From the famous song of Sheryl Crow.
Which Chateau would you consider the most improved in the last 10-11 years (2008 to 2018)?
Some contestants:
Carmes Haut Brion
Haut Bailly
Prieuré Lichine
Cantenac Brown
Pichon Baron (now just a hair behind the Firsts?)
Canon
Petit Village
Calon Segur
Angélus (well, it is now a Premier Cru today)
Vieux Chateau Certan
Others?
Nic
"I think a change, would do you good"
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
Nic,
I'm a lover of the Baron but their pricing continues to climb with quality. Canon echoes that.
For QPR Tour Saint Christophe has been outstanding since Peter Kwok took over and gets my vote. Prices continue to rise but quality is certainly there. His other wineries La Patache-pomerol, Bellefont-Belcier and Haut-Brisson a tad more expensive but showing the same attention to quality and pricing punching above their peers at the same price. His stable are super value.
I'm a lover of the Baron but their pricing continues to climb with quality. Canon echoes that.
For QPR Tour Saint Christophe has been outstanding since Peter Kwok took over and gets my vote. Prices continue to rise but quality is certainly there. His other wineries La Patache-pomerol, Bellefont-Belcier and Haut-Brisson a tad more expensive but showing the same attention to quality and pricing punching above their peers at the same price. His stable are super value.
Danny
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
Pichon Baron's improvement dates back 20 or more years, not ten. Suspect the same for some others you mention but don't know them as well.
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OrlandoRobert
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Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
Well, there is quite a difference between the two notions of “change” and “improvement” - and they can be mutually exclusive. Some of these wineries have actually changed - new ownership, new modern consultants, changes in cepage, and in winemaking techniques. Les Carmes Haut Brion, for example, has had all of those “changes”. It was once a sleeper favorite of mine, with its dusty, red-fruit, elegant, earthy profile. It is now “modern” and garnering monster scores from all the hyping critics. I liked 2014, but I suspect its degree of modernistic showing was saved by the classic vintage. I bought 2016 out of curiosity, but limited. I did not buy 2015 and am not buying any more until I see where this once-favorite Chateau of mine has gone, whether as I suspect, it has left me and gone rogue, to the dark side.
In response to your broader question, I would say Haut Bailly and VCC. Haut Bailly has been killing it since 2005, not that it was a slouch before, however. And it has such history and pedigree. I had a lovely 1947 at Bern’s several years ago. And VCC is best of class these days, though I prefer the Cab Franc years of that Chateau. It’s just out of my price class with new releases at or around $300.
In response to your broader question, I would say Haut Bailly and VCC. Haut Bailly has been killing it since 2005, not that it was a slouch before, however. And it has such history and pedigree. I had a lovely 1947 at Bern’s several years ago. And VCC is best of class these days, though I prefer the Cab Franc years of that Chateau. It’s just out of my price class with new releases at or around $300.
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
Agree with Haut Bailly.
I’ve liked Prieure Lichine since I got into wine in the early 80s. They dipped and have come back but not sure I’d say it’s a quantum leap.
Pichon Baron and Canon have been great for a long time. Canon is pushing ripeness and concentration which for many is a step up but for some may be excessive. I think the 2015 will bring the magic with time.
Angelus may be an example of the Oracle of Orlando's observation that change, even if popularly lauded, may not be for the better. Some of the characteristics I loved it for 30 years ago have been dialed up to the point where it’s just too much. The 2009 was really sweet and oaky, so it was the last vintage I bought. I’ll Blanquito them in hopes it will start to develop but I’m not holding my breath.
I’ve liked Prieure Lichine since I got into wine in the early 80s. They dipped and have come back but not sure I’d say it’s a quantum leap.
Pichon Baron and Canon have been great for a long time. Canon is pushing ripeness and concentration which for many is a step up but for some may be excessive. I think the 2015 will bring the magic with time.
Angelus may be an example of the Oracle of Orlando's observation that change, even if popularly lauded, may not be for the better. Some of the characteristics I loved it for 30 years ago have been dialed up to the point where it’s just too much. The 2009 was really sweet and oaky, so it was the last vintage I bought. I’ll Blanquito them in hopes it will start to develop but I’m not holding my breath.
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JimHow
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Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
As I mentioned in another thread....
Nicola and I were in MacArthur's this past Saturday afternoon.
We were talking to Phil Bernstein, the Bordeaux guy there.
we were talking about the state of Bordeaux.
At one point Nicola was holding an overpriced 2015 GPL in his hand.
"Now there is a wine that has returned," Phil said. "The daughter has taken over management of the property."
Apparently she holds some political position of authority in Pauillac.
And then he said:
"For many years, Grand Puy Lacoste has underperformed its terroir."
Yes. Yes, Phil. I hear what you are saying. I've been trying to tell that to a group for about two decades now, notwithstanding the sheep mentality from cellartracker and elsewhere....
Encouragingly, he seems to think the very recent vintages of GPL have rebounded under the direction of the daughter.
As I have said here before, I like the 2014. Maybe we are in for a GPL renaissance! Have not tried the '15 and '16.
But at least SOMEBODY out there has seen what I have seen... For the past 30 years, at least, Grand Puy Lacoste has been a supermarket level wine.
The '05, '09 and '10 are swill, in great Pauillac vintages.
Hopefully "the daughter" can bring it back around and realize the potential of that Pauillac terroir.
Nicola and I were in MacArthur's this past Saturday afternoon.
We were talking to Phil Bernstein, the Bordeaux guy there.
we were talking about the state of Bordeaux.
At one point Nicola was holding an overpriced 2015 GPL in his hand.
"Now there is a wine that has returned," Phil said. "The daughter has taken over management of the property."
Apparently she holds some political position of authority in Pauillac.
And then he said:
"For many years, Grand Puy Lacoste has underperformed its terroir."
Yes. Yes, Phil. I hear what you are saying. I've been trying to tell that to a group for about two decades now, notwithstanding the sheep mentality from cellartracker and elsewhere....
Encouragingly, he seems to think the very recent vintages of GPL have rebounded under the direction of the daughter.
As I have said here before, I like the 2014. Maybe we are in for a GPL renaissance! Have not tried the '15 and '16.
But at least SOMEBODY out there has seen what I have seen... For the past 30 years, at least, Grand Puy Lacoste has been a supermarket level wine.
The '05, '09 and '10 are swill, in great Pauillac vintages.
Hopefully "the daughter" can bring it back around and realize the potential of that Pauillac terroir.
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OrlandoRobert
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Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
I think our fearless leader has been doing shot glasses out of cocktail booze made by Rolland!!!JimHow wrote:
For the past 30 years, at least, Grand Puy Lacoste has been a supermarket level wine.
The '05, '09 and '10 are swill, in great Pauillac vintages.
Hopefully "the daughter" can bring it back around and realize the potential of that Pauillac terroir.
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
I hate to be a Debby Downer, but I can hardly think of a single Bordeaux that has improved since the dawn of the 21st Century, for my palate of course. There are still some fantastic wines being made in Bordeaux but I almost always prefer how these ones used to show. And so many houses — Canon, Figeac, Pavie, Angelus, Pontet Canet, Cos, Beychevelle, etc. etc. — now make modern or mostly modern swill.
I was going to nominate Chateau like Branaire Ducru and Haut Bailly, but then I remember the amazing wines they made in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. They’re no better now probably.
Here’s two I’ll throw out that have been much better of late (i.e. since ~2000): Brane Cantenac and Leoville Barton.
Brane had some decent efforts in the 70’s and 80’s, but things have really turned around. The 2000 I had recently was terrific.
Leoville Barton is a classic but as much as I enjoy vintages like the 90 and 96, it always seemed to lack an extra gear (for me), but since 2000 they’ve been on a roll.
I was going to nominate Chateau like Branaire Ducru and Haut Bailly, but then I remember the amazing wines they made in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. They’re no better now probably.
Here’s two I’ll throw out that have been much better of late (i.e. since ~2000): Brane Cantenac and Leoville Barton.
Brane had some decent efforts in the 70’s and 80’s, but things have really turned around. The 2000 I had recently was terrific.
Leoville Barton is a classic but as much as I enjoy vintages like the 90 and 96, it always seemed to lack an extra gear (for me), but since 2000 they’ve been on a roll.
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
NOT TRUE. Except in the generalized sense that all wine is really swill.JimHow wrote: The '05, '09 and '10 are swill, in great Pauillac vintages.
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
It's an interesting question, but for many of these wines, I just haven't tasted recent releases.
It might actually be instructive to pull together a dinner of younger BDX to calibrate on how these compare.
It might actually be instructive to pull together a dinner of younger BDX to calibrate on how these compare.
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JimHow
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Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
That's really not a terrible idea.It might actually be instructive to pull together a dinner of younger BDX to calibrate on how these compare.
Maybe the theme for next year's Friday night dinner:
YOUNG BORDEAUX.
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
Even better, young Chateau Grand-Puy Lacoste.
Or, the most improved red Bordeaux in the last few vintages.... I'll get back to my choice, in the right thread.
Nic
Or, the most improved red Bordeaux in the last few vintages.... I'll get back to my choice, in the right thread.
Nic
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
I guess that Domaine de Chevalier is also a very much improved wine. Seems like the latest few vintages are something.
I tried the 2015 that was great. I bought some 2016. At MacArthur, the Bordeaux specialist recommended us tu buy the 2018, that is extraordinary.
Nic
I tried the 2015 that was great. I bought some 2016. At MacArthur, the Bordeaux specialist recommended us tu buy the 2018, that is extraordinary.
Nic
Re: "I think a change, would do you good"
Tour Saint-Christophe someone?
Nic
Nic
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