2017 primeurs coming out

[AlexR]

Hi,

This company is owned by Moueix: https://www.chateauprimeur.com/

It'll give you an idea of prices being charged in France.
You need to add 20% sales tax (VAT).

I see that Château Margaux has just come out, and that the white Pavillon Blanc costs more than the red.
I must say that the 2017 white I tasted with Izak Litwar was superlative. It was by far the best I have ever had and ranks up there as one of the top white Bordeaux I've ever been privilieged to sample.

All the best,
Alex R.

[Musigny 151]

Alex,
I did not get to taste the 2017s, but have read and talked to merchants, and can see absolutely no reason to rush out and buy any. By all accounts, it is inconsistent, and as a whole, less exciting that '15 and '16 both of which are currently available, and one can still buy at decent prices, plus a few 2014s which seem to be around the same overall level of quality, and look really cheap by comparison. I am still a buyer, and should be a target for the better 2017s, but why bother when so much good wine from better vintages is still available? For instance, I just picked up a case of magnums of Figeac 2015 for $1800. 2017 is inferior and more expensive. VCC 2014 arguably the wine of the the vintage available at $150 a bottle, why buy 2017 at $90 more a bottle?

I gather it is a small vintage, the top estates have done well with 2015 and 2016, and feel no pressure to sell. At these prices, the negotiants will be left with the vintage, and will find it hard to sell until the next great vintage comes, prices rise, and the 2017s begin to look well priced. It really is cycle that hurts the trade, but for once enough money was made from sales of 2015 and 2016 to offset the inevitable losses of 2017.

I am not surprised that 2017 Pavilon Blanc is so expensive; negotiants will have to purchase to keep allocations, but I wonder if it will find buyers after that.

[jckba]

I too have not tasted any 2017’s and fully agree with Mark’s take. And whether the exchange rate is partly to blame or not, I really don’t care as the wines are just too expensive as they currently sit, no pun intended

Alex, what is the general sentiment on the ground in Bdx regarding the pricing? Btw, I never really understood how I was able to buy a Bdx in the US for less than in France but I guess the 20% VAT is the main reason!

[greatbxfreak]

Mark,

Where from you have a price for VCC 2017??

I can't see it has come out.

The best offers of 2017 imho - La Lagune, Meyney, Calon Segur, Pichon Comtesse and Les Carmes Haut Brion.

[Chateau Vin]

2017s are coming out on the stateside for the past few days...

Notables include Mouton 485, pape clement 92, la lagune, branaire, pontet canet 110, LLC 200, lynch bages 100, Rauzan segla 75, pichon baron 130, pichon lalane 125, calon segur 105, montrose, cos, palmer, and pretty much almost all notables...

[stefan]

La Lagune for $105? Oh, no!

[Chateau Vin]

La Lagune for $105? Oh, no!

Stefan, it's 50. You might have looked at the magnum...

[jckba]

Using free Wine-Searcher in the good ol USA it’s btw $44.50 (Millesima) and $49.99 (K&L) per bottle and considering that I bought both the 2009 and 2010 for around $50, that’s not really enough of a discount for me to bite without having tasted the wine.

[DavidG]

You can see the change in attitude about en primeurs by looking at activity on the various wine boards. Years ago, there would be a daily breathless recap of the latest release prices. Several people would clamor to be first to report. Others would speculate as to how the ex-chateau prices would convert to retail prices in various markets - US, England, Australia, etc. There are still threads, but nowhere near the number or the intense interest.

It's not just that 2017 isn't another vintage of the century. Since the chateaux have taken most of the savings to the consumer out of the en primeur game, interest has waned. There really is no reason to buy most wines at this stage, unless you want them in large format.

[Musigny 151]

Mark,

Where from you have a price for VCC 2017??

I can't see it has come out.

The best offers of 2017 imho - La Lagune, Meyney, Calon Segur, Pichon Comtesse and Les Carmes Haut Brion.

You are right; for some reason I thought I saw that it had been released.

[Musigny 151]

You can see the change in attitude about en primeurs by looking at activity on the various wine boards. Years ago, there would be a daily breathless recap of the latest release prices. Several people would clamor to be first to report. Others would speculate as to how the ex-chateau prices would convert to retail prices in various markets - US, England, Australia, etc. There are still threads, but nowhere near the number or the intense interest.

It's not just that 2017 isn't another vintage of the century. Since the chateaux have taken most of the savings to the consumer out of the en primeur game, interest has waned. There really is no reason to buy most wines at this stage, unless you want them in large format.

There were some play for profit in the past, but that all came to a screeching halt with the 2005s. since then, the people who bought First Growth 2008s made money (and that only because came into the market then) but thereafter, the chances were you lost money. Buying a lesser vintage just means that you lose more money.

But it's all good for the top estates. The trade has to buy or lose allocations, so the chateaux are protected from the vagaries of the market place; luckily the merchants have deep pockets, and interest rates are low, so for the moment the model is hurting but still works. That may come apart if interest go up and demand for wine goes down.

[AKR]

Are the Russian and Chinese billionaires buying the 2017s?

[Racer Chris]

Wow, more futures prices from TW:
Lafite - $595
Haut Brion - $490
Haut Brion Blanc - $850
La Mission - $340
La Mission Blanc - $680

[AKR]

So I got K&L's vintage write up and preliminary offer sheets.

The one on paper had a couple pages from Ralph Sands, one of their long time specialists in the region.

It seemed to me he was pretty downbeat on it, suggesting that the time to buy these will be a decade from now, when they have had time to 'grow' into their prices.

This seemed to be what happened in 1997 and 2007 he suggested.

Perhaps there have been other cool summaries, but it was interesting to see a merchants take on it.

It seems to me that taking a discount on these to sell today is a better bet than implicitly bearing the capital costs to sit on these for a decade, even at a modest 2-3% capital cost each year.

Maybe the big estates don't really have better uses for their money, or they project much more prices rises for new releases, and the 2017's will tag along, drifting upwards.

I'm passing, in any case.