Which classified Left Banks do you think are too modern?

[Blanquito]

Which classified Left Banks do you think are too modern?

We need a BWE recalibration on this. We’ve had lots of talk recently about new and improved, but so much of that is a style question. Just like in American politics, the Right Bank is pretty much a collective train wreak (St Emilion) or too pricey (Pomerol) to care one way or another. But the Left Bank is still our main hunting grounds. What gives along the Gironde? What’s your take?

Some Chateau have modernized a bit but without going too far, like Branaire Ducru and Montrose,’which I’m not including here because I am still a fan of these wines. Of course, many of us haven’t had many of these recently so just state when you think a given Medoc went to the dark side. I’ll start.

Way Too Modern
Cos (since 2002)
Pape Clement (since ~2000)
de Pez

Too Modern
La Tour Carnet (2000-2005, I stopped trying after that)
Leoville Poyferre (since 2003)
Pontet Canet (since 2005)
St Pierre (since 2003)
Kirwan (since 2005)
Malescot St Expury (since 2003)
Smith Haut Lafitte (since 2002/3)
Cantenac Brown (since 2014)
Giscours (since 2009)

Borderline or May Be Moving Towards Too Modern
Beychevelle (2009-2016)
Lafon Rochet (since 2005)
Haut Bailly (since 2005?)
d’Armailhac (since 2005)
Lynch Bages (since 2009?)

[jckba]

Nice idea Patrick and here are several additions to add to you list:

Lascombes (since 2004/5) to the poster child way too modern category
Les Carmes Haut Brion (since 2014/5) to the borderline moving category
Domaine de Chevalier (since 2015) to the borderline moving category

[AKR]

I've had 2000, 2002, and 2005 Lascombes in the last few years, and while all good, I think they were made for a critic's initial assessment. They were just not as good as I'd hoped, and all had been held since release, so unlikely to be a case of damage.

This was during the era when an American financial promoter - Colony - owned them, so I suppose this was a very conscious effort. Tom Barrack has done ok for me in other stuff, so I can hardly complain.

While its easy to rail against Rolland and the UC Davis cadres, don't overlook the potential of climate change on all the changes. Even out here, the cool Lake County vineyards are starting to make ok wine, simply because its become so much warmer over the last generation. This is an area well north of the primo Napa & Sonoma high rent districts.

Crazy thought - some estates continue to make wines that are not presented/designed for critics. I think most of Kermit Lynch's BDX lineup is like that. They're aren't really to my taste...but give them a try.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

Ducru Beaucaillou way too modern since 6/21/2019

[JimHow]

Lol, as usual Hound you've got me laughing out loud here at my desk.

[OrlandoRobert]

Great list.

Adding to it:

Meyney (since 2005 for me)

Poujeaux (since 2005)

La Louviere (since 2014, Rollando took over)

And at risk, my long-time fave, Lanessan. Bouard is now on board. The 2015 and 2016 vintages are not compelling under him. Buy up all the 2014 you can find.

[greatbxfreak]

Blanquito,

What's really the aim of your post??

Ha, ha, ha!

Haut Bailly on the verge to be modern?? No way, one of the most mineral, cool climate wines in Bordeaux!

Les Carmes Haut Brion - no way, perfect Pessac-Leognan and property on a roll! jckba??? Domaine de Chevalier wtf!

Cos had been modern until 2010 vintage and went back to old roots since 2011 vintage. Everything changed since Jean Guillaume Prats left.

OrlandoRobert - Meyney???? I guess you haven't tasted 2014-5-6-7-8

[jckba]

So 1 for 3, if I was a baseball player I’d be an all star



And while I understand your initial disdain in my Pessac picks ( or was it a Graves error on my part I can also say that at the same time, I very much liked both these wines and do think that they are on an upwards trajectory and have purchased both of them in each of the past 3 vintages 2014, 2015 and 2016 so there is really no stronger endorsement than putting your money behind a wine. But I can also tell you that from samples tasted at the UGC that both of these wines seem a little plusher and more polished than say 10 years ago and perhaps me commenting on these wines upon release is not the best time as the new oak is always apparent in some form but they do seem different to me.

[JimHow]

I have to say, I lean towards GBF in this discussion.
If 2014 Ducru is "modern," give me modern!

[Comte Flaneur]

My categories would be

Bit too modern for my liking

Cos
Poyferre
St-Pierre
Kirwan
Lascombes
Malescot St-Exupery
La Tour Carnet
Pape Clement

Modern but not too modern

Mouton-Rothschild
Pontet Canet
Ducru Beaucaillou
Giscours
Gloria
Domaine De Chevalier
Smith Haut-Lafitte

I heard that Meyney had gone on to the dark side but the 2014 got great reviews on here.

Also I note that some ‘modern’ estates are dialling it back now that Parker is just a hazy blob in the rear view mirror. As Izak and others have noted this applies to estates like Cos. I think it even applies to Pape Clement too.

[Blanquito]

Thanks for the input. How did I forget Lascombes?

Certainly one wino’s modern is another’s sweet spot, so maybe a more neutral thread would be: which chateau have had major shifts in style? And do you prefer the new style? I don’t drink enough young bordeaux to keep track myself of the ever shifting styles, but I definitely want to avoid buying modern-styled claret as I usually really dislike it especially compared to the pre-spoofed version of the wine.

The easiest thing might be to just follow Jeff Leve’s notes, as he and I have nearly diametrically opposed palates when it comes to Bordeaux from 2000-present (our tastes more often align on older wines before chateau started heavily spoofing for Parker points). The more he likes a chateau’s new incarnation, the less I like it. That’s useful. Parker’s palate was less predictable for me, at least on the Left Bank where he could still admire old school wines like Sociando. Before I was full calibrated to Parker’s palate, I ended up buying a bunch of modern crap that he raved about without any indication in his note that the wine in question more resembled a Franken-wine creation than an old school AFWE thin-n-weedy claret.

[OrlandoRobert]

Les Carmes Haut Brion - no way, perfect Pessac-Leognan and property on a roll! jckba??? Domaine de Chevalier wtf!

OrlandoRobert - Meyney???? I guess you haven't tasted 2014-5-6-7-8

Of course all a matter of opinion, but now we are talking about two estates that I have very long histories with. If you do not think Les Carmes Haut Brion has turned full-on modern, then we are on different planets. They tilted modern in 2014 and then have driven that style full-bore. I have had lots of 2010, 2005, 2000 and 1999 over the past couple of years, and 2014 is a much different style. I think the vintage saved it from being OTT, but then came 2014. This Chateau, however, has changed in every way, and for those that like riper, more polished fruit and wood presence, this may be it.

Now Meyney, perhaps I need to try 2014, but 2009 and 2005 told me the style had changed. I bet that I have had more Meyney in my life than any other Cru besides Lanessan and Sociando. I still think the 1986 is the greatest QPR ever, and the run of vintages in the 1980s are incredibly tasty. Meyney today is not what it once was, but again, I will grant you that I have not tried the 2014. I tend to write off a Chateau once they have turned modern. The only one that I have not written off, as I love Cab Franc dominant Bordeaux, is Les Carmes, so I do have 2015 and 2016. I did not buy 2017 or 2018.

[OrlandoRobert]

The easiest thing might be to just follow Jeff Leve’s notes, as he and I have nearly diametrically opposed palates when it comes to Bordeaux from 2000-present (our tastes more often align on older wines before chateau started heavily spoofing for Parker points). The more he likes a chateau’s new incarnation, the less I like it.

Bingo.

Looks at his scores on Les Carmes. Were lackluster considering the terroir until 2014, then boom. He rated 2016 and 2018 both 99s. Read the notes, these are clearly modern. You dont even need to drink them to see that. Not a knock on Jeff, this is his stylistic preference. I backfilled on more 2010 after trying the 2014, which is actually quite decent, but different.

[marcs]

IMO the attack of the modern styling is a reason that scores for Bordeaux have soared over the last 5-10 years. There is nothing easier than getting critics to give big scores to big wines in barrel. Big wine, big score, that's the way it's supposed to work, right? What could go wrong? Too many CT users have a similar attitude.

A few scattered impressions --

I haven't had much Domaine De Chevalier but I did have a bottle of the 2015 and found it thick, slick, and anonymous in a way I didn't like. Not a lot of left bank character, maybe it will age into it.

I went to a big Leoville Poyferre vertical and found quite a number of vintages to be too sweet and gloopy. Including some extremely praised vintages like 2009. They did better in "sterner" vintages, the 2000 was very good and the 2010 was a lot better than 2009.

There is no doubt that Malescot Exupery is "modern" styled, very modern styled in fact, but I find they handle it pretty well for my palate. There are different styles of modern. In particular Malescot seems to go to an effort to make sure there wines have good acidity.

[stefan]

I have not tasted very many of these young wines but will comment on one of the "way too modern" ones, 2002 Pape Clement. I bought a case on futures not knowing of the style change. I opened the first bottle five or more years ago and was surprised to find how soft the tannins were in comparison to other left bank 2002s and old style Pape Clement. The fruit was sweet and the concentration high but the wine was not out of balance and had good Graves character. Different from old style Pape Clement, but not worse IMO. In time I'll see if it ages as well. I do not mind the new style of Bordeaux as long as it is true. Many modern St Emillions are not, but I have no similar criticism of Pape Clement.

[Blanquito]

So many classic Chateau have changed hands over the last 15-20 years or so, many of which had consistent ownership over many previous decades... Pichon Lalande (sold in 2005), Lagune (sold in 2003?), Montrose, Canon, Figeac, Lanessan, Carmes Haut Brion, Pape Clement, and lots more.

Things seems to change the most when this happens, not surprisingly.

[Blanquito]

And conversely, almost all of the old stalwarts of a traditional style still have their long-time owners running the show: Leoville Barton, Sociando, Bel Air Marquis d'Aligre, Cantemerle, et cetera.

Did you know that until the late 1980’s, the vineyards of Chateau Cantemerle were planted with 24% Cabernet Franc! No wonder I love the 82, 83, 85 and 89 so much.

[greatbxfreak]

OrlandoRobert,

For me modern wine is a very extracted and overoaked wine, like f.i. Pavie was intil 2014 vintage and Cos 2009.

"This Chateau, however, has changed in every way, and for those that like riper, more polished fruit and wood presence, this may be it." Your descriptiom of Les Carmes doesn't mean imho that this wine is modern. Guillaume Pouthier's first vintage was 2012 and I think you haven't noticed a slight touch of Rhone winemaking in LCHB. More precise wine, more focused, more floral and more elegant. Never and never a wine even close to modern style imho.

Meyney - from my website: https://www.greatbordeauxwines.com/vint ... 16-15/2017

...Meyney always offers great value for money and its 2017 doesn't disappoint. Splendid freshness and acidity, silky fruit and tannin, velvety texture, fine structure with gentle kick of typical for St.Estephe coarseness. Really, really well made! 58% Cabernet Sauvignon, 31% Merlot and 11% Petit Verdot. The latter grape variety seems to add strong backbone to this wine.

Anne Le Naour, Meyneys manager, was so kind and prepared some other vintages to taste. 2016 was powerful with strong structure, strong backbone (Petit Verdot!) as well and splendid length. 94p. 2015 was of similar splendid quality, maybe a bit less concentrated than 2016. 93-94p. 2014 showed remarkable acidity, the hallmark of the vintage, freshness, lot of ripe fruit and tannin, fine structure and meaty finish. Classic cool climate vintage. 92-93p. Impressive showing of Meyney's big potential!"....

2018 may be the best vintage at this property in last 50 years. And it's absolutely not even close to be modern imho!!

Comte Flaneur,

Yes Pavie and Cos have dialed back. I agree almost with your list of modern wines but not with the ones posted by others.

[OrlandoRobert]

I think you seem to like any Bordeaux. Is there any left bank that is over the top modern to you? The list secured above, especially including Les Carmes, is pretty modern to me and apparently many others here.

Is the cut of Petit Verdot normal for Meyney or increased? I like it very much in Bordeaux. Bolair is an interesting value play there.

[OrlandoRobert]

I just checked Leve’s site. Bouard is now consulting at Meyney since 2013. Yea, I’ll pass on trying it. Not a fan of his at all or what he does to the wines where he consults. To me that is a fundamental change.

[AKR]

And conversely, almost all of the old stalwarts of a traditional style still have their long-time owners running the show: Leoville Barton, Sociando, Bel Air Marquis d'Aligre, Cantemerle, et cetera.

Did you know that until the late 1980’s, the vineyards of Chateau Cantemerle were planted with 24% Cabernet Franc! No wonder I love the 82, 83, 85 and 89 so much.

Look around for Clos St Julien and La Tour Figeac if you like that cab franc herbal/spice/oregano notes.