The fraud that is Grand Puy Lacoste.

Ognik · Post by **Ognik** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:02 pm

Ridiculous thread, i am sorry to say, Jim.
As far as i can oversee numerous vintages since 1989, this chateau is an overperformer in its 5th cru classification. Some vintages may have been mediocre since, but there is much more to be positive about. Just my 2cts.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:18 pm

Nothing ridiculous about subjective opinions, Ognik.
Some here like it, some don’t.
Phil Bernstein, the Bordeaux purchaser at MacArthur’s in DC, said that GPL has been an underperforming wine for decades.
He said the exact same thing that I’ve been saying for years.
Jal and others here have the same opinion.
You and others disagree. That’s fine.
I don’t think your opinions are ridiculous, I enjoy your notes.
I personally think that, with the exception of 1995, GPL generally underperformed between 1982 and 2014.
I’ve had some good 1982s and some weak 1982s.
The 1989 that Patrick mentioned in Denver was pretty good.
The 2005, 2009 and 2010 we thought were disasters, actually flawed efforts.
I liked the 2014, so much so that I bought 6 more bottles.
I wondered whether that was just because I was such a fan of the 2014 vintage.
But also I think the daughter took over by then?
I have not had the ‘15 or ‘16, but by all accounts — including Phil Bernstein’s — they are successful vintages for GPL.
So maybe the word “fraud” is hyperbole for making my point, but the point nonetheless is that I think GPL has been a major underachiever for a terroir from that region. And others agree with me.
You can think that’s ridiculous but that doesn’t change my opinion.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:23 pm

The 2010 GPL really stank in DC '17.

For my mileage...
-GPL serially underperformed from 1983-1988, but the 82 and 78 are very good to excellent. WEAK
-From 1989-1996, I am a fan with the 1990 and 1995 being the highlights (but the 96 is growing on me). The 1990 might be my favorite GPL of all, it's a tour de force. STRONG
-From 1997-2004, GPL again underperformed. The 2000 GPL is pleasant, which as Jim says in a big whiff for a vintage like 2000. The 2001-03 GPL are some of the most boring classified growths I've had, the quintessence of luncheon claret. BAD
-From 2005-2010, I think the jury is still out. The 05 was impressive on release, but I really disliked the 09 and 10 (at least as youngsters). SHRUG
-Since 2010, I am getting the sense GPL is having another strong run. I've only had the 2016 from this era, and I was a fan. PROMISING

How would we grade this run (assuming you agree with my summary)? Clearly, they can make some killer claret from the time to time, but for a terrior in the heart of Pauillac, I buy Jim's "underachiever" premise. GUILTY!

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:15 pm

I think that’s a pretty fair assessment Patrick.
For me, GPL should have been performing much better from that terroir in some of those years.
Even the 89, which I thought was good, was dwarfed by other wines in the region like Lynch, which was epic.
I’m excited by the 14, and by what I’m hearing from those of you who have had the 16.
I gotta get my hands on a 16 and try it ITNOS.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:13 pm

I think I have GPL sussed.

It had a purple patch in 1994-96 and also in 2014-16.

Lots of ups and downs in between.

2014 and 2016 are the vintages to stock up on.

Particularly if you are 1. Under 50 and 2. think we will survive CV-19

Great value in that latter period.

But occasionally GPL loses its way.

Some vintages lack focus and precision.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:18 am

Around the same price or even a bit under, Lagrange have been better i guess. If i think well, i tried the 1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, 1996, 2003 and 2012. The ones i liked? 1982, 1985, 1989, 1990 and 1996.

I like GPL, but it is sure they made some wreck vintages like 2003 or 2012.

From that performance, i still have an interest in GPL, but it is in rate case in my first 3 choices.

Nic

Ognik · Post by **Ognik** » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:57 pm

Sorry guys but i am not in your team for some reasons.
In my point of view Gpl produced good up to excellent wines in vintages like 89,90,95,96,00,05,08,10,14 and 16. I'm not sure about 09 and 15 now but time will tell in terms of quality.
If you don't like the wines because of stylistic preference, i can live with that. But there's nothing wrong with these wines and there is no "fraud". Whatever that means.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:11 pm

I agree that ''fraud'' is a bit exagerated. But if I think of a wine that delivers the goods, from your listing Ognik, GPL is good in good vintages. Nothing wrong with that, like many other Chateaux. But what about 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2012? I guess the 3 Léovilles and Lagrange or some others made very good wines in those vintages. I guess GPL is ''kinda of a fraud'' in those vintages. It has the terroir to get through these vintages ok, and seem like they had trouble in these vintages. But I did not taste them all so trying to keep some discussion on that Chateau.

Nic

Jürgen Steinke · Post by **Jürgen Steinke** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:14 am

Virtually all wine writers or critics must be wrong in case of GPL because people like Jancis, Michel Bettane, Neal Martin and so forth rated GPL high in vintages 05, 09, 10, 15, 16. And again:the 1982, 1985, 1990, 1995, 1996, 2000 and 2005 GPL are all amongst the top Left Bank Bordeaux. If the critics do not count then look at cellar tracker. Most of the comments to the vintages I named are positiv. If this does not count as well I cannot help.

jal · Post by **jal** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:47 pm

I don't put much stock in what critics say and even less in cellartracker. All I can say is I don't like the wines up to 2010 (haven't had any younger vintages). I find it a fraud because to my palate it doesn't taste like Pauillac let alone like Bordeaux. The 2009 in my opinion was the most fraudulent; a horrible wine that smelled and tasted like New World syropy, manipulated plonk.

Now if it is performing better, I wouldn't know and frankly I have no good will left for this estate, they're going to have to find other people to buy their wines.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:55 pm

Jurgen:
I trust the palates of BWEers more than any critics, and certainly more than cellartracker.
One of the great things about BWE is the independence of thought on wines.
I'm glad you like GPL, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Jim

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:18 pm

jal wrote:The 2009 in my opinion was the most fraudulent; a horrible wine that smelled and tasted like New World syropy, manipulated plonk.

Based on my two goes with the 09, I completely agree with this. The best I could say about it was that it was totally Napa-fied.

I like some older vintages more than you of course, but the 09 was a “fraud” in my book.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:14 pm

JimHow wrote:Jurgen:
I trust the palates of BWEers more than any critics, and certainly more than cellartracker.
One of the great things about BWE is the independence of thought on wines.
I'm glad you like GPL, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Jim

I agree with this. The consensus of critics is close to meaningless to me. The big critics are jokes, enjoying caricatures of wines and scoring and commenting on them no differently than they do classic wines. I read Gilman - the man who rated Pavie a 50 - and do think Neal Martin does nicely in Bordeaux, but that’s it. The rest are just noise. Folks on this site and some on WB.com - especially guys with palates like mine a/k/a Blanquito - and profoundly gifted writers like Keith Levenberg - are much better for reliance on Bordeaux. And even here, there is a wide divergence - but yes, independence - of palate. There are a lot of wines here, some modern stuff like the BWE wine of the year, that I would never buy or drink. That makes things fun and interesting, but also keeps you on your toes, you just cannot buy something because others think it is great.

And back to my old riff: Classic never ever goes out of style.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:35 pm

Having not drunk much if any young GPL, I do not have an opinion on them. Up to 1996 I think GPL was a solid 5th growth Pauillac, though definitely behind D'Armailhac, Clerc-Milon, and of course Lynch-Bages. Pontet-Canet overtook GPL sometime in the 1990s and now seems to have surpassed Lynch-Bages for the "best of the 5th" title.

Jürgen Steinke · Post by **Jürgen Steinke** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:48 pm

Jim,

I am new here. And I have no clue how much experience you have or others. But you made a bold statement. GPL is fraud. I am sure you knew that this statement was a provocation. Was this your intension? To get attention? I know some critics personally and tasted with them. To state they are not independent is insulting. To say the least. You are free to express your opinion. But I would hope in a more civil way. Fraud is a harsh word. Way over the top in this case.

Ognik · Post by **Ognik** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:11 pm

...and that's the reason i call this thread "ridiculous".
I wonder if you guys have guts enough to name Mr Borie a fraud if you meet him personally. I wish you will think over.....cause it's about...... respect.
As your potus does'nt know what i mean, i hope you will.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:32 pm

I have not criticized GPL in this thread, but I can address the language. This is a post on a wine board, not an official document. Jim and others sometimes use strong language in order to make a point. If GPL makes a wine that does not taste like a Pauillac but more resembles an overblown Napa Cab or whatever, calling it a "fraud" is within the bounds of acceptability on BWE. When his language was questioned by one of you newbies, he explained

"So maybe the word “fraud” is hyperbole for making my point, but the point nonetheless is that I think GPL has been a major underachiever for a terroir from that region. And others agree with me."

As for experience, Jim created this board 20 years ago because of his love for Bordeaux. BTW, I have been drinking Bordeaux on a regular basis for over 50 years; Jacques for a few years less.

Jürgen Steinke · Post by **Jürgen Steinke** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:52 am

Stefan,

what do you mean when you say "resembles an overblown Napa Cap"? This is something I hear for the first time. The contrary is fact. GPL is very traditional winemaking. No Monsieur Rolland or something like that. Do you speak about the 09? I guess you are aware what kind of climate and vintage we are talking about. You could not produce a cool climate wine in this hot vintage. If you do not like the vintage, fine. There are others with less ripeness. Every vintner has to deal with the conditions mother nature is giving you.

Robert, btw. – you think Neal Martin is doing a good job as a critic? I think you are right. But then you should know that Neal is a big fan of GPL.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:06 pm

Welcome Jurgen, you seem to be a knowledgeable and passionate lover of the wines of Bordeaux.
My own theory about why BWE has been around for 20 years, and has been so successful, is that there is a spirit of goodwill here, an irreverence, that people don't take themselves too seriously, don't get as easily offended as on some of the other highbrow wine sites. I think this more easy going approach has served us well as people agree, disagree, and offer their input here. Yes, describing GPL as "fraud" is hyperbole. I'm sure the people there are very lovely and good people. And, they HAVE made some excellent wines in certain vintages. But it is just BWE words, yes, stirring the pot, generating discussion, it's not some legal I'm-going-to-sue-them, world-shaking accusation. I have no doubt that GPL will continue to thrive (I'm seeing their 2016 going in the $115 range up here in New England) notwithstanding a spirited discussion about the quality of its wines. I certainly try not to take myself too seriously, and I know most other longtimers here are of the same mindset. I think this overseriousness has overtaken the coronavirus thread.
In any event, I appreciate your passion and I hope we get to raise a glass of GPL or some other fine northern Medoc in the not too distant future.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:14 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:Stefan,

what do you mean when you say "resembles an overblown Napa Cap"? This is something I hear for the first time. The contrary is fact. GPL is very traditional winemaking. No Monsieur Rolland or something like that. Do you speak about the 09? I guess you are aware what kind of climate and vintage we are talking about. You could not produce a cool climate wine in this hot vintage. If you do not like the vintage, fine. There are others with less ripeness. Every vintner has to deal with the conditions mother nature is giving you.

Robert, btw. – you think Neal Martin is doing a good job as a critic? I think you are right. But then you should know that Neal is a big fan of GPL.

Jurgen -

If you scroll up maybe on the prior page, you will see that I posted in disagreement with Jim, even though I know his post was hyperbole. I like GPL quite a bit. I also recommended Grand Puy Ducasse. I actually prefer GPL to Ponet Canet, which I think is a modern glossy bore. By the way, I think 2014 GPL was one of the Best Buys of the vintage. I grabbed tons at $50 USD. Wow.

I also do not think it is overblow in any way, certainly not like Napa. And I barely buy any Napa for that very reason. I wonder if that comment comes from vintages like 2009 or 2003, which I generally avoid.

I love that you are posting here. Palates aside, you clearly have a very refined, broad Bordeaux palate. And this is the best site for Bordeaux, some truly knowledgable and passionate Bordeaux fans.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:28 pm

You'll note this thread was actually started back in May 2017, nearly three years ago, after Comte had a disappointment with the 2000 GPL.
It was the latest in a long string of disappointments with that estate.
If you look back at the notes here over 20 years, you will see many more negative comments about GPL than positive ones.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:57 pm

Jurgen -

Read my post three up from the one to which you refer and you will see that I have no idea whether recent GPL tastes like overblown Napa Cabs. I wrote "IF (emphasis added) GPL makes a wine that does not taste like a Pauillac but more resembles an overblown Napa Cab or whatever, calling it a "fraud" is within the bounds of acceptability on BWE."

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:49 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:Stefan,

what do you mean when you say "resembles an overblown Napa Cap"? This is something I hear for the first time. The contrary is fact. GPL is very traditional winemaking. No Monsieur Rolland or something like that. Do you speak about the 09? I guess you are aware what kind of climate and vintage we are talking about. You could not produce a cool climate wine in this hot vintage. If you do not like the vintage, fine. There are others with less ripeness. Every vintner has to deal with the conditions mother nature is giving you.

Robert, btw. – you think Neal Martin is doing a good job as a critic? I think you are right. But then you should know that Neal is a big fan of GPL.

Jurgen you are correct that Neal Martin is a fan of some vintages of GPL like for example the 1996. He is also on record for criticising certain GPL wines for lacking precision and focus, which in my opinion is spot on (see my earlier post). The 2009 tasted like a caricatured Parker Napa monster out of the gate. I have not tried it recently but my guess is that it would have straightened out a bit but there are far better wines in that vintage. Likewise the 2010, a big wine and not particularly focused when I tried it. The 2016 otoh is pure class, probably the best ever GPL. It can stand toe-to-toe with the Pichons and Lynch-Bages.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:57 pm

The main culprit for a Napafied GPL is/was the 09, which showed poorly for a number of us on release (at least).

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:58 pm

On a separate note, has anyone tried recent Grand Puy Ducasse's? I hear / read that things have improved there, but have not tasted any in many years.

jal · Post by **jal** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:25 am

Blanquito wrote:The main culprit for a Napafied GPL is/was the 09, which showed poorly for a number of us on release (at least).

I really disliked the 1982 as well, the other vintages just tasted blah

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:49 am

jal wrote:
Blanquito wrote:The main culprit for a Napafied GPL is/was the 09, which showed poorly for a number of us on release (at least).
I really disliked the 1982 as well, the other vintages just tasted blah

I remember vividly how much I loved that bottle of the 82 GPL in NYC in 2012, the same bottle which you wanted nothing to do with. Too roasted for your palette, I recall, like Starbucks beans.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:55 am

I liked the 1982 GPL each time I had it. But i also liked the 2016 Tour Saint-Christophe last January.

Oh well, we can't be perfect.

Nic

jal · Post by **jal** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:23 pm

Blanquito wrote:
jal wrote:
Blanquito wrote:The main culprit for a Napafied GPL is/was the 09, which showed poorly for a number of us on release (at least).
I really disliked the 1982 as well, the other vintages just tasted blah
I remember vividly how much I loved that bottle of the 82 GPL in NYC in 2012, the same bottle which you wanted nothing to do with. Too roasted for your palette, I recall, like Starbucks beans.

Right! That was a fun evening, except for the GPL, LOL.

Gerry M. · Post by **Gerry M.** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:34 pm

I just had the 82' last night and it was excellent.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:39 pm

I’ve had excellent ‘82 GPLs and not-so-excellent ‘82 GPLs.

Jürgen Steinke · Post by **Jürgen Steinke** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:44 pm

This is what Neal Martin wrote after he tasted 2009 in 2019:

Pauillac – This appellation is always given a head start by the First Growths, where, as already stated, Latour reigns supreme. Not many of us can afford those wines nowadays, but there are plenty of alternatives that represent better value – Grand Puy-Lacoste and Haut-Batailley from the Borie family and an excellent Duhart-Milon, for starters.

I guess he would not have mentioned GPL if he does not like it.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:01 pm

We had the 2009 GPL at a BWE convention in DC, we found it almost undrinkable.

Ognik · Post by **Ognik** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:07 pm

Dear Jürgen. Let it go. No sign of insight here how.
I'm glad to own two cases of Gpl 09, 10 each and lots of other vintages and i may think you like these wines like i do. I don't envy drinking them all these unripe 02 stuff. It's a hard job but someone's got to do it.

Newbies over and out.

Jürgen Steinke · Post by **Jürgen Steinke** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:14 pm

I was not aware on what kind of Island I landed here.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:20 pm

You guys cannot stand it that some long time Bordeaux drinkers (not I; I have not tasted these recent GPLs and so have no opinion) disagree with you?!?!?

jal · Post by **jal** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:27 pm

I really don't understand the problem here, you like it and I don't. You should be happy, I won't compete with you buying the stuff.

Maybe you think I'm denigrating your palate but I'm not, I'll happily admit it probably is my palate that is not sophisticated enough to understand the nuances of Grand Puy Lacoste if that makes you feel better.

Just please don't invite me to GPL vertical anytime soon.

Ianjaig · Post by **Ianjaig** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:58 pm

[quote Hope I haven't (re)opened a can of worms by posting in this thread, quote]

Unfortunately, it looks like I have done the above – apologies as that wasn’t my intent. It was simply to state that the 2016 impressed at a recent tasting.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:41 pm

Honestly Juergen and Ognik, I don’t know what you are getting so upset about.
I’m totally happy that you love GPL.
For me, with the exception of the outstanding 1995, it has not been my cup of tea.
And I’m not lying to you when I say that a number of us had the 2009 at a BWE convention and it drew a very negative reaction. I could lie to you and say, oh, we all loved it, we thought it was spectacular.
Having said all that, I’m looking forward to getting my hands on a 2016 to give it a try.
Unfortunately, at the $115 price range, it is now out of my league.
I was able to get the 2014 for $50 per bottle which, as I said above, I liked very much.
It seems to me — and I know you disagree, and I respect that — but it seems to be that GPL, like Phil Bernstein, one of the leading Bordeaux authorities here in the US said to me and Nic last year — is finally realizing the potential if its terroir, perhaps because of new management (?).

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:34 am

Having divergent opinion about some wines or producers or some vintages is part of the game. That makes us wine lovers and not critics or label drinkers. Nobodies right or wrong, only individual preferences. And don't forget, there is a time or a bottle for every wine.

Example: in 2002, in a dinner, some preferred the 1986 Léoville Barton (look in claudius2 recent post, that wine was exactly the same in 2002!) to the 1985 Grand-Puy Lacoste. That last wine was clearly the most ready complex integrated wine of the two. But i don't challenge the people that liked more the Barton, personnally i was clearly more in love with the GPL.

Nic