rating from 2005 to the present)
Clerc-Milon (highs are higher than D'Armailhac, but not as consistent)
Grand-Puy-Lacoste (never thought it should be ranked higher than a 5th)
Haut-Batailley (like D'Armailhac, a consistent performer)
Batailley (I don't like aging wines at this level for 20 years, and this one needs time)
Grand-Puy-Ducasse (OK)
Haut-Bages-Liberal (OK)
Pédesclaux (nothing special, but sometimes attractively priced)
Lynch-Moussas (best thing about this wine is the unopened bottle of 1945 I have displayed that never will be opened)
Croizet-Bages (about as good as the preceding estate)

I have never had a Clerc Milon or d'Armailhac anywhere even close to the quality level of many Grand Puy Lacoste vintages I have had.

I would agree that Lynch and Pontet are superior to Grand Puy Lacoste but the others aren't (although I'll admit I haven't tried many recent vintages of them, and some like Haut Batailley have been "updated"), I don't even bother to post trash on the likes of d'Armailhac or Clerc Milon because I don't have expectations. If I was inclined to I could have.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:51 pm

BN’s post reminded me of an excellent 1994 GPL I once enjoyed in a horizontal. It showed a clean pair of heels to its much more lauded Pontet Canet flight mate, which was clumsy by comparison. The 1994-96 period was the purple patch for this estate.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:02 pm

stefan wrote:Maybe this is a good time to rate the 5th growth Pauillacs. My rating, considering vintages from 1960 to 2004, is

Lynch-Bages (not even close; 2nd growth quality for much of the rating period)
D'Armailhac (the most consistent)
Pontet-Canet (would surely be #1 if rating from 2005 to the present)
Clerc-Milon (highs are higher than D'Armailhac, but not as consistent)
Grand-Puy-Lacoste (never thought it should be ranked higher than a 5th)
Haut-Batailley (like D'Armailhac, a consistent performer)
Batailley (I don't like aging wines at this level for 20 years, and this one needs time)
Grand-Puy-Ducasse (OK)
Haut-Bages-Liberal (OK)
Pédesclaux (nothing special, but sometimes attractively priced)
Lynch-Moussas (best thing about this wine is the unopened bottle of 1945 I have displayed that never will be opened)
Croizet-Bages (about as good as the preceding estate)

I've had some surprisingly good Lynch Moussas from 1996 and 2000, which were the only times I saw it on my local shelves.

I drank d'Armailhac a lot in the 90's and still have some to chew through.

It is indeed consistent, and a bit friendlier than names like Batailley.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:54 pm

1996 Lynch Moussas was not awful, which I guess made it surprisingly good for a Lynch Moussas.

I used to buy D'Armailhac almost every year, but somehow got away from that. Recently I bought a six pack of the 2000 at auction and am looking forward to its arrival in a week or so.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:20 pm

No I mean the 96 L-M was a real B+ kind of wine for me. True its been a decade since its graced my lips so no idea how it is today, or what other years since have been like.

Pauillac is an expensive playground for sure

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:07 pm

B+ for you is a high rating. I found it surprisingly good for a Lynch Moussas, but not up to e.g. Haut-Batailley standards.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:11 am

One of the first classified Bordeaux I ever bought, before I knew anything, was the 1987 Grand Puy Ducasse. It’s kinda a miracle I wasn’t put off wine for good. The Lynch Moussas in nearly any vintage is fine stuff next to that.

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:37 pm

I've had a couple of the 96 Lynch Moussas. I remember one being very tasty with a lemon tart, but think that is on the former site. This one sounds similar though:

http://www.bordeauxwineenthusiasts.com/ ... it=moussas

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:43 pm

Blanquito wrote:One of the first classified Bordeaux I ever bought, before I knew anything, was the 1987 Grand Puy Ducasse. It’s kinda a miracle I wasn’t put off wine for good. The Lynch Moussas in nearly any vintage is fine stuff next to that.

I had an utterly terrible 1997 G-P-D on release. It was so bad I still haven't forgotten it. Scared me off the estate for a long time, until maybe purchasing an experimental 2010 to lay down.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:13 pm

GPD is like not even supermarket level wine.
It belongs in the local convenience store with Boones Farm and Blue Nun.
At least GPL would be good with like pizza or Thai food if it were available in the $12-15 price range.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:42 pm

You must have a high level supermarket, Jim. JPD is better than most of the wine sold in supermarkets here, a lot of which come in boxes.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:59 pm

I haven’t had much experience with Grand Puy Ducasse. I recall the 2005 as being eh, kind of boring.

Ianjaig · Post by **Ianjaig** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:41 am

Hope I haven't (re)opened a can of worms by posting in this thread, but I went to a 2016 Bordeaux Tasting last night and was very impressed by the GPL.

The daughter of the estate, (Emeline Borie I believe) was behind the stand and was pleasant, informative and a great ambassador for their wines (something I cant say was true for many of the other estates unfortunately).

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:50 am

Ian:

Last year Nicolas and I were at MacArthur's in DC.
We were in the Bordeaux section.
We ran into the legendary Phil Bernstein, who I had spoken to on the phone a few times but had never met.
I asked him about GPL.
He said the following (paraphrasing):

For many years, GPL has underperformed its terroir.
Since the daughter has taken over, it has achieved the greatness of its terroir.

I have not tried the 2015 and 2016, but I like the 2014 and have five bottles resting in my cellar.
I have one bottle of the 2015. Based on your note, I'll buy one bottle of the 2016 in the next NH sale.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:56 am

I went to the UGC 2016 tasting and I bought only 4 chateaux after tasting through so many 2016s:
Langoa Barton
Branaire Ducru
Sociando Mallet and
GPL

All are outstanding values.

Ianjaig · Post by **Ianjaig** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:03 am

JimHow wrote:He said the following (paraphrasing):

For many years, GPL has underperformed its terroir.
Since the daughter has taken over, it has achieved the greatness of its terroir.

Hi Jim, thanks for the above, an interesting observation.

My only other recent experience of GPL was with a 2006 – but I opened that up way too early a few years ago, so will see how the next bottle stacks up in a year or two.
That said, and from what I can recall, there seemed to be a big lift in quality from the 06 to the 2016 I tried yesterday.
Cheers.

Ianjaig · Post by **Ianjaig** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:08 am

Blanquito wrote:I went to the UGC 2016 tasting and I bought only 4 chateaux after tasting through so many 2016s:
Langoa Barton
Branaire Ducru
Sociando Mallet and
GPL

All are outstanding values.

Yes, the Langoa Barton certainly offers great value.

My other standouts were Brane-Cantenac & Domaine De Chevalier, with the latter being more modern in style, buy hey, I liked it.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:55 pm

2016 GPD is very good and quite the value.

Jürgen Steinke · Post by **Jürgen Steinke** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:06 pm

Wow. GPL = Crap. What a statement.

I agree, that GPL got too expensive recently. I agree that GPL is made in a pretty traditional style. The wines need time to come together. Depending on the vintage. The 1996 is still too young from my cold active cellar. As is the 2000. Both are vintages with a strong structure (acid and tannins). And many complain about the brett aspect in almost any vintage of GPL.

BUT: A lot of Chateaux owner add a few cases of GPL to their private cellar in almost any vintage and I guess they are no fools. GPL gets a lot of love not only from leading critics but on CT too. And GPL from vintages 1982, 1985, 1990 and 1995 are certainly superior to the 5th Growths status. 1996, 2000, 2005 and later are too young to make a final statement. My 2 cents.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:20 pm

OrlandoRobert wrote:2016 GPD is very good and quite the value.

GPL or GPD? If GPD (Grand Puy Ducasse, perennially in the running for worst classified wine in bordeaux) that would be something!

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:21 pm

GPD

Ducasse

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:23 pm

I’m with Jurgen, I also like GPL very much.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:28 pm

Ok, now I’m intrigued, a good GPD, I’ll keep a look out for a bottle.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:30 pm

The 89 GPL is drinking well and remains a good value. After liking the bottle at our big 89 horizontal last year, I snagged a 3 pack for like $85/each.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:51 pm

I really enjoyed the '85 GPL I had recently. I've had 1985, 2000, 2010, and 2014 (2x) and enjoyed every one, making me a fan of this chateau.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:01 pm

I bought some 2014 Grand Puy Ducasse, and have enjoyed 3 of them so far. Nothing special, but well worth the $39 I paid.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:31 pm

I also bought a bunch of the 2014 GPL, which at $50 per early on, was awesome.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:46 pm

Blanquito wrote:Ok, now I’m intrigued, a good GPD, I’ll keep a look out for a bottle.

Interesting when you have a stalwart like Levenberg in accord with Leve on this wine:

https://www.cellartracker.com/m/wines/2658396

Keith recommended that I grab some and he was right.