Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

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JimHow
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Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by JimHow »

Ian's notes on the 2016 vintage are awesome.
I haven't been this excited about a vintage since reading HWSRN's notes on the 1996 vintage.
The first question is: Has Bordeaux wine-making changed in the past three or four years since Robert Parker retired?
And secondly, when we see the quality being produced in vintages like 2012, 2014, 2015, and 2016 -- and, perhaps, more importantly, the lower alcohol style we are seeing in 2016 -- do you have concerns that perhaps the Parkerization of the past 20-30 years created a style that was in the end NOT the best expression of Bordeaux, not in the end the best that Bordeaux could be?
I'm not saying I know the answer, as I haven't tasted any 2015s or 2016s yet, just making my observations based on the notes of tasters whose palates I have trusted/related to over the years.
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JimHow
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by JimHow »

I say the answer to the question is:

YES.

We lost a whole god damned generation of great Bordeaux because of the "Robert Parker Phenomenon."

I say, the Robert Parker Drama.

Bordeaux has been around for a millennium. Robert Parker has been around for a blink of an eye.

I say, that we have been living under a tyranny the past 25+ years.

All this Parker BS....

One carnival barker took a century old wine region and took it from 12.5% to 15.4% in ONE generation.

Give me a break.

ROBERT PARKER RUINED A WHOLE GENERATION OF BORDEAUX WINES.

Thank goodness, after 30 years, he stopped posting his "profound" <rolls eyes> notes.

This was ALL a bunch of BS, I'm telling you guys!

But I don't know how many will believe it.

In any event, it appears we are, at last, praise the lord, FREE AT LAST!

With 2016...

Praise God Almighty, we are FREE AT LAST!

I wish Robert Parker all the good health in the world.

But thank goodness he is GONE, I say.

And may we pray that we are about to enter into an era of 2016-like, low alcohol vintages, for many years to come!

Goodbye, Robert Parker abberation...

Goodbye Hopefully forever!
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JimS
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by JimS »

Having not tasted any myself, but reading notes like what have been posted on here and other friends of mine in the UK whose palates I trust, I have to think that it likely has changed over the last few vintages. Take an estate like Pavie for instance - arguably in possession of one of best terroirs but I have found many vintages of theirs borderline undrinkable for my tastes (sorry 2005). Although I dislike what they did for pricing in 2016, a friend of mine said the difference in style was like night and day and that 2016 will likely be a new benchmark for them and a true turning of the page as far as style is concerned.

I've come to accept a while ago that there were likely a lot of missed opportunities by the chateaux. RMP's style works much better for Napa than it does for Bordeaux, but who can blame them for reacting rationally in favor of profit maximization and making wines with a stamp of approval by arguably the most influential palate in the world. That isn't to say I don't like a LOT of wines from the last 2-3 decades as there are many that I adore and own a bunch of, but I do think a lot of typicity was suppressed during this time, particularly on the Right Bank.

Having not tasted any 2015's or 2016's myself, take this for what it is....my $0.02. But, I do think Jim is on to something here...
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robert goulet
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by robert goulet »

so then Barde Haut will have its WOTY status revoked? ;) :P
Last edited by robert goulet on Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JimHow
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by JimHow »

a fair question, Bobby G.
I'm not saying BWE wasn't a victim of the tyranny.

I mean, come on.
2010 LMHB at 15.4%?
Seriously, that was the final straw for me.
when I saw that I said, ok, there's something wrong here....

15 point 4 percent?

Give me a break.

I don't care HOW "hidden" the alcohol is <rolls eyes>,

we were abused, I tell you. Abused for like 25-30 years.
This was all BS!

Robert Parker was a FRAUD!
It was a royal scam.

Bordeaux was around for a THOUSAND YEARS.

Since like before the Magna Carta. Thomas Jefferson, pre-phylloxera, yada, yada.

And then He comes around from like 1982-2012 A.D.

And in a THOUSAND YEARS, there is like NO deviation from 12.5%.
Then, in one short blink of a generation, alcohol levels increase like 20-plus percent.

But maybe it's global warming or something else?

Um, no... a mere FOUR years after he retires, alcohol levels are back to what they were during the past, um, millennium.

Imagine that.
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AKR
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by AKR »

There were estates who never made an effort to accommodate Parker's style/taste/schedule.

Examples would include Soutard, Batailley, Magdelaine. There are more - those are just top of mind from my own cellar.

Some like Belair and Magdelaine are dissolved as brands now.

It never seemed like the AFWE styled wines got much love on this board.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by RPCV »

It would be interesting to ask Anthony Barton this question. As a very candid wine maker, I doubt we would be surprised by his answers. On a personal note, I agree with this assessment. How many times I have been turned off by the over-everything that Bordeaux produced over a span of some 25 years or so. Then again, wine is a business responding to market conditions....lets not forget that.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by JimHow »

Cleaned up my language a little bit, was in court all day yesterday, it gets my testosterone going sometimes, I apologize.

I'm really curious if there is evidence that Bordeaux style has changed post-Parker, or if this is just anecdotal or coincidence.
I mean, it's not like we have a big sample of vintages since 2012 to make a statistically significant analysis.
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Comte Flaneur
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by Comte Flaneur »

Monsieur 'Ow...you talk in riddles kind sir. Your Delphic musings are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Stop beating around the bush and tell us what you REALLY think.

Neal Martin is candid in saying that styles have changed in the post-Parker era, as have some of the producers, including ones I asked on Wednesday. It is also worth noting that two estates which enacted the most discrete change in style to accommodate the Parker palate, are the two that have now made the most discrete changes back the other way. I am talking about Pavie and Pape Clement and the orders came right from the top - i.e., from Gerard Perse and Bernard Magrez. I have that on good authority. And as already noted at least twice their behaviour is a rational profit-maximising strategy.

As to whether we have suffered a lost generation of Bordeaux wines I have a lot of sympathy for that view but I don't believe, at the end of the day, that it is an accurate characterisation. Chateau Lafite 1998 is one of the most full-bodied and powerful Lafites ever made but it is still a great and phenomenal wine. Without Parker the 2005s would be less extracted, the 2009s less opulent and the 2010s less Schwarzeneggerian. But there are still perfect wines from each vintage: 2005 LMHB, 2009 Mouton and 2010 Chateau Margaux that none of us would pass up. And the really insidious Parker wines - the Pavie 2005s and Angelus 2010s - are really the exception rather than the rule.

I am with Jim: I wish Parker well, and hope his back heals up so he can function again, but I am glad to see the back of him. In the early part of his career he was mainly a force for good, he really shook things up and consumers benefitted from his advice. But since the turn of the century, his influence has been regrettable. My opinion really hardened after seeing his review of 2000 Cheval Blanc which he described as a 'no-brainier, a wine to kill for' as I lamented on this board at the time. Irresponsible reporting to get a sugar rush just like Donald Trump sending out a tweet at 330am, which causes the S&P to tank on the open. As far as I know Parker has never criticised a wine for being OTT.

Jim with the 2016s you can buy a shitload of them and start necking them in 2025.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by marcs »

I'm with Robert Goulet here -- anyone who regularly raves over Barde Haut has lost a lot of credibility in trashing Parker.

And without Parker do we know that the Bordelais would have had the external pressure to ramp up their quality at all? Even the off vintages are pretty great now.

With that said, the alcohol levels truly did get out of control. I am reluctant to invest too much in 2014, 15, 16 because of my age and limited finances, but I wish I had more 13% alcohol bottles aging in my cellar and am a little uncomfortable about the levels on my 05-09-10s.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by Nicklasss »

I can't believe that the wine producers of Bordeaux changed anything because of one man. Yes they changed things, but not because of one critic.

Personnally, i think it is more a matter of property changing hands, changing winemakers, changing vine grower, changing winemaking equipment, changing grape selection. When new people are coming in, they seem to not knowing well their new terroir and have a tendancy to push the lush side of their wine to make sure to have a seductive impact on consummers right away. It can stay like that for sometime but after a few/many years, they know better what they're working with and adjust everything accordingly to have a better classical wine. I think lots of Crus Classés saw many changes in between 1990 and 2010.

I guess the Chateaux who stay the same within many years, stay with the same family/owner, or same staff, so same philosophy.

Concerning the selection of the 2012 Chateau Barde-Haut as Bwe WOTY, even if not a perfect choice for many, I think it has all the Bwe criteria to be WOTY (price, availability, quality, character of it AOC,...), but with a slightly lush style. And don't get me wrong, I like hitting on Jim as much as you! But not this one!

Nic
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by DavidG »

You want to blame Parker? No way.

It's Obama's fault.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by robert goulet »

Comte Flaneur wrote: Neal Martin is candid in saying that styles have changed in the post-Parker era, as have some of the producers, including ones I asked on Wednesday. It is also worth noting that two estates which enacted the most discrete change in style to accommodate the Parker palate, are the two that have now made the most discrete changes back the other way. I am talking about Pavie and Pape Clement and the orders came right from the top - i.e., from Gerard Perse and Bernard Magrez. I have that on good authority. And as already noted at least twice their behaviour is a rational profit-maximising strategy.
Not sure I can agree with Neal on calling Pavie a 'discrete' change and I would add Leoville Poyferre into that conversation.

Jim 15.4% for 2010 LMHB????? Then you know that means it's 16%....wtf?? Yikes

Yes, its true, u can go into any local wine shop and see that the alcohol has crept up fairly dramatically on quite a few different labels over the last 30 years. Some say Parker, some say climate change, some say both......I say stop!!! The real eye opener for me was when I was drinking an $11 bordeaux about 4-5 years back...I was really taken back it, just an awesome little wine that screamed bordeaux...the alcohol level???? 12.5%, no compromise!!!
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William P
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by William P »

I know one winemaker of a well known super premium cab who privately confessed he read Parker and to paraphrase, he chased points. He felt most in the industry did. If it happened in Cali, I suspect it also happened in Bordeaux. In the marketplace, points mean $$$ and winemaking is an economic venture.

And thanks David G for the smile of the morning.

Bill
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by Gerry M. »

Exactly what span of vintages do people believe were subject to the "Parker" effect. He made his bones on 1982 but when did vintners really try to manipulate the product to appeal to him? Of the succeeding great vintages when did it kick In? 86? 89 or 90?

Stylistically I see his hand in 2003, 05, 09 and 10.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by AKR »

Gerry M. wrote:Exactly what span of vintages do people believe were subject to the "Parker" effect. He made his bones on 1982 but when did vintners really try to manipulate the product to appeal to him? Of the succeeding great vintages when did it kick In? 86? 89 or 90?

Stylistically I see his hand in 2003, 05, 09 and 10.
It seems to me that 2003 was just so freakishly hot that even though the wines -- big and gooey and unctuous -- might seem like they were cut to his pattern I think it's driven by the weather and what she gave to work with.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by Musigny 151 »

What an interesting question.

For me, there were two very distinct phases of the Parker era, with the change occurring in the late 1990s.

The first was positive. Pre Parker, there was very little information out there, much of it supplied by the British trade, with axes to grind and wine to sell. Parker was an independent voice, and almost singlehandedly brought more credibility to Bordeaux, ignited American demand, and brought serious dollars into the trade which was used to invest in new equipment, cleaner cellars and reduced yields. Huge generalizations of course, but basically true.

His influence was overall positive over the next decade or so, but things changed, and I think it's fair to say fell apart around 1998. A number of reasons for this.

1. Parker's palate changed. He never liked acidity, but around then, he seemed to crave low acid, palate punching punching wines. Winemaking became a lot less about terroir and more about formulaic winemaking.
2. Made easier because it got hotter.
3. Definition of ripeness changed. Hence these fat, plush low acid monsters.
4. Money follows success. 100 point wines that are easier to make on lesser terrors bring in big bucks. you may have a few stand up winemakers who buck the trend, but I am cynical enough to believe that winemakers were point chasing and needed to adhere to the Parker paradigm


Things got ridiculous in the years around 2010, where all the flaws of Parker's palate became magnified. As somebody who admired him for many years, I hope his legacy is about his early success rather than the critic he developed into.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by JCNorthway »

My hunch is that his dislike of more acidic wines was probably caused by a case of acid reflux. I know several men more senior than I who stay away from any wine that is more than slightly acidic. And if I were not taking medication for it, I would have trouble with wines like Chablis (the way the used to be made).
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by DavidG »

Nice summary Mark. I think you've nailed the two-phased effect Parker had on winemaking.

I'm not sure it's possible to point to a specific year where the switch went on and everyone suddenly began making better wine in cleaner facilities. More like a phase-in over the late eighties to early nineties. Or a year when the lights went off and everything was too dark and ripe. Also a phase-in, though the 1998 Australian Barossa Shiraz ooze-monsters stand out as a landmark.

And now that the push for uber-ripeness is phasing out, we should be left with most of the improvements in cleanliness and technology. I don't think we'll lose that. But I'm not sure that ripeness and alcohol levels will revert to the pre-Parker days. I suspect they will settle somewhere in between.

Overall I think history will judge Parker as a net positive for wine quality.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by stefan »

Jon, everyday I take Nexium, omeprozole, and ranitidine. Nevertheless, I pop a couple of Maalox before drinking Chablis, Champagne, or other high acid wines.
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by Musigny 151 »

Although it was more obvious later on, Parker was never a fan of acidity. If you look at the regions that Rovani took over, almost all of them had naturally higher acidity e.g. Germany, Loire, Burgundy etc.
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Claret
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by Claret »

In my old NYC wine dinner group there was a Sr. member named Bob who happened to be RMP's publisist. Bob told us Parker loved Italians the most, but I think that comment was made a couple of decades ago. All before bring on the ripe fruit.
Glenn
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AKR
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Re: Did we lose a generation of great Bordeaux because of RMP?

Post by AKR »

I love acidic foods - way more than anyone else in my family.

If you like lemon chicken, try this

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/articl ... en-our-way

Not sure if any red wine really works with this, but maybe a high acid Chianti or something
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