2015 La Croix Ducru-Beaucaillou

[Nicklasss]

The reviews are positives for that second wine of Ducru Beaucaillou. I will open a bottle to try with my brother tonight. Will put it in the decanter in 15 minutes. Let's see what it has.

Nic

[JimHow]

I wish I could afford to drink the Ducru first label.
I have one bottle, the 1995, in my cellar, plus a couple half bottles of the 2000.
I have never drunk La Croix since I was so disappointed by the '96.

[Nicklasss]

My brother just decanted a 2015 Margaux, the Blason d'Issan, to compare.

You're right Jim, this will be more and more my reality as the Crus Classés are becoming out of my range too.

But I guess the second labels are better than ever now?

Nic

[JimHow]

I really have my eye on the 2016 Dame de Montrose, it seems to be getting rave reviews and the price is not crazy.

[jckba]

I hear you; escalating pricing for the classed growths is a real drag but it is a reality and a storyline that continues to repeat itself ... so which 2015 deuxieme vin reigned supreme last night, the La Croix or the Blason?

[Nicklasss]

Last night, the 2015 Blason d'Issan and La Croix Ducru-Beaucaillou were very good wines. But as good as they were, it is clear the second label will never be equal to the first, and I guess it is not the intent.

The 2015 Blason d'Issan was very perfumed, like all the Margaux I had from that 2015 vintage, with lot of Margauxberries, mint, soft sweet oak vanillin, more fruit. In mouth, a seducing mouthfeel, ripe, with good fruits, spices, cinnamon, maybe something more auster too like leather flavors. But at the end, what is missing to that wine, it is a bit more structure, more backbone, more tannins. The wine isn't that long. So very good. Tn: 89.

The 2015 La Croix Ducru-Beaucaillou is a darker red wine, with great red fruits, a bit of blackcurrants, something vegetal like green peppers, and some minerality aromas. Sappy attack, ripe, with very ripe strawberries flavors, red berries, very ligth blackfruit flavors. Even a bit more concentration than the Margaux, with integrated oak spices and a decent long fruity final. But like the second label from d'Issan, there is not alot of tannins or structure, making the wine softer than you would like too. Good flavors, a pleasant wine, but I would say drink in the next 10 years. Tn: 89-90.

I don't know if it is the second label, or the mix second label + 2015 vintage, but clearly these two wines are fun to drink, but don't expect to be moved too much. Both have been decanted 2-3 hours to give them a chance, due to their youg ages. It is clear to me that the 2015 Siran or Brane Cantenac, while from the same vintage, have more tannins and structure that add to the whole impression.

Nic

[JimHow]

Not exactly making me want to go out and buy some La Croix Ducru-Beaucaillou.
Sounds like a supermarket wine to me.

[Nicklasss]

Not a supermarket wine, but surely not worth the price. Like Comte Flaneur would say "missing some grip".

I paid it with points from my fidelity card so did not really paid directly for it.

Nic

[jckba]

My general sentiment towards second wines is that they make sense at cru bourgeois like price levels of say $20-$30 but past that, I kind of feel that they lose their value proposition.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

How often are seconds really like the "little brother or sister," or at least show some of the hallmarks, of the grand vin? I ask because where, for example, Calon Segur is typically 70% cabernet, the Marquis de Calon is, or has been in recent vintages, 80% merlot.

If they show some characteristics of the grand vin then I can see paying a slight premium to a comparable quality cru bourgeois, for instance, but otherwise not.

[Racer Chris]

My general sentiment towards second wines is that they make sense at cru bourgeois like price levels of say $20-$30 but past that, I kind of feel that they lose their value proposition.

That may be a fair general assessment, but there are exceptions.
Here's my list of "second wines" consumed in the last couple years:
2014 La Croix is a wine well worthy of it's higher pricetag ($45).
2010 La Dame de Montrose is outstanding ($54).
2014 La Dame is well priced at $36.
2014 Pagodes de Cos - I paid $40 for a bottle, enjoyed it - and went back for more.
The 2015 Sarget de Gruaud Larose I had recently was fairly priced in the mid 20's.
I've had a couple bottles of 2012 Reserve de la Comtesse, which I would happily add more to my cellar at $30-35.
2012 Segla - a nice wine but rather overpriced at my price - $45.
2009 Moulin de Duhart - I paid about $50 in 2018 for well stored bottles. A bit steep maybe but - Pauillac. And its an excellent wine.

[felixp21]

Alter Ego can be fabulous in good vintages, and well worth the price. At it's best, it is a pretty good reflection of the style of Palmer, and represents decent value. Both the 2009 and 2010 are drinking beautifully now.
Moulin de Duhart is another very good second wine, as is Conseillante's Duo.

However, I would agree in general that most second wines, particularly those of the FG's, represent poor value. (don't get me started on Les Forts!!!!!!!)

[AKR]

I drank up a case of the 2000 La Croix D-B, when younger. It lasted way longer than I would have expected, in the sense of keeping its youthful primacy.

My sentiments around pricing is the same as jckba.

These all trade too much off their label and name.

[Nicklasss]

Effectively, after tasting these two 2015, i agree that price is a problem.

Last night, opened a 2009 Chateau Cantemerle that was just too good compared to those two second label. I will report in another post.

Nic

[JeanFred]

i will always remember a article from RVF - Revue des vins de France who compare the second wines to the Crus Bourgeois and by far the CB are a better Q/P than the second wine.

And from this article, except a few bottles, I always prefer to buy good Crus Bourgeois ...

Jean-Fred

[Nicklasss]

I bought the second label of Ducru due to good ratings on Cellartracker...

Not a bad wine, but surely not a 93 points wine, and surely not a q/p positive ratio.

But, wine is a journey.

Nic

[felixp21]

I was interested to see Neal Martin's take on 2009 ten years on. He scored (blind) the 2009 Alter Ego higher than the Grand Vin, something I entirely agree with. As I said above, most second wines are pretty over-rated and expensive, but Alter Ego continues to astound.

[marcs]

There are so many good classed growth first wines out there in the $40-60 range I don’t understand why people drink seconds.

[robert goulet]

2012 croix beaucaillou last year was a phenomenal revelation...hell I may have liked it more than big brother!!

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I was interested to see Neal Martin's take on 2009 ten years on. He scored (blind) the 2009 Alter Ego higher than the Grand Vin, something I entirely agree with. As I said above, most second wines are pretty over-rated and expensive, but Alter Ego continues to astound.

I don't see how a second wine could "score" higher than the first. What is he scoring? How much he likes the wine or how good it is?

[jckba]

I am not quite sure that the classification of Alter Ego as a second wine is technically even correct being that it is more a second label then second wine as it stems from grapes from different plots of land than the Grand Vin. That said, the Alter Ego also trades in a similar price range as a number of classified growth Margaux’s such as Giscours, d’Issan and Brane Cantenac but if you are saying that it can reach these heights, then perhaps it’s price point has merit.

[JimHow]

I don't see how a second wine could "score" higher than the first. What is he scoring? How much he likes the wine or how good it is?

Interesting observation.
When we were at Chateau Margaux in 2015 we had both the first and second labels from 2004.
Both were absolutely stunning. Indeed, I may have even liked the second label just a hair more.

[felixp21]

How can a second wine score higher? Well, it was tasted BLIND, so it clearly can score higher!!! In addition, see jcba's excellent response, which is quite correct. I guess it is a bit like Clos de Marquis and LLC, except that the GV is always better with that estate.
I have had the 09 Palmer and Alter Ego side-by-side several times, and have preferred the Alter Ego every time.
I suspect in 10 years, the better wine (by far) will be the Palmer, but currently, the second wine is a better drink.

Jim, I fully understand your response!!! I was at a Margaux tasting a few years ago, and the 2000 Margaux and Pavillon were side-by-side. I much preferred the Pavillon. (the 2000 Pavillon has a very high merlot content, and is quite sublime that vintage. IIRC, PP said they should have made a higher percentage of merlot in the GV that vintage, as those grapes were absolutely outstanding.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

These responses seem quite corrosive to the credibility of the numerical scoring system--or maybe the system is fine and the market is wrong. And I grant you that an "alter ego" is not the same as a diminutive.

[JCNorthway]

I suspect that part of what we are dealing with here is that the "seconds" or lesser wines will drink better at a younger age while the bigger wines need more time to hit their best drinking. If you compare these wines at 20 or 30 years rather than 5 or 10, I imagine the results could be quite different.

[robert goulet]

I was interested to see Neal Martin's take on 2009 ten years on. He scored (blind) the 2009 Alter Ego higher than the Grand Vin, something I entirely agree with. As I said above, most second wines are pretty over-rated and expensive, but Alter Ego continues to astound.

I don't see how a second wine could "score" higher than the first. What is he scoring? How much he likes the wine or how good it is?

2001 bahan haut brion is my fav haut brion...yep including big brother

Same goes for '04 alter ego...I liked it much btr than the big bro