This or that 2009? Poyferre vs Pape Clement?

[Frederico]

I'm recently offered an chance to buy either one of the two. Knowing both earned 100 points from wine critics, which one will be better if I want ti open one in 5-year time? What are the differences in taste and style? Price-wise, Poyferre is only 50 Cdn more.

[Nicklasss]

Hi Frederico. I did not tried the Pessac, but this what i wrote on the Saint Julien, mid-2017:

2009 Chateau Léoville Poyferré last Saturday was just a not far from brilliant young Saint-Julien. It was having everything I like in Médoc red: intensity and definition on the nose, complexity in mouth, balance, oak hidding in the rest, graphite, meat, fruits, spices, oak, light roasted something, structure, length... An impressive young wine now, that will be even more impressive in 10-15 years.

It is a great wine but on all the young 2009 i tried, i preferred a little bit more Pichon Baron and Pontet Canet.

Nic

[JimHow]

Didn’t we have the 2009 at Leoville Poyferre when we visited in 2015?
It was at the end of that long first day but I think we thought the young Poyferres weren’t wowing is at that point.

[Nicklasss]

No Jim, we didn't had the 2009 at the Chateau.

Here is what I wrote then: The dinner was excellent with different dishes of quail, veal, cheese and dessert. of course we had a few Chateau Léoville Poyferré including 2012, 2008, 2006, 2007, 2005 and 2003.

Nic

[JimHow]

I could have sworn they pulled out the 2009 during the dinner. Maybe not.

[dstgolf]

Jim/Nic,

I initially thought Jim was correct but confused LP with SHL where we did have the 2009 served up. Nic was right on with the lineup.

Frederico,

For my taste I've never been a big fan of Leoville P. I find it on the modernistic style with heavy fruit extraction and oak. Not your classic Pauillac and someone must enjoy the style but to me it's the most Californian of the classified growths. Pape Clement still maintains a more typical Pessac pleasure if you like the leather/tobacco/cassis notes of the region which I'm loving more and more as my palate fluctuates between enjoying the classic Bordeaux nuances of old school Pessac and the subtleties of Pauillac graphite/cedar and brambly fruit. For me hands down Pape Clement even if I haven't tried either in this vintage and especially if the LP is $50cdn more!!

[JimHow]

You are right Danny it was at SHL that they pulled out the 2009.

[Nicklasss]

Yes, SHL got us some 2009 late in the dinner. What a treat!

Nic

[marcs]

I recently went to a big Leoville Poyferre vertical and basically had the same impression as dstgolf above — the vertical made clear that it is often a clumsy, overextracted, and oaky wine. I specifically did not like the 2009 which I found mediocre despite the reputation. I was actually quite surprised by that given the reviews. Of course I had only a limited pour and YMMV

[Musigny 151]

I recently went to a big Leoville Poyferre vertical and basically had the same impression as dstgolf above — the vertical made clear that its often a clumsy, overextracted, and oaky wine. I specifically did not like the 2009 which I found mediocre despite the reputation. I was actually quite surprised by that given the reviews. Of course I had only a limited pour and YMMV

This. But Pape Clement '09 is worse.

Both are in the highly extracted modern style. To be honest, neither are to my taste, but as you have noted, they certainly appeal to some, including critics.You may like them more than I do, but if your palate tends more to classic Bordeaux, I would keep away.

Plenty of less extreme alternatives around, although I am not sure what is available in Canada.

[Frederico]

This. But Pape Clement '09 is worse.

Both are in the highly extracted modern style. To be honest, neither are to my taste, but as you have noted, they certainly appeal to some, including critics.You may like them more than I do, but if your palate tends more to classic Bordeaux, I would keep away.

Plenty of less extreme alternatives around, although I am not sure what is available in Canada.

Any good alternatives or suggestions?

[jckba]

I own both of these wines and agree with Musigny 151’s take 100%.

If you want more classic and traditional wines coming from these appellations, I’d trade the Poyferre for the Barton and the Pape for the Haut Bailly and in doing so, I think you will ultimately be better off regardless of your palate preference.

[Nicklasss]

The 2009 Chateau Léoville Poyferré is a very good example of what this estate can produce, in a ripe Saint Julien style, still undissociable to great red Bordeaux. Is it a 100 points? I don't think so for now, and don't think so for the future. But it will surely dance between 94 and 97 points. It is the best wine from that estate I had, post 1990, and I had the 1995, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2009.

To me, it will age gracefully because of the complexity and balance it has, with some power, but not that much for a 2009.

Talking about critics, everyone rated this wine between 95 and 100 points, and 18 for Jancis Robinson, critics with very different palates...

I find it tough that Léoville Poyferré suffer some "snobery", a bit like Rauzan Ségla and Brane Cantenac (all for different reasons) in the second Growth, while they are great wines in their style. Can you name a bad Poyferré since the early 80's, for vintages that are medium to great? Rauzan Ségla ability to age for a Margaux is impressive, becoming the best it is after 20-25 years. Brane Cantenac has always been a suprimely elegant wine. Everybody are stupefied by LLC, Léo Barton, Ducru Beaucaillou, Gruaud Larose, Cos, Montrose and the two Pichons (Ok Rauzan Gassies and Durfort-Vivens are in another slightly lower class), but:

-LLC has many detractors, even here on BWE.
-Léo Barton is always classic and excellent, but does it really go over 94-95 points that often?
-Ducru Beaucaillou's Calvary second half of 80's, bizarre 2001?
-Gruaud Larose lost the faith of Mr. Parker after 1990.
-Cos is the modern concentrated exotic spices iconic of red Bordeaux, even if different from all other Left Bank wines?
-Montrose and the Pichon are probably the most conscensual Second Growth, even if they have some misses (some wines in the 80's for Montrose, 90 and 05 seem a bit controversial for Pichon Comtesse, ok I can't find anything against Pichon Baron).

And Léoville Poyferré is the only red Bordeaux with two (not one, YES TWO!) BWE WOTY awards.

So looking at all that, I guess Léoville Poyferré in a whole, and surely the 2009, merrits some recognition for what is it: a solid fruity, ripe, complex, long aging, Saint Julien.

I liked the 2009 the only time I had it. It is a lonely sample, it doesn't built a strong case, but believe me, I'm looking to try it again for sure in the future.

Nic

[stefan]

The most recent vintages I have drunk (as opposed to just tasting) are 2002 Pape Clement and 2003 Leoville-Poyferre, both of which I thought were in the modern style while still true to their terroirs. Is the 2009 more "modern" than these?

BTW, I like Poyferre, but I prefer Barton to it in almost every vintage in which I have drunk both a few times.

[Blanquito]

Total thread drift, but 1990-earlier I much prefer L. Poyferre. 1995-present I much prefer L. Barton.

[jckba]

Nic, have you tasted the 2010 Leoville Poyferre? As for my palate that is the best young Poyferre I have come across thus far.

[robert goulet]

Orlando Bobby and I popped the '03 poyferre last yr....was not a good bottle of wine...wasn't a bad bottle...just not good...clunky, disjointed, a bit heavy....'06 we had recently is much btr....nothing fancy but a solid bordeaux that revealed its charms the further the night went on

[marcs]

Of course I only had half a glass of it at a vertical tasting, but I didn't like the 2009 even compared to the other Poyferres. My experience at that tasting was that Poyferre did best in tannic, robust vintages. That was the only vertical I have ever been at where I preferred the 2010 to the 2009, the tannic quality of 2010 cut against the overdone elements of the chateau style. I preferred the 2000, 2002, 2005, 2010 to the 2009. Maybe even the 2006.

[Tom In DC]

Total thread drift, but 1990-earlier I much prefer L. Poyferre. 1995-present I much prefer L. Barton.

Interesting. I always found Leo-P to be pretty mediocre through the 70's and most of the 80's and thought Leo-B was performing very well over the same period.

[Blanquito]

I think the 82, 83, 85, 89 and 90 Poyferres are all great. I've really enjoyed multiple bottles of Poyferre in these vintages over the last 5-7 years (not really having them before that). Maybe the 86 too, but it's been a long time since I've had it. Meanwhile, I've had little luck with Barton from the 80s.

I've not had much of either chateau from before 1982, so I am just talking about the 82-90 vs 95-present.

The only Bartons that might give the Poyferres a run for their money from 82-90 for my mileage are the 1990 (though I do think the Poyferre is better) and maybe the 1986.

Which Bartons (if any) do you like better from 82-90, Tom and BWE?


1995-present, I pretty consistently prefer Barton, though the 2000 Poyferre is terrific and may be better than the 2000 Barton. I've found the 95 Poyferre pretty dull and I've had several underwhelming bottles of the 96 Poyferre through the years (though I hear the good bottles are excellent).

Since 2003, Poyferre is generally is not my style, while Barton has gone from strength to strength.

[johnz]

I've had the 1985 Leoville Barton at least 6 times in the last 12 years and it has been outstanding, and much better IMO than Poyferre. With the exception of '85 though I'd agree that Poyferre in the 80s -1990 is probably better. Don't miss that '85LB.

--Gary Rust

[Nicklasss]

Jckba, i never had the 2010 or younger vintage, but I believe you about the 2010 and I guess me too could probably prefer it to the 2009.

Bizarrely, i tried to remember, but i guess i did not had Léoville Barton so often. I can remember the 1978, 1982, 1986 (that lost a blind tasting vs the 85 GPL in Napa 02), 2003, 2012 and 2015.

I'm with Blanquito, liking the 80's Léo Poyferré. But the 00's semm excellent to me too. Maybe a small flat in the 90's.

Nic

[robert goulet]

2010 on release was a fairly open knit new world style.
That and Pape Clement...both open, exotic and sexy...fantastic for that style, but not my personal bordeaux preference

[Tom In DC]

...
Which Bartons (if any) do you like better from 82-90, Tom and BWE?
...

82 was a great vintage for Leo-P, and I think 89 and 90 are vintages where Leo-B and -P were of comparable quality, albeit very different stylistically. I give the rest of the vintages of the 80's to Leo-B on my card.

[Musigny 151]

This. But Pape Clement '09 is worse.

Both are in the highly extracted modern style. To be honest, neither are to my taste, but as you have noted, they certainly appeal to some, including critics.You may like them more than I do, but if your palate tends more to classic Bordeaux, I would keep away.

Plenty of less extreme alternatives around, although I am not sure what is available in Canada.

Any good alternatives or suggestions?

A few. All of them, with the exception of the Barton I have tasted recently. They will all fit your five year time line beautifully.

2010 Margaux are worth looking into as a class.


Haut Bailly 2008
Beychevelle 2010
Leoville Barton 2009
Rauzan Segla 2000, 2005 and 2010
D'issan 2005, 2006 and 2010
Giscours 2010 (perhaps the best wine they have ever made)
Palmer alter ego 2010 (ditto: I am usually skeptical about second wines, this was excellent. And if you feel like really splashing 2010 Palmer is for me, the best Medoc non First Growth this century)
Branaire 2005

And if you are prepared to deal with the auction market 1970 Giscours. If you do, make sure you talk to the director about provenance and condition etc.