What is your red Bordeaux logic?

[Nicklasss]

Inspired by AlexR post on the 1996 Lynch and Mission.

I guess that even if red Bordeaux are my favorite wines, i have some preferences. When I'm thinking big data analysis (a present mood in every company) of what i found kind of best logic with red Bordeaux, i just get to:

Medium/excellent vinages + a 50 to 100 $ a bottle +15-20 years in the cellar & drink over 2 hours with friends/family and/or Bordeaux lovers = the best umami for me


Greater vintages are too expensive, need a longer wait, and the expectations are so hiiiiggghhhhhh... that sometimes kaput is the result.

Lighter vintage are ok, with the right price, but even if "agréable", far away from "émotion".

What about you?

Nic

[stefan]

You have a good formula, Nic.

[DavidG]

No logic.
No formula.
Just (often misguided) passion fueled by a gradually deteriorating memory.

[jckba]

I think I have the same general approach every year and that is to taste as much as possible (ie UGC) so that I can form my own opinion on the vintage followed by deciding which wines stood out, and then, putting my hard earned dollars to work in those wines. Pricing does get factored in to my buying decisions and I aim to buy at what I feel is the cheapest point and will end up passing and refusing to pay the uptick on wines that I missed out on (ie 2015 Canon).

[Racer Chris]

My Bordeaux logic:
I got a late start, beginning to drink Bordeaux when I was in my mid 50s, with only a small sample of well aged bottles and consuming them before I knew what makes it so special.

Therefore I began buying (and drinking) from recent vintages, starting with 2009/2010.
Within my budget I choose the highest quality and most liked wines, using Cellartracker data (and word of mouth) instead of Professional critic's scores and looking for maximum quality/price ratio.
Refining my palate as I go, I add to my cellar the wines I think will provide the most pleasure in the years to come, until I am ready to stop at 90 years old or beyond.
My plan is to stop buying new wines for aging after the 2016 vintage, and only purchase bottles intended for near term pleasure to be cellar defenders.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

An unopened bottle will never disappoint.

Have low expectations.

[marcs]

My Bordeaux logic:
I got a late start, beginning to drink Bordeaux when I was in my mid 50s, with only a small sample of well aged bottles and consuming them before I knew what makes it so special.

Therefore I began buying (and drinking) from recent vintages, starting with 2009/2010.
Within my budget I choose the highest quality and most liked wines, using Cellartracker data (and word of mouth) instead of Professional critic's scores and looking for maximum quality/price ratio.
Refining my palate as I go, I add to my cellar the wines I think will provide the most pleasure in the years to come, until I am ready to stop at 90 years old or beyond.
My plan is to stop buying new wines for aging after the 2016 vintage, and only purchase bottles intended for near term pleasure to be cellar defenders.

not to second-guess you, but I really don't understand why you wouldn't backfill in this situation. There is a ton of reasonably priced older Bordeaux available at auction and from retailers. It is true you will sometimes get misses in terms of storage quality, especially on wines more than 15-20 years old, but I have found a large majority of backfilled wines to be in at least good condition, sometimes excellent condition.

I was pretty resistant to backfilling from before the time I started collecting (with the 2000 vintage), but I started a lot younger than you. As I've gotten older I backfill more and more and it's worked out very well in general.

Given the price-age curve backfilling is I would say on net less expensive in terms of the quality-price ratio. At the high end especially, Bordeaux prices don't increase much with age and you save storage costs. At the lower end prices do increase more significantly with age -- a wine that is $25 on release can often be $50-70 with significant age -- but the quality increases enormously. Wines that are pretty meh when young can blossom spectacularly when older.

[Racer Chris]

not to second-guess you, but I really don't understand why you wouldn't backfill in this situation.

I don't mind.
Early on I set a couple of limitations. I have slowly relaxed my position recently but only because my income rose sharply in the last couple years.
One limitation is - no auctions.
Another is a 200 mile radius for purchasing, partly because Connecticut isn't an easy state to ship wine into.
I'm also not buying bottles of '86 Talbot, for instance, for a hundred something dollars when I can buy 2009 or 2010 for under $70, and 2014 for under $50.
However, I have paid $36 for 2003 Ch. Potensac in the last couple years, because it was available from my FLWS which purchased it on release.
Besides, I figure I have 30 years of good wine drinking ahead of me. The 2010s will be ready before that.

[Nicklasss]

A very good Bordeaux logic: avoid the 2017, at these prices.

Nic

[dstgolf]

Rioja is the place to explore at the moment. Bordeaux has priced itself off the market. Yes for those that can backfill I agree 100% and RC there is nothing better than drinking a great bottle of Bordeaux at its peak! Even those supermarket class ugly ducklings like the 2000 Larrivet Haut-Brion that I talked about was not expensive on release and man was it good now at its prime. Most on this board have enjoyed many many well aged/stored bottles and I'm sure they would agree that drinking a great potential bottle too young is infanticide and our leader of the pack bless his soul is famous for this but he also has a fabulous palate sensitizing us to a great young wines potential and I'm grateful for his continued drinking of wines before their time. There is nothing better than sharing a beautifully aged Bordeaux with like minded passionate wine lovers as we've done time and time again. I suggest buying a few older wines even at a premium price if you haven't had the experience or attend a BWE convention and find the love!!

[JimHow]

Bob Parker, Alex Rychlewski, and I enjoy our Bordeaux in earlier timeframes than you, Danny.
I am honored to be in such august company.

[Frederico]

Rioja is the place to explore at the moment. Bordeaux has priced itself off the market ...

Ah, Rioja! That's what I'm heading into. Any Rioja that are comparable to superb quality Bordeaux? I find a 2009 Castillo Ygay for $90 Cdn ($70US). Any one tried it?

[William P]

My Bordeaux logic is based on the premise that statistically I'm closer to checking out than many of you. The longer the life of a Bordeaux the more expensive and longer it must be cellared to hit the sweet years. So those vintages structured like 1986, 1996, 2005, 2010 are not for me. I love them but they are not going to be part of the Partmann inheritance plan. Also, I'm retired and while I have my nest egg in place, spending $10,000.00 a year on wines that will be ready in 20 years is not logical. I'm looking for value in good years but not super years. I bought some 2012 and 2014. I hoping that the majority of these wines will be ready in 5-7 years. Yes, "ready" is a subjective term.

I will review 2015 and probably buy less than a case. Sadly old friends like Pichon Lalande, Baron, LB, Cos and Montrose are off the list even in middling years.

Luckily, living in California I have access to some very nice, readily accessible reds for immediate gratification (this includes Oregon Pinots). True they never match the heights of Bordeaux but that's life. Yes, I know, I've become the old geezer down the lane yelling get off my vines.

Bill

[JimHow]

Well said, counselor. Wise words indeed.
Even I, Jim "Drink 'em Young" How have dramatically slowed my purchases.

[stefan]

Still working full time at seven years past full social security retirement age, I don't mind spending five figures a year on wine. OTOH, I have no reason to do so and certainly do not buy Bordeaux that won't be ready to drink for 15-20 years. It is a pain to get older Bordeaux delivered because of Texas laws, so I mostly buy older ones to drink with my children in Oregon and California to avoid having to carry too many bottles from home (19 is my absolute limit after some trouble I had carting 24 and I try to keep it at 12) and to drink when I am away from home for a long time. I do buy and drink some younger classified Bordeaux in honor of Jim How, but not the big guns, and a few bottles of finer young Bordeaux just to get a sense of what the great estates are doing now, but not first or super second growths.

Bill, currently Lucie and I drink more Oregon PN than Bordeaux.

[Gerry M.]

At the age of 58 I've decided that 2016 was my last year for futures and I'm only looking to backfill selectively. I've had good results with Skinner auctions in Boston and can pick up wines without having to deal with shipping. I'm also planning on dropping my last two Cali mailing lists, Ridge Monte Bello and Ch Montelena.

[marcs]

At 50 2016 is my last new vintage, and I got only 8 bottles of that. But I will say that I have been buying a lot more bottles of recent vintages than I ever thought I would. It seems to me we are currently in a golden era of affordable Bordeaux. There are so many good wines available at reasonable prices from the 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2015 vintages that I can't keep up, and that's before getting into other solid vintages available at bargain prices such as 2008. I should start a new thread to explore this further.

Rioja is the place to explore at the moment. Bordeaux has priced itself off the market.

Bordeaux has absolutely not priced itself off the market. A good Rioja such as say the La Rioja Alta Gran Riserva 904 is about $50/bottle on release. There are a ton of very good Bordeaux available for that price or less and the range of styles available in Bordeaux is of course far greater than Rioja. If you really think you can't find an excellent Bordeaux for $50 or less you just haven't been trying. (Or you are stuck in an over-regulated and over-priced market in which case my sympathies).

Bottom line for me is that I like Bordeaux better than Rioja -- I can't get over the tart almost sour finish of Rioja and the vague sensation of lack of midpalate depth, even though they are attractive wines in many ways. So for me Bordeaux has a much better price-quality ratio than Rioja.

[DavidG]

My palate aligns with yours Marcus when it comes to Rioja, but there have been a few old ones that have been ethereal. I’m not in a position to start with them.

At 62 and retired I’m closer to Bill's position than yours. 2016 was my last Bordeaux vintage. I went in for 2 cases. Think I have enough in the pipeline to go the duration but who knows? Not spending big bucks on wine any more but able to buy a little here and there if needed to fill in. My palate may shift to needing fruit bombs before the Bordeaux runs out, but I worry little about that.

[stefan]

Yeah, I notice the shift toward fruit, David, but the change is slow. Maybe when I am 90 I will be able to drink some of the wines like those that the BD says are perfect now.

[Tom In DC]

At 50 2016 is my last new vintage...

Bwahahahahaha.

[Claudius2]

Folks
Funny how this thread has become a testament to old age.....
Well, I'm in my early 60's now and still quite fit despite various inherited and accidental health problems. And I annoy the millennials in the gym by lifting more weight than they can. Luckily health issues don't stop me from drinking wine but they DO limit how much I can drink without needing another MRI.

I bought several cases of 2016's en primeur but I only ordered wines that I thought I could drink in say, 2026-2031.
That would allow me to drink happily in my early 70's but seriously, I am never again buying indent wines that require long ageing.

So I now have a simple strategy.
Firstly, I really see little point in drinking very old wines. No I am not being critical of those loving the style (like Francois if he is still with us) but I think that most good Bordeaux hit a sweet spot in 10-15 yrs.
Okay, Latour and a few others demand 20+ years but I am not buying any wines that will outlive me and I don't want to be buried with them.

Next point is that as I get older, I seem to like St Emilion more and more.
Maybe the romance of visiting the lovely old town and the friendly people is part of it, but St E has gone through a lot of change over the decades I've been drinking wine,and provided they balance the oak, they are delightful wines with around 10-12 yrs ageing. 2005 is now starting to open up and they sing in the glass (as do the many Medocs).

Now I'm living in Singapore, the hot, balmy weather never eases, and fuller bodied reds are not as good to drink as they are in cooler climates.
Drinking red wine here in open spaces is impossible. Even at 11 pm, it is 30 degrees C (86F) and fuller wines end up going from 12-13 degrees (about 55F) in my wine fridges to 30 degrees in a short time. Ugh.
Yes, they are all temp controlled and the apartment is air conditioned, but Burgundy is my house wine these days along with a lot of Champagne.
So I only open fuller red styles maybe once a week or fortnight, and imbibe on red and white Burgundy, Champagne and Australian wines (chardy, riesling and cabs) most of the time.
My offsite storage unit is however overloaded with Bordeaux mainly from 2005, 2009 and 2010. There are some older vintages as well but not in the same volume.
I will try the 2005's over the next few yrs and leave the 09's and 10's for at least 5 years.

When I travel in Europe (there for 3 weeks last month) I guzzle NV Champagne, Rioja, Chianti Classico, Brunellos, right bank Bordeaux and the occasional left bank wine is I can find well stored back vintages.
Generally don't drink Burgundy simply as I drink a lot of it in Singapore.
What I don't get about France is that restaurants (okay, not the Michelin hatted places but the bistros and al fresco places) often sell recent vintages of classed growths that are years away from being close to ready.

[stefan]

>>
Drinking red wine here in open spaces is impossible. Even at 11 pm, it is 30 degrees C (86F) and fuller wines end up going from 12-13 degrees (about 55F) in my wine fridges to 30 degrees in a short time. Ugh.
>>

Here also the temperature at 11 PM is often in the mid 80s or higher. When I take bottles outside in the summer I use frozen wine sleeves to keep the temperature proper.

[Comte Flaneur]

We have been having a heat wave in London for a month. Typically it has got up to 85-90F during the day, and because we don’t have air conditioning our houses are very hot inside so the sleeves come in very handy.

I have resisted the temptation to buy any 2017s. I can’t even recall having bought any 2014s, but I bought a quite a lot of 15s and a shed load of 16s.

I am in my mid-50s and am very bullish about the 2017s simply because of the way the wine making philosophy is evolving. In exactly the right way.

If I buy young wines going forward it will be as much as possible in half bottle format. My friend Rainer who lives in Düsseldorf and must be in his late 50s mainly buys in halves.

He keeps buying loads in every vintage because he likens it to planting trees for his future generations. So...if you are looking for an excuse, and the ‘trouble’n’strife’ is giving you grief...it is a nice alibi.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

>>
Drinking red wine here in open spaces is impossible. Even at 11 pm, it is 30 degrees C (86F) and fuller wines end up going from 12-13 degrees (about 55F) in my wine fridges to 30 degrees in a short time. Ugh.
>>

Here also the temperature at 11 PM is often in the mid 80s or higher. When I take bottles outside in the summer I use frozen wine sleeves to keep the temperature proper.

I am, with nary an exception, done drinking for at least three hours at 11 pm and usually asleep too so this is not a concern of mine.

[Claudius2]

Aloha,
It is an exception that I drink wine at 11 pm.
Possibly with friends over a late dinner on Saturday from time to time.

Yet my comment is that hot weather is the curse of red wine lovers.
Typical max temp in Singapore is at least 90 degrees F and regularly 95F.
So at 9 om, it is still over 30 C (86F) and rarely gets much lower.
Even worse, it is 99% humidity in the evening and you can often see the water fall out of the air due to condensation with only a small fall in temp.

In Australia, I lived on an elevated block over the Georges River (Sydney) and at night, the river breezes cooled the place down.
So I could open a bottle after sunset and enjoy it.

Having said that, I got sick of living in Sydney.
It is complicated but I wanted a change and after nearly 9 yrs here, I actually prefer Singapore.
I don't have a plan to move. My superannuation is available in 4 yrs and we may move to Europe for a change.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I hear you. Temps in Hawaii may be ideal for humans but it's too warm by ten degrees F for wine. But suffer we must.

[AKR]

And I don't think its getting any cooler anywhere. The trendlines are all ugly.

This summer, since its so hot locally, the wife/kids/dog decamped for a month to the Oregon/Washington coast.

(I fly up every other wknd)

It's about 30F-40F cooler there than here, which is a stunning differential.

I just hop in the pool whenever it gets so hot, even if its just for 5-10 min.

Beaujolais is also quite helpful when its warm.

[felixp21]

Firstly, I like to buy lesser wines from excellent vintages.... IMO these provide unbelievable quality drinking in the given price range. A great example is the 2000 Fleur de Bouard (back in those days, a far, far cheaper wine than it is now). This wine is now "a point" and is just a superb right-bank example. At a recent tasting, it was shoved in amongst several 2007's and 2013's classified growths and top right bankers, and it was in the best three wines of the night.

Secondly, I NEVER buy wines from dud vintages (2013, 1991, 1992 for example) as they do not provide good QPR in my opinion.

Thirdly, I back fill top wines from previous top vintages.... rarely are they more than 30-40% above what they originally sold at en primeur. If you are of an accounting mindset, the Net Present Value of these wines outstrips almost all current releases, almost always. A purchase of a case of 2010 Cos d'Estournel last year at USD $155 is a very good example of that.

Fourthly, I am always sniffing Bordeaux and Burgundy at the countless auctions... now, when is the next Global Financial Crisis, I'll get my Credit Card ready

[Claudius2]

Arvind
These days, my go to wine for hot days (and I see lots of them) in Champagne.
I am quite happy with a good NV like Billecart, Bollinger, Perrier Jouet, Veuve Fourny, Gosset, Roederer, whatever.

felixp21
My buying these days is similar - I buy the mid ranked wines from good vintages.
I simply want to drink them and there are plenty of good buys to be had - though the 2017 prices are rather high now.
If you buy from auction, you DO need to check the provenance of the wines.
I am very careful and the auction houses these days seem happy to answer my questions.