Bordeaux Vs. Shiraz

spikegrhm · Post by **spikegrhm** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:24 am

Being a Bordeaux fan I generally stay away from the ultra modern wine world. However, we had friends for dinner last night who are Aussie fans so I peaked in my cellar to see what might fit my guest palates. I found a bottle of 2006 Mollydooker Carnival of Love (97 pts by Parker as I recall). I remember paying just shy of $100 for this bottle. Decanted for two hours (lots of sediment). This 16 abv bruiser has evolved into a porty/raisiny wine with few redeeming characteristics. It has been properly cellared since release. All I could think of while consuming this beast was , wish I'd spent that money on a bottle of (fill in the blank with your favorite right banker) . Just curious, Howe, Comte, Arv, do find these aged Aussie beast to have an appeal ? Spike

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:55 pm

That doesn't sound like something I would enjoy at any age. Actually, I haven't been impressed by any Australian wines, white or red.

I only buy ageworthy Syrah - from one or two sources in the Napa Valley.
No alcohol fruitbombs for me.

Am still waiting for my first experience with Northern Rhone Syrah though.

Claret · Post by **Claret** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:51 pm

I generally prefer Aussie whites. Grange is a reference point for the best wine of the Southern hemisphere with a price to match. High alcohol reds from Australia are not my cup of raisins.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:29 pm

>>
All I could think of while consuming this beast was , wish I'd spent that money on a bottle of (fill in the blank with your favorite right banker)
>>

Yes, it is not just the money wasted, but mainly the lost opportunity to drink something that you like.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:34 pm

I might drink one OZ wine a year, and probably buy less than that.

I did have a good Penfolds low end shiraz/cab blend a couple of years ago in some Idaho steakhouse, that was maybe $15-$20 for the bottle.

At that price, when dining out, I'd pay attention.

Industry contacts tell me there isn't much bid for all those 15 year old Parker point wines that were imported into the US back when they were a little more chi chi.

For syrah, the only place I buy / drink is the No. Rhone. We had a lovely 2003 Cote Rotie a couple of nights ago. Unf, these have really rocketed up in prices.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:39 pm

I should note that there are some good Languedoc syrah's too. Not reliably available though.

Rene Rostaing's Puech Noble various bottlings are definitely worth a look for. HDH sometimes has some.

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:19 pm

I didn’t buy a ton of Aussie wines but I did dip my toes and purchased some of the more sought after high scoring wines and while some have completely unraveled leaving me shaking my head in disgust, every once in a while I do come across one that is still enjoyable (2003 Mitolo GAM is the recent one that springs to mind). But I agree with the general premise, the money would have been better spent on GC Burgundy or Bdx than GC Shiraz

jal · Post by **jal** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:33 pm

Yup, just like Glenn, Arv and JC I also bought about half a dozen bottles way back, seduced by the price and the shine of the high Parker points.
The ones I drank right away like the d'Aremberg Dead Arm and the Fox Creek Reserve were quite boring and gave me massive headaches.
Massive, with layers of flavors is how Parker described them, I thought they were monotonous and had one layer only - sweetness. I did age a couple that I opened at age 10-12, and the result was similar; alcoholic, ripe, boring with stewed as opposed to sweet fruit.
I think the only impressive Shiraz I can think of is Grange but at that price point any LaLa would do.
For now, I stick, like Arv, to Northern Rhones and occasionally Sonoma to buy Porter Creek and a few others.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:44 pm

I thought most of the d'Arenberg lineup of cutely named bottlings drank best when young.

Still those are safe bets if one was traveling, or a winebar or something.

I saved some Fox Creek cabernets, and although rough/tannic in their youth, they blossomed with age. Surprisingly.

Amazingly, I was able to sell them easily when I moved out west.

I think part of the 'problem' OZ wines have had in recent years in the US market is simply the currency.

In 2000 I think it was two per USD, and then it went to parity during the commodity boom cycle.

When that happens I think the fungible wines - i.e. those which are purchased because they taste good and are 'wine' rather than Veblen goods - have doubled in price to the consumer.

Importers might then very rationally look to other southern hemisphere regions like Argentina.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:25 pm

Australia = stewed wines.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:32 pm

I went through my Parker-driven Aussie phase. It didn't last long. I sold or gifted most of the 98-point ooze-monsters and held on to most of the Grange. Opened a 1989 Grange last week that was excellent. A couple of bottles of Glaetzer Amon-Ra weren't too over the top. Still have one of those. Carnival of Love is one of the worst offenders.

I also had a fling with US Syrah for a few years. That's over too but I'm still holding a few bottles of SQN. A lot of the trouble with the too-sweet, over-ripe fruit and high alcohol levels in the Australian wines are found in a lot of US Syrahs as well.

The Northern Rhone is where I go when I want Syrah. Jamet, Ogier, Chave, Levet, Gonon and Allemand are favorites. Even there, Syrah takes a far back seat to Bordeaux in my cellar.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:53 pm

Spike - reading your post and those of the wise heads on the forum I found myself nodding in agreement. What I could add is this: if you want to drink Aussie shiraz you are better off with the producers who were around well before Parker ‘discovered’ Aussie Shiraz, because that was a cynical cottage industry producing trash/dross, with Carnival of Love being only one of the most grotesque manifestations of the phenomenon. Another is the utterly loathsome Rusden Black Guts

So stick with Penfolds, Henschke, Rockford, St-Hallet, none of which offer value for money propositions these days. Penfolds Grange has always been at the pinnacle of Australian winemaking. I have about a dozen and a half bottles of Grange but very little else from Australia.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:51 pm

Back in 2016 I got a bottle of the 2009 Penfolds RWT Shiraz for $90 and was so impressed I went back and got half a case, which is as much as I ever buy of a wine over about $30. HUGE wine but also had a massive structure and was very well balanced. I compared it to a big bruiser in a perfectly tailored suit when I drank it. I think it will age very well.

Have had similar experiences to others with other Barossa wines though. Including the Fox Creek Cabernet which I found boringly sweet.

The Australian producer I really love, though is Wynns, specifically the Cabernets. The Coonawarra Cabernets they do are totally different than Barossa wines, far more interesting and very Cabernet with minerality, mint, and that green stalky quality, while at the same time having a new world richness to them. Really vivid, strong acidity too. They age incredibly well. Sadly, they are no longer widely available in the U.S.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:28 pm

Parker points + Aussie wine = awful.

I went to a tasting in 2008 organized by Jeb Dunnuck. The theme was Aussie reds scored 97 points or higher by Parker, and it was the worst tasting I’ve ever attended by far. Most of the wines were utter train wrecks. Mollydooker was there and universally panned by all the old world wine fans in attendance.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:55 pm

Australia red wines aren't for my palate at all, a bit like the wannabe dry white Pessac Léognan.

I avoid aussie Shiraz too, most of them being way too much of everything for me. When I was in Australia in 2007, I liked some Penfold's Chardonnay and some Hunter Valley Semillon, but even if well done, I always found they were having also a "fake plastic tree" side.

By the way, I never understood how Parker can give a 97 to an aussie Shiraz, and the same 97 to the 2005 Chateau Malescot St-Exupéry for example.

Nic

Bonus: i don't know why, but I have the perception that someone who likes Trump, must also likes big aussie red wine.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:40 pm

Nicklasss wrote: Bonus: i don't know why, but I have the perception that someone who likes Trump, must also likes big aussie red wine.

Only if you served it double blind.

BordeauxNut · Post by **BordeauxNut** » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:12 am

JimHow wrote:Australia = stewed wines.

Jim, for someone with as much wine experience as you that's a gross misrepresentation. As a general class of wine, I'm never going to wax poetic about Aussie reds. But, to call them all stewed is like saying that all Bordeaux is lean, fruitless, green, watery swill. Not fair. There are a number of different microclimates in Australia that produce wines in a variety of styles.

That said, a lot of it is stewy plonk.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:21 am

Well, ok BN, I'll go along with "a lot of it is stewy plonk."

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:43 pm

Mr. Sturgeon, 90% of science fiction is pure crap.

"My dear fellow, 90% of everything is pure crap."

BordeauxNut · Post by **BordeauxNut** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:33 am

stefan wrote:Mr. Sturgeon, 90% of science fiction is pure crap.

"My dear fellow, 90% of everything is pure crap."

Exactly

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:18 am

The problem, in my experience, is that the appealing Australian red wines have a terrible QPR in the USA.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:57 am

In addition to Grange, Henschke Hill of Grace is great stuff. But very hard to find.

I also like Mount Mary Quintet, but that’s a Bordeaux blend.

Claret · Post by **Claret** » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:32 pm

jckba wrote:every once in a while I do come across one that is still enjoyable (2003 Mitolo GAM is the recent one that springs to mind).

I sold the Epicurian Imports line from Ben Hammerschlag. Lots of Parker points back in the early 00's. I did like the GAM though. A very polished effort.

BigTex22 · Post by **BigTex22** » Fri May 04, 2018 1:03 am

I've had good experience with Clarendon Hills.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Fri May 04, 2018 3:26 pm

BigTex22 wrote:I've had good experience with Clarendon Hills.

That was one of the few I used to buy a long time ago, but they always seemed kind of $$ for what they were.

Don't think I've had one in a decade though.

gremlins · Post by **gremlins** » Sat May 05, 2018 2:47 pm

Pardon me. I am a lurker and enjoy some of the banters here.
But to degrade Aussie's wine is not what we as wine lover should do.
To each of his own. There are people who appreciate and like wines made in the styles of the Aussies.
We don't have to diss them just because it is not to our liking.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat May 05, 2018 3:17 pm

Gremlins, I think part of the issue is that the Australian wines exported to the US are (were?) not representative of what the country has to offer. The Parker-driven Grateful Palate style of really ripe Shiraz that comprised the bulk of the Aussie invasion in the 90s got a lot of us to jump on those wines. Some were disappointed right off, others later down the road as their palate preferences changed and/or the wines didn't age as desired.

So I agree, we shouldn't disparage the entire country's wine industry based on a non-representative sample or on simply different preferences. Just offering some perspective on the negative comments

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sat May 05, 2018 3:47 pm

It's just opinion, what people do on a blog site in a free speech society.
I'm guessing that the Australian wine industry will survive notwithstanding a few comments among tens of thousands -- on one website, among millions -- that take the position that the wines of Australia are often stewy. It's called freedom of speech.
I think you start stunting discussion if you expect apologies every time someone makes a criticism or comment with which you disagree.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sat May 05, 2018 3:59 pm

The Australian wine industry's biggest problem is their vulnerability to currency moves.

Maybe if the Chinese property/building boom fizzles out the wines will be available at a fair & just prices.

spikegrhm · Post by **spikegrhm** » Sat May 05, 2018 10:12 pm

Gremlins, I wrote the original post re Aussie wines. I thought it disappointing that I had purchased a $100 wine touted as being ageable which seemingly fell apart over 12 years. I offer that as a reasonable comment worthy of further discussion . Spike

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sat May 05, 2018 11:28 pm

Arv, your financial savvy has left me in the dust. What is the connection between the Chinese construction industry and the price of Australian wines in the US?

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sun May 06, 2018 1:37 am

The Chinese are voracious consumers of steel, concrete, copper etc. Many of these raw inputs are sourced from OZ. So as China needs to buy these, they have to buy AUD, which pushes up the currency.

As/if/when that cycle turns, and their currency goes back down to lower values, perhaps the OZ wines will become cheaper to the US/UK consumer.

==================

One of my colleagues went to go work some where in Australia, maybe Sydney. He has been shocked by

a) price levels, apparently a cup of coffee is $7
b) levels of public drunkeness, even in the day time
c) problems with marsupials eating his electrical junction box, and shorting out his house

I don't have much sympathy.

All very predictable, 'coming to the nuisance' kinds of issues.

That, and calling syrah -- 'shiraz'

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun May 06, 2018 3:06 am

Thanks for explaining Arv.

I was invited to speak at a medical conference in Sydney in 2012. Prices weren’t bad back then, and I didn’t have any run-ins with marsupials. However...

I arrived at 6 AM local time, way too early for my hotel room to be ready. It was raining cats and dogs. I left my bags with the hotel bellman, looked around the deserted lobby, and asked what one might do on a rainy Sunday at 6 AM in Sydney. The immediate reply: "Drink, mate!"

Ambrose · Post by **Ambrose** » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:59 am

As an Australian, this is an interesting thread to look back on.

Geez Parker picked some shockers to get behind: the absolute worst of the worst. The local demand for a lot of these monsters was, and still is very close to zero. The cognoscenti here ignore basically all the wines mentioned above: even Grange is perceived as a wine for people with no knowledge and lots of money, as good as it is. Parker, amazing as he was, will be remembered here particularly harshly for leading people and producers up the garden path here into making and owning some horrible, horrible juice. A reputation that is taking a long time to shake.

When I visited the Barossa in 2011 I was pretty new to wine. We spent 3-4 days touring around (beautiful place, full of history and culture*). But I couldn’t get my head around the wines, the very ordinary trio of 07, 08** 09 did absolutely nothing for me when, at this stage in my wine life I should have been seduced by power and sweetness. I thought to myself so much of the pedestal that the Barossa Valley sits on is mainly due the history and old vines. Quite simply, this is too hot a place to make fine wine & is making a style I don’t care for, especially at the prices they were asking.

Recently though, I’ve been picking through my very scarce last few 10-15 year old Barossa wines in my cellar. Penfolds, Kalleske, Turkey Flat & even some very old Henschke stuff from a friends cellar. Surprisingly, they’ve been very good and matured really nicely, and often enough resemble a sound, mature Bordeaux. Perfect drinking for mid winter so I can save my Cote Roties and Burgundies for spring. I’m genuinely regretting not putting a few more away in the name of science.

*By Australian standards at least.
** for most producers, especially those who picked late.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:51 pm

Ambrose
I’m another Aussie though currently abide in Singapore.
I’ve regularly written about the perverse effect of RPJnr on many Aussie wines and do make a huge distinction between the Parkerised wines and the traditional styles. The worst tasting I ever did was in Singapore ten years or so ago, of those highly rated syrupy, high alcohol monsters. Yuck. Several 100 point wines including various Greenock Creek Shirazes were tried that obliterated my palate rather quickly.

Yet most Barossa wines are - thankfully - not like that. I’m sipping through a case of Turkey Flat Shiraz from the very good 2010 vintage and it is a terrific wine with lots of fruit but also savoury characters and medium body. There is enough acid and tannins to balance the wine. My other fav is Rockford Basket Press which I’ve been buying since the first vintage. Unfortunately Henscke wines are hard to find here and too expensive for me. To think Hill of Grace cost $20 in the 80s and even the 1990 only cost $40.

I like Penfolds in small quantities and whilst I agree that they are well made, after a while I think they start all tasting the same. And that is despite being a TWE shareholder…. Well Brokenwood Graveyard is also now $350 and the first vintage of it cost me the princely sum of $4.95.

I have never got Grange. I went to a big Grange vertical that included every vintage to 1990 including the experimental 1951 (in a bottle with a hand written label) and I liked them but it just never moved me. I’ve tried a few vintages over here and again see no reason to buy it at its current price.

Having said that, I think that except for Burgundy, Australia makes the best Chardonnay in the world and with no exceptions the best Riesling. We even make the occasional top Pinot Noir. Just not too often.

Cheers
Mark

Dionysus · Post by **Dionysus** » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:14 pm

Claudius2 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:51 pm Having said that, I think that except for Burgundy, Australia makes the best Chardonnay in the world and with no exceptions the best Riesling. We even make the occasional top Pinot Noir. Just not too often.

I will admit I haven't had much Australian Riesling Mark, but I've had a fair amount of German Riesling and I'm finding it hard to believe Aussie Riesling is better!!

But I'm always willing to be proved wrong

Any recommendations in particular?

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:38 am

Why not both together?

https://www.millesima.fr/domaine-de-sul ... -2016.html

AR

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:36 pm

Conor
Whenever I try German Riesling I find that I want an Aussie version instead. Yes I have had various Alsatian, Rhine, Mosel and even Saxon Riesling that were excellent, the style of Clare, Eden Valley and WA Rieslings suit my palate.

Funny I don’t seem to drink Riesling that often. I’d say 90% of the white I drink is either white Burgundy or Aussie Chardonnay and import some Burgundies directly.

Grosset is the most well regarded producer but there are many good producers.

Cheers
Mark

Dionysus · Post by **Dionysus** » Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:09 pm

Claudius2 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:36 pm Grosset is the most well regarded producer but there are many good producers.

Thanks Mark. Does Aussie Riesling age well, in general of course?

I'll check out Grosset...I can get the Polish Hill Riesling for around €40 a bottle locally, which seems reasonable.
I see that Gosset also produce a well regarded Chardonnay...will try one.

I do love Aussie chardonnay...always loved Leeuwin Estate Art Series, but pricing has crept up. Ambrose posted some great alternatives previously.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:52 pm

Conor
Well it becomes heady and golden after about ten years, so it depends on the style you like. Like European Riesling it can pick up those petrol or kerosene notes that I can take or leave. And one advantages with Riesling from Australia is that it does not have the cult status of Chardonnays like Leeuwin, Giaconda, Tyrells Bat 47, Cullen, Savaterre, Pierro etc.

The Grosset Chardonnay is very good - maybe not quite up there with the very best, but I finished off a case of the 2015 recently and very much enjoyed it. Lots of minerality and dense fruit without heaviness. Yarra Valley and Mornington Peninsula also make very good Chardonnay and many are not as expensive as the most renowned wines from Margaret River. Yet there are plenty in Margaret River that don’t have high prices such as Credaro, CapecMentelle, Thompson Estate and Ashbrook.

There is sometimes a perception that Aust wines are heavy but most Chardonnays are not. The makers over the years have moved on from the 100% Malolactic, heavily oaked versions.

Cheers
Mark

PS I’m drinking Remoissenet White Burgundy now thus variety is important too.