What Gives a Wine Length

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dstgolf
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What Gives a Wine Length

Post by dstgolf »

We just finished a 2010 Clos Lunelles Cotes de Castillon that was highly rated on futures and cellar tracker ratings 92+pts. Beautiful open nose with ripe plums black fruits and sweet roses. Lovely up front palate with plums,liquorice, and spice but still young with primary fruit and unfortunately a very short finish. The wine showed so much promise but it it just fell off the end of the palate! Like a teenage premature ejaculation ....pleasurable but severely lacking.!! Why does a wine deliver pleasure up front but there's no back end delivery. I've often wondered why the great wines linger on the palate and everyone knows what I'm talking about when it comes to a fabulous wine that just goes on and on just like a very memorable roll in the sack with pleasure that never ends and you don't want it to end. This wine had such wonderful promise on first visit on the nose and entry on the palate and yes pedigree has a lot to do with it but what really makes a great wine go on and on?? Maybe if we answer this we'll discover the answer to the perpetual orgasm.....sorry about the metaphoric comparison but it is very close in my mind about the pleasures of a great wine and great sex....well maybe I'd really prefer the sex but you get the point.

WHAT REALLY GIVES A WINE LENGTH IS WHAT I'M ASKING???? Are there any scientific answers?
Danny
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Nicklasss
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by Nicklasss »

I'm happy I can help Danny for once.

Wine is like sex : when well made, with ❤️, it has length!

Nic
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dstgolf
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by dstgolf »

Thanks Nic...a very scientific answer coming from the chemical engineer in the group. Nice to see the passionate Frenchman reigns supreme.
Danny
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AKR
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by AKR »

Concentration of the flavor compounds, which comes from good work in the vineyard, and sensible elevage.

Just like a tomato that has been ripened with lots of sun and time tastes better.

It's really the same with any fruit. Green harvesting, good light, weeding and all the rest get sweet, ripe fruit.

My mom's persimmons and pomegranates are outstanding since she picked up those habits from botanist (once upon a time) dad.

Commercial examples of those fruits, not so much.

======

My one irritation with Clos les Lunelles is their bottle shape. They don't fit properly in my storage.
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Chateau Vin
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by Chateau Vin »

AKR wrote:Concentration of the flavor compounds, which comes from good work in the vineyard, and sensible elevage.

Just like a tomato that has been ripened with lots of sun and time tastes better.

It's really the same with any fruit. Green harvesting, good light, weeding and all the rest get sweet, ripe fruit.

My mom's persimmons and pomegranates are outstanding since she picked up those habits from botanist (once upon a time) dad.

Commercial examples of those fruits, not so much.

======

My one irritation with Clos les Lunelles is their bottle shape. They don't fit properly in my storage.
That's the key... We used to own Orchards before, and there is always more work to be done on the field trying to prepare the orchard by pruning, tilling, weeding, etc. before the flowering starts. Sunlight is the king for any fruit/vegetable producing trees. So much so that we used to cut and prune whole branches of some trees that obstruct the sunlight to end up with quality fruit rather than quantity fruit...

One more thing I would like to add is the "time and what happens" between the fruit harvest and its usage...Case in point, Ch. De Malle, and based on my understanding and observations, they actually have potential to make better wines...
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dstgolf
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by dstgolf »

I agree with the concept of ripe fruit,green harvest,etc etc but there is lots of ripe fruit out there but few great wines that linger on the palate for over a minute making you savour the wine and leaving you wanting more rather than trying to find the bottom of the bottle which happens with the majority of wines. Those cerebral wines that are instantly noticeable once it hits your palate are rare indeed. Everyone has had the wine they put in their mouth and they know they've got something special. You look across the table looking for others reaction and see the joy on people's faces and then the comments come. What's the magic in that bottle that everyone knows when it happens but is difficult if not impossible to say why. It's not as simple as ripe fruit/vineyard practice etc. We're not talking eating that perfect tomato(which I must say this year were the best by far from our backyard but the rainiest summer in decades!!) I don't pretend to have the answer and I am only posing the question.
Danny
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DavidG
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by DavidG »

Like Danny I also think ripe fruit is a necessary component but not the entire answer. Maybe dry extract or tannins or something. A winemaker would probably be able to give a better answer.
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Chateau Vin
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by Chateau Vin »

dstgolf wrote:I agree with the concept of ripe fruit,green harvest,etc etc but there is lots of ripe fruit out there but few great wines that linger on the palate for over a minute making you savour the wine and leaving you wanting more rather than trying to find the bottom of the bottle which happens with the majority of wines. Those cerebral wines that are instantly noticeable once it hits your palate are rare indeed. Everyone has had the wine they put in their mouth and they know they've got something special. You look across the table looking for others reaction and see the joy on people's faces and then the comments come. What's the magic in that bottle that everyone knows when it happens but is difficult if not impossible to say why. It's not as simple as ripe fruit/vineyard practice etc. We're not talking eating that perfect tomato(which I must say this year were the best by far from our backyard but the rainiest summer in decades!!) I don't pretend to have the answer and I am only posing the question.
Of course, it's not just ripe fruit or better vineyard practices. Those are just few spokes in the wheel. The answer also includes vintage conditions, oenological practices, oak treatment, even the type of grape, etc. My understanding is when all such things align in a balanced manner the wine has the potential to be that magical finish. Also, long finish doesn't equate to quality. As everyone must have had the experience of tasting a wine with unwanted long finish. But it's hard to pin down and say for example that good phenolic ripeness and tannins will give a long finish...

We have had discussions about whether length of finish is affected by the timeline of ageing. Some said it doesn't, but I am not convinced by that argument.

Danny, just curious... Which recently consumed wine provided you with that magic?
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dstgolf
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by dstgolf »

CV,

The wine that had us looking around the table recently was the 2001 Canon la Gaffaliere. Beautiful plush wine with great fruit and length. Pales in comparison however to two that we had in BWE London...59 Conseillante and the 2004 Richebourg were stunning. I nursed both for hours and everyone kept coming back to their glasses commenting. You looked in the eyes around the table and everyone knew there was something special in the glass. There was no drinking with these two because all you wanted to do was sip ,savour and make these special wines linger through the night. There is no better joy than to have one of these beauties and to share with friends and fellow wine lovers.
Danny
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Carlos Delpin
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by Carlos Delpin »

Acidity? For me the wines that have good balance of acidity and fruit are the ones that display freshness and length.
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AlexR
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by AlexR »

Perhaps the best answer is, yup, terroir.

That is because great wines with tremendous lenghts are found in many countries, so the parameters vary enormously.

There is a scientific explanation why these have a fine, long aftertaste, but I am tempted to think that there are a tremendous many factors that are not understood at this time.
Might they be one day?
Might one be about to make great artificial wines?
I very much doubt it.
They tried to make good "wine" without alcohol.
But forget about it!!!

All the best,
Alex R.
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DavidG
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by DavidG »

Terroir is an interesting answer. Great terroir can produce wines of great length but also short insipid failures and everything in between. It depends weather and on decisions made in the vineyard and winery. So it might be a necessary but not a sufficient factor.

Are there any wines of great length made from lesser terroir? Ehen a lesser wine suddenly starts hitting home runs it’s usually because management started doing things right. Can that happen without great terroir? What about a wine like Tour St Christophe? Is that on hallowed ground or is it out of nowhere?
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jal
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by jal »

I'll jump on this bandwagon. Both Alex and Carlos have something there. Terroir and winemaking in my opinion, but especially winemaking.
Bad winemakers can ruin a wine from a great terroir. Good winemakers can make good wines from a mediocre terroir. But good winemakers with a good terroir can achieve acidity, balance, depth, and length.
And by good winemaking I mean a minimum of manipulation, just letting the terroir and fruit express itself, especially by avoiding over-extraction and excess oak.
The extracted over-ripe fruit bombs that create a great sweet first attack on the palate usually end abruptly, and become boring and monolithic after a few sips.
Best

Jacques
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DavidG
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by DavidG »

I like your answer Jacques. The same combination that can make a great wine can also make a wine of great length. And that combo is terroir and winemaking skill. I might add vineyard management skill as well since sometimes that can differ from winemaking skill.
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dstgolf
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by dstgolf »

Terroir,sun,phenolic ripeness,acidity all great ideas. If it was that easy then how come every chateau you walk into in Bordeaux or elsewhere through the world you are taken on the VAT tour,barrel room tour,computer room,lab etc etc. Multiple passes through vineyard when picking. Pick during the day or at night to prevent fermentation in the field under the daytime sun? Toss in sulfites in the grape bins again to stop fermentation before sorting and reaching the vat. If everything happens in the field then how come every wine maker is trying to tell you how their temperature controlled stainless steel multilayered vats are so far superior to the oak foudres which are no comparison to the cement vats and others use the amphora and yet some use fiberglass tubs and still produce great wines....maybe it all does happen in the vineyard and all of what happens in the vat rooms is useless. Computers/temperature control,rigid length of cold maceration,micro oxygenation,reverse osmosis and oh yah the cow horn in the field placed during a full moon does the trick. All this mumbo jumbo...maybe.... and buy a case of wine,store it for 17 years then have a large gathering where you open six bottles of the same wine,bought in the same case,stored in the same cellar and every wine is different to some degree. Yep it all happens in the vineyard for sure then why is there bottle variation....dirty bottles/poor glass standards/faulty/variable corks. Not easy to find the answer is it. Yes a wine maker will give you a story that is highly believable but move on to the next place and yes there are similarities but in the end there are so many variables that are so vastly different from place to place then how can there be a simple answer that its terroir. Great answer and easier than saying we just don't know and I think that's the real answer. If they knew the answer to what are the variables to make a great reproducible wine then why can't we dial up a bottle of 61 Lafite,45 Mouton etc. Maybe Rudy K really did have the answer and he's just not talking!! We all know a lot about wine but like everything else in life there's a hole lot that we don't know!!
Danny
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Nicklasss
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by Nicklasss »

Holy cow. After the Tasmanian Devil, the dstgolf-want-to-know-the-secret-of-length-in-wine!

I think i can try an answer, but it is true that it is a difficult issue. And i have a difficult and simili complex hypothetic answer.

Let me figure out how to write it in english.

Nic
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DavidG
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by DavidG »

It's all that stuff Danny, and we still don't know.

Or maybe it's burying a cow horn full of dung during the full moon.
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AKR
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by AKR »

dstgolf wrote:Terroir,sun,phenolic ripeness,acidity all great ideas. If it was that easy then how come every chateau you walk into in Bordeaux or elsewhere through the world you are taken on the VAT tour,barrel room tour,computer room,lab etc etc. Multiple passes through vineyard when picking. Pick during the day or at night to prevent fermentation in the field under the daytime sun? Toss in sulfites in the grape bins again to stop fermentation before sorting and reaching the vat. If everything happens in the field then how come every wine maker is trying to tell you how their temperature controlled stainless steel multilayered vats are so far superior to the oak foudres which are no comparison to the cement vats and others use the amphora and yet some use fiberglass tubs and still produce great wines....maybe it all does happen in the vineyard and all of what happens in the vat rooms is useless. Computers/temperature control,rigid length of cold maceration,micro oxygenation,reverse osmosis and oh yah the cow horn in the field placed during a full moon does the trick. All this mumbo jumbo...maybe.... and buy a case of wine,store it for 17 years then have a large gathering where you open six bottles of the same wine,bought in the same case,stored in the same cellar and every wine is different to some degree. Yep it all happens in the vineyard for sure then why is there bottle variation....dirty bottles/poor glass standards/faulty/variable corks. Not easy to find the answer is it. Yes a wine maker will give you a story that is highly believable but move on to the next place and yes there are similarities but in the end there are so many variables that are so vastly different from place to place then how can there be a simple answer that its terroir. Great answer and easier than saying we just don't know and I think that's the real answer. If they knew the answer to what are the variables to make a great reproducible wine then why can't we dial up a bottle of 61 Lafite,45 Mouton etc. Maybe Rudy K really did have the answer and he's just not talking!! We all know a lot about wine but like everything else in life there's a hole lot that we don't know!!
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You can recite all the above while watching this old classic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeK5ZjtpO-M
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by AlohaArtakaHoundsong »

Have to admit I was expecting more one-factor answers, like "glycerin." While I'm sure that a wine's character, including the aspect of "length," is a function of all of the things cited above, like "terroir" and "climate," does anyone have a guess as to what is the proximate factor to "length?" Length is perceived; what makes us perceive it more than anything else?
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by DavidG »

Persistent polyphenols?
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Re: What Gives a Wine Length

Post by AKR »

I think dry extract and/or IPT would be the numerical expressions of length.

But I'm not sure that means things will be automatically harmonious.

A simple sugar syrup (or Buller's Muscats and Tokays!) might score high on that too, but its hard to drink more than a glass of that...
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