What are Bordeaux’s best values?

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Tue May 29, 2018 9:37 pm

After re-reading Eric Asimov's February 1st column entitled 'Your Next Lesson: Value Bordeaux' over the weekend ( http://www.bordeauxwineenthusiasts.com/ ... mov#p63575 ) I came up with the idea that we as a collective group can come up with a multitude of better examples than this buffoon who championed the couple of Bdx wines that are brought in by his trusted friends (Kermit Lynch and Neal Rosenthal) from the worst vintage for red Bdx that I can remember.

The way I envision this thread working is that it should serve as a running list of value wines which speak to any one of us and I think we just need to establish that a value wine by definition; is simply a wine that offers great value for its respective price point.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue May 29, 2018 9:51 pm

Cantemerle.

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Tue May 29, 2018 9:56 pm

To start this thread off with a bang, I absolutely love the top Pomerols and Saint Emilions but due to their low production levels some of the pricing is reaching near stratospheric levels and as a result I have been forced to cut back and look for alternatives. I did however taste three brilliant 2015 wines from the Denis Durantou stable (of L’Eglise Clinet fame) in Les Cruzelles Lalande de Pomerol, Montlandrie Cotes de Castillon and Saintayme Saint Emilion over the weekend and all I can say is whoa, these wines are the real deal and you owe it to yourself to try a bottle as they can usually be found for under $30!

And if you know of a better value in Bdx, I’d like to hear about it!

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Tue May 29, 2018 11:54 pm

Good question jckba, and like you, I'll be looking the answers.

Denis Durantou's less expensive wines are surely good choices, but I never had them.

For me, really good value red Bordeaux can be found south of Bordeaux.

Chateau Rochemorin (Pessac Léognan from Lurton) and Chateau Roquetaillade La Grange (Graves) are reliable. Their whites are excellent values too.

I like wines from Fronsac. La Dauphine, La Rivière and de Carles are very merlot, but with good density.

Nic

AlohaArtakaHoundsong · Wed May 30, 2018 12:55 am

I would say almost all the wines I post TNs on are good values. They are generally lower-priced, many are extremely low priced and I find almost all of them tasty and having some Bordeaux typicality. And contrary to common wisdom I find almost all of them (that I have cared to hold or bought "pre-owned") to have an interesting evolution out to the 20-year mark at least.

It would be a lot easier for me to say what for my money have not been good values. The $70 dollar (in early-mid 2000s pricing) 1996 Montrose is kind of my poster wine for poor value. Not a poor wine but a poor value. Perhaps other vintages deliver more for that price (or much higher prices).

Wines that I have at least four vintages experience with (I would hardly go to four years on a chateau that disappointed) that I would consider good values include Ch. Sociando Mallet and Ch. la Tour de Mons.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed May 30, 2018 1:04 am

Great topic and always worth a periodic update as prices and styles are a moving target. Many wines I would have put on this list 5 years ago or so are now too pricey to justify inclusion (eg Beychevelle, Canon, Haut Bailly).

Sociando Mallet — my all time QPR. Has its number retired already even if they quadrupled the price tomorrow.
Léoville Barton — takes a long time to come around, but that said, it’s consistently as good as other Bordeaux which are consistently priced 2-4x what it costs.
Cantemerle — yes.
Lanessan — at $15 a pop, up there for all-world QPR. The 2009 drinks like a $50+ wine.
Lagune — the best mature vintages (~2000 and older) still go for a song, and if the style hasn’t changed too much, pricing for 2005-present is quite attractive.
Vieille Cure — not loved by all, but for the ~$20 it goes for, I’m always at least content. The 2003 is surprisingly good and shows plenty of traditional character for a chateau with a high priced consultant.
Gloria — duh.
Du Tertre — been punching way above its weight for decades.
La Tour Bonnet — amazing juice for $10, albeit rustic and requiring some aging to show well. The 2005 is only just rounding into form.
Carbonnieux Blanc — lovely, one of my favorite $30-$35 whites from anywhere.

Prior QPR Winners:
-Chauvin was terrific value in 98 and 00, but I haven’t tried the newer ones so can’t say.
-I used to love Charmail in vintages like 96 and 00, but my palate changed and I find the 05 (which I bought in volume) less to my tastes. Still, solid stuff is a mid mid-modern vein, but I stopped buying after the 05.
-Pipeau, same as Charmail

KWP · Post by **KWP** » Wed May 30, 2018 2:53 am

Too many to list...off top of my head...

Lanessan
Cantemerle
Picque Caillou
Vielle Cure
Pibran
Mathilde
Mongravey
Barde Haut
Haut Bergey
Chantegrieve
La Croix Mouton

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Wed May 30, 2018 3:14 am

Senejac
Potensac
Meyney

spikegrhm · Post by **spikegrhm** » Wed May 30, 2018 12:57 pm

Nice to see that many of us are singing in the same choir. Lanessan, Haut Bergey, Potensac, La Tour du Mons. Spike

danzur · Post by **danzur** » Wed May 30, 2018 1:46 pm

I'll need to try Vielle Cure again...I had a couple before, 2005 I believe, and found them tough to like. Tough, unforgiving....

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed May 30, 2018 2:32 pm

The 2005 of the Vieille Cure is outlier in my experience, really tannic and hard. I haven’t tried in a while as I’m sitting on my remaining stash in the hopes it softens up more. But the 03, 04, 06 and 09 (borderline overripe but a hedonistic, fun quaff for the $18 it cost on release) were open for business when I last tried them.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Wed May 30, 2018 2:51 pm

Total Wine pushes La Vieille Cure but I don't like their price of $27 for the 2012 (or the high ABV), so I haven't bought any yet.
I haven't had Lanessan older than 2010 and those aren't ready to drink yet IMO. I hope with some age it's better than my first impression.
I like the 2014 Lanessan but missed out on availability at favorable pricing.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Wed May 30, 2018 3:00 pm

You know, I don't drink wine on a daily basis so I don't need to buy by the case or anything. In that context, I would rather buy a solid classed growth like Branaire Ducru or whatever at $40 in an "off" year (both 2012 and 2014 Branaire Ducru are available for $40-45) then spend $20-25 on a supposedly bargain Haut Medoc. I just feel like the step up in quality is huge and I'll spend the extra $20 for it.

Of course, what you view as a bargain is so dependent on income and how much you drink that it doesn't generalize. For some people it's a big bargain when you find a super second at $100 because comparable quality wines are $200+.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Wed May 30, 2018 3:09 pm

Love the idea of this thread and lots of good recommendations for daily drinker.

I had the 2005 Lanessan over the weekend and really liked it, especially for the low $20s I spent on it. Not really complex but nicely integrated, and I’m not sure that’s a wine designed for long-term aged complexity. I’ll find out if I can keep my hands off. Haven’t dipped into any younger ones yet.

danzur · Post by **danzur** » Wed May 30, 2018 5:05 pm

I grabbed a case of '99'Lanessan last Summer from K&L-I've opened 2 so far, both absolutely singing. I'll work through the rest over the next 2 years. Likely my best sub-$20 purchase in a long time.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Thu May 31, 2018 12:03 am

I agree that it is tough to define "best value". Personally, i named wines under 25$. There are so many different Bordeaux, that targeting only Crus Classés is a choice, nothing less, nothing more. But never forget that Bordeaux is way more than the Crus Classés. Diversity of terroirs, diversity of prices, diversity of quality.

I think there are many impressive wines that are not Classés or even Bourgeois. There a lot of pre conceived idea about a wine, when it's price is higher or reputation great (is this only marketing?). This has been demonstrated many time.

Nic

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Thu May 31, 2018 3:20 am

I think the regions best values are in the big, ripe years.

The wineries that can't afford all the fancy harvesting and elevage tricks end up making fine wines when the weather cooperates.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu May 31, 2018 1:27 pm

I agree Arv. A good QPR strategy is to buy the lesser wines in the greater years. But there can be exceptions if you like the less-ripe higher-acid style.

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:34 am

Been drinking a '15 st. emilion grand cru named
Haut Cadet...$19.99

Very solid, pan grille, minerality, black cherries and some mintuness...very pleasing.

Find at Total wine

felixp21 · Post by **felixp21** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:32 am

Du Tertre
Branaire Ducru
Senejac
Fleur de Bouard (although, sadly, the price has crept up)
Beauregard
Clos des Menuts

Ognik · Post by **Ognik** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:56 am

Any Cru Bourgeois and non classified Chateau from this region i suppose

. Lot of stunning value for money.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:31 am

Another vote for the Rochemorin that Nic mentioned above. I think Patrick first turned me on to this. I never would have heard of it or been tempted without his enthusiasm. Both the 2009 and 2010 offered up a lot of delicious Graves-yness for low-mid $20s.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:31 am

Folks,
with the exclusion of the first growths, garargiste wines, super seconds and a handful of others, I think that the value of Bordeaux wines is pretty good these days.
I do not bother with the trophy wines any more. So I look for QPR in any case.

The wines I have bought en primeur (pre arrival) in recent vintages include the following:

St Juien
Branaire
St Pierre
Langoa Barton

St Estephe
Calon Segur

Margaux
Prieure Lichine
Dufort Viviens
Labegorce (16 only)
Giscours
Du Tertre
Cantenac Brown
Malescot St. Exupery

Haut Medoc
La Lagune
Sociando Mallet

Pauillac
D'armhiallac

St Emilion
La Dominique
Moulin St Georges
Fleur Cardinale
Bellefont Belcier
Monbousquet
Clos L'oratoire
L'arrossee
Barde haut
Fonroque
La Confession

Graves/Pessac
Dom. Chevailer (rouge)
Haut Bergey

I consider them to all pretty good value, and whilst I do have some more expensive wines (Lafleur, LLC, Clinet, whatever) I am quite happy drinking middle ranked wines these days.
Overall, I find Pauillac, St Estephe and Pomerol to be too expensive most of the time.

greatbxfreak · Post by **greatbxfreak** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:48 am

La Lagune and Meyney. Lanessan can also be added.

robertgoulet · Post by **robertgoulet** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:56 pm

2015 Haut Cadet grand cru st. emilion at Total S'wine is quite solid $20...and an asy to find right now

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:48 pm

If one can get shipping fron K&L in California, they always have a healthy spectrum of Bordeaux, at value prices.

It's beyond crazy if you filter on their lists. But they have direct import connections.

Winex is Southern California is also worth getting emails from, although their still extensive inventory cycles through faster, and offerings sell out quickly.

Typically every summer on/about Bastille Day they will have store wide sale on French wines, which is usually compelling enough to wait for.

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:44 am

Here's a few cheapies not mentioned but have struck well above their price point in at least 05/09/10 where I can vouch for them.

St Paul
St George(not Moulin SG)
d'Aighuille
Belle Vue
Pipeau
Fougas Maldoror
Sanctus
Rolland de By
Clos Marsellatte

To add a few more to peoples lists of great QPR. I suspect in the USA most if not all will be south of $20 or definitely sub $30.

Ryan DB · Post by **Ryan DB** » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:02 am

It's hard to find a better value today than Lilian Ladouys. Even in the excellent 2015 and 2016 vintages, I believe their futures were around $20-25.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:59 am

Blanquito wrote:Great topic and always worth a periodic update as prices and styles are a moving target. Many wines I would have put on this list 5 years ago or so are now too pricey to justify inclusion (eg Beychevelle, Canon, Haut Bailly).

Prior QPR Winners:
-Chauvin was terrific value in 98 and 00, but I haven’t tried the newer ones so can’t say.
-I used to love Charmail in vintages like 96 and 00, but my palate changed and I find the 05 (which I bought in volume) less to my tastes. Still, solid stuff is a mid mid-modern vein, but I stopped buying after the 05.
-Pipeau, same as Charmail

I'm drinking a 2000 Chauvin right now - its cool and balanced, a touch of minty/strawberry notes to it. Still has lots of fruit and has not turned leathery/earthy/foresty yet. I stopped by a restaurant fish supply place and picked up yellowtail, salmon, and tombo to make handrolls tonight. A bottle of this and sitting outside by the pool (something is broken with a pump filter though!) is quite nice. The mosquitoes fed well too, since I forgot to turn on all the citronella / smoke widgets .... sigh.

Newer vintages seem to be checking in at the $40-$50 points rather than the $300/cs zone this was EP. I wouldn't pay that for newer ones without retasting them.

robert goulet · Post by **robert goulet** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:45 am

https://www.winemag.com/buying-guide/ch ... -bordeaux/

The Tertre is on sale here for $12.50...pretty solid bordeaux. Also had the '14 Bad Boy (garcon)...another one on sale for $11.50..quite tasty, much better than anticipated.

Both wines are unmistakenly bordeaux, but also have some new world characteristics...these will appeal to a wide audience

brodway · Post by **brodway** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:16 pm

Arv

i also picked up the minty notes in the 2000 Chauvin. was not as wowed by it as you seem to be. thought it was a bit disjointed and lacked depth, although the fruit was there. it is a good wine in a different price bracket (i picked up the 2000 under $30) at $50 i'd rather be drinking 2016 Langoa Barton, in my opinion a more coherent effort and made in a more classic Bordeaux style

robert goulet · Post by **robert goulet** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:56 pm

'14 d'armailhac on sale here for $29!
'12 Phelan for $32

robert goulet · Post by **robert goulet** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:32 pm

I grabbed a couple bottles of
'15 Château Mazeyres...13.5%alc. and 24% franc in the blend...$23
Made by Christian Moueix cousin Alain...anyone have experience w/ this label?

Ryan DB · Post by **Ryan DB** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:39 pm

It's hard to argue with Blanquito's list. My list would be very similar.

I don't equate value with cheap. For me, it's a ratio of quality to price, and values can be found at most price points. With this in mind, I would find it hard to find a better value than du Tertre. The quality is generally fantastic, and the 2005 is one of my personal favorites. I'll also give a shout out to the 2009 Lanessan. I don't think I can think of a better sub-$20 wine in Bordeaux than Lanessan.

robert goulet · Post by **robert goulet** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:05 pm

Been tearing thru '16 ch. camarsac....solid stuff!! $10.99

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:39 pm

I think you boys know my number one value play. Heck, I don’t even care that’s its cheap, it’s so damn good.

robert goulet · Post by **robert goulet** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:58 pm

dstgolf wrote:Here's a few cheapies not mentioned but have struck well above their price point in at least 05/09/10 where I can vouch for them.

St Paul
St George(not Moulin SG)
d'Aighuille
Belle Vue
Pipeau
Fougas Maldoror
Sanctus
Rolland de By
Clos Marsellatte

To add a few more to peoples lists of great QPR. I suspect in the USA most if not all will be south of $20 or definitely sub $30.

Alfert and I both happened to be in Vegas at the same time for business...we stopped by the Helix (name?) wine bar...we popped a 2003 Rolland de by....killler juice...old school earthy mushroom and tobacco...delish

robert goulet · Post by **robert goulet** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:00 pm

I remember going gaga over the old shoe worn leather in a basement action from a 2004 larose trintaudon...love

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:36 pm

@brodway - I think Chauvin at $25-$30 is fair. I'd give it a B+ or so grade. I think it was a little better a few years ago but its not fading. I actually found a bottle of their 2009 Vieux Chateaux Chauvin, a bottling I've not seen/tried in 15 years. 1000(?) cs luxe lot was made. We've had prior discussion on it here, if you search.

@robert goulet - is that the Mazeyres Pomerol? if so, I think I've had 1988 a very long time ago, maybe age 10-12. picked up 2012 a few years ago, and it is sitting in the rack. There is also some other estate in another AOC with a similar name which can cause confusion. you got a good price if its the Pomerol.

robert goulet · Post by **robert goulet** » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:45 pm

Yes sir, the str8 Chateau Mazeyres Pomerol '15 from the stable of alain moueix who owns Fonroque

The Maz [quote][/quote]was discounted to $23 and since all the bottles I bought came out to just over $100 I received another $10 discount...so bottle price came to around $21 per...nice