Audouze outdoes himself...

[marcs]

If you haven't already seen it at Wineberserkers it is well worth checking out Francois Audouze's latest post, it verges (and I mean this in the friendliest possible sense) on self-parody

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vi ... 1&t=167700

--any wine vintage after 1982 is completely immature and hardly worth drinking

--beaujolais is just getting started at 70 years old

etc. etc.

Expressed as usual in his passionate prose...

[DavidG]

When he hung out here, Francois used to say something similar about anything made after 1961. Not so much that everything younger was immature or hardly worth drinking. More that the winemaking wasn’t the same after 1961, and the wines were no longer authentically Bordeaux. Then 1982 and Peynaud's teachings were the downfall of it all.

He seems to have changed his outlook, though, now saying that a 1990 should be drinking well in 2082 (no typo, that’s 62 years from now).

Francois knows what he likes and he’s got tons of experience. He’s opened my eyes to some fantastic old wines. But if you think my sweet spot of 25-30 years is too old, then you’ve got to consider Francois a true vinonecrophiliac.

[Blanquito]

35 is the new 25, David. The 1989 and 1990 vintages still need more time to peak!

[Winona Chief]

I think some of the 1990 Bordeaux are at peak or approaching peak and I have had a few that were past peak. Most of the best 1989 red Bordeaux, although wonderful now, will be better in the future (like maybe 5 to 10 years). Just my opinion - feel free to disagree.

Chris Bublitz

[Blanquito]

I think some of the 1990 Bordeaux are at peak or approaching peak and I have had a few that were past peak. Most of the best 1989 red Bordeaux, although wonderful now, will be better in the future (like maybe 5 to 10 years). Just my opinion - feel free to disagree.

Chris Bublitz

I concur completely, in that the best 1990 chateaux are closer to peak than the top 1989s.

[JimHow]

Agree.

[JimHow]

Stuart has graced us with some spectacular 1959 and 1961 first growths.

Older than that, one of the best old wines I recall drinking was that Petrus that MichaelP brought to france 15, what was that, a '55?

[dstgolf]

Jim,

I thought MPs Petrus was 34!! Larry kept the bottle and still has it on his bar.

[JimHow]

i think you are right danny, wow. now that was an old wine that wowed me.

[Nicklasss]

Jim, it was a 1934 Petrus that MichaelP shared in Bordeaux.

By the way, I agree with François. I just bought a few 2016 Bordeaux for the kids of my future grandkids... Come on, let's get serious! Someone has the right to say that she/he prefers good pristine bottle of a 100 years old wine, i don't challenge that. But saying to everyone else that 40 years old wines are too young, well every nose/palate/appreciation of wine is almost individual to each wine lover. I guess that even most of the producers in Bordeaux would rarely say to wait one of their wines for a 100 years.

I respect François, tasting wines with him 3 or 4 times, once at one of his wine dinner in Paris. And I'll tell you a secret, but keep it for yourself: I have already heard François telling really good things about some wines that were younger than 40 years old. Even as young as... 15 years old! He his a real wine lover, always trying to find good things in any wine, and appreciating his moment with other wine lovers. He has access to pristine bottles of old wines, I don't, so also difficult for me to put any real judgment on those wines. But the 1982 Mouton Rothschild or 1982 Lafleur are really great wines to me. They will be different in 30 more years, some will prefer them in 30 years, and some will think they are at their top now. It is part of the game.

Nic

[sdr]

François says that essentially none of his guests at his WineDinners has found any of the wines too old or decrepit. Can any of you who has actually attended one, such as Nic or Ed, confirm this for the dinner(s) you attended?

Stu

[Nicklasss]

Hi Stuart. I'll try to find back my report of that diner.

My favorite wines at that diner were a 1988 Krug (with the sardine, a perfect match), the 1948 Suduiraut (still very rich, complex, went superbly well with the dessert made of peaches), the 1987 Mouton Rothschild (i like the Cab Sauvignon and thought it went very well with the cod sauce and spices) and the 1955 Beaune (with the pigeon sandy meat, the forrest floor of the Beaune with still some old cherries was genious).

I quite remember a 1934 Chablis village that was like a shooting star: nasty before, a 5 min where the wine showed something better like maple syrup with mousseron, and after the spirit of the Chablis left the place and never came back.

But like i wrote in another post, François has more experience with that type of wine, and basically, his love of wine makes him always finding something positive in every wine.

If you read french, here is a link to François's report of that diner Marie-Claude and me attended. It is incredibly well written and "chapeau" to François for that.
http://www.academiedesvinsanciens.org/d ... -vefour-2/

Even for François himself, 4 wines seemed "hurt" at a moment or another (1941 white Graves, 1934 Chablis, 1949 Vin fin Nuit Champy and 1965 Rieussec).

The fun story about the 1965 Rieussec : at a moment, one of the woman at the table said that the wine was smelling bad and not good. François argue that it was not the case. At a moment I said "I'm sorry François, but Madame is right". I swear i could see knifes getting out of his eye to me! But I added "but where Madame is wrong, is that the wine will be great in 20 minutes". And effectively, 20 minutes later, the wine was excellent. The wine was only reduced (missing oxygen for a long time) so it was smelling reduction aromas (rubber, bandaid). When it took it oxygen, that transformed it into a excellent to almost great wine! Right after, i could see in François's eye that he understood that i understand and like a bit wine.

Nic

[SF Ed]

I am mostly in Francois' camp - I love old wines.

I've had the opportunity to drink extremely old wines with Francois a number of times. The wines he typically brings to events show well and are very interesting and good.

If they are bad bottles, he won't show them. But I've had lots of bottles with him that aren't great, but have something positive to give if you look for it.

But most of all, he has a palate where he likes really really old wines.

Something I posted a year ago:

My favorite recent anecdote on this was at Tim's 50th bash. I had three glasses in front of me - Haut Brion from 1989, 1953 and 1928. The 1989 was fantastic and perfect, but for my taste would be better with 10 or 20 more years. The 1953 was sublime and the best wine I drank all of last year. The 1928 was great in its own way, but something I bet would have been better 20 years ago.

Francois, with the same 3 wines in front of him, pronounced the 1928 his favorite. He really loves old wine. And I would bet 95% of wine drinkers would pick the 1989 because of its fruit and exuberance.

That's the key - personal preference. I like old wines. Francois likes really old wines. Most wines have something to give if you look for it. Francois likes looking for the good stuff in old wines more than most. I think it's that simple.

[Nicklasss]

Good summary Ed.

And you're right about it is personnal what persons like. And i understand you prefer old wines. It is true they are different in their profile, opening a completely different galaxy than young wines.

But when you say the 1989 Haut Brion was too young, and i say that a 1934 Chablis was too old, there is nothing negative, only that the wine we had, did not met what our nose/palate is used to love.

Nic

[DavidG]

Yes clearly it’s personal preference. Just because I find it take's Bordeaux 25-30 years to start showing its best doesn’t mean that works for anyone else.

But there are a few other variables worth considering.

Some wines are destined to go longer. While there are always exceptions, a Petrus or Haut Brion, a Pichon Baron or Montrose, is more likely to give pleasure at 25 or 35 or 55 than a Beaujolais.

Provenance. Storage. Again you hear (rare) stories of poorly stored bottles or those with excessive ullage showing well, but the odds are much better if the wine's been in a cool, dark, damp place all its life. I think there’s a big difference in risk between where Francois sources his wines and bottles that have been traded multiple times on the auction circuit.

Corks. They don’t last forever. When they fail is unpredictable. Risk increases with age. When it comes to old wines, we’ve all heard the saying that there are no great wines, only great bottles. Corks are responsible for much of that.

Finally, when Francois says everyone is convinced by every one of his old bottles, I take it with a grain of salt. Some of it is hyperbole. Nic and Ed are telling us that not every bottle is a killer. Other attendees may be less impressed, but who is going to tell Francois that none of his wines were to their taste? Besides, he doesn’t serve those he thinks are duds, and with the number of bottles he opens the odds of having a few great ones must be pretty good.

Mostly it comes back to personal preference, just as Ed's post illustrates. I have a similar story, from our 2005 trip to Bouchard. Served a 1929 and a 1909 from their cellars, the 1929 was and remains one of the best wines I’ve ever had. The 1909 was a great and interesting experience, but as wine it was diminished compared to the 1929. To me. But the 1909 was Francois' favorite. And not a bizarre choice either. The wine was not dead. I could understand his love for it, even though I didn’t share that love.

[sdr]

Thanks for the useful comments.

Of course, it’s obvious that taste is subjective, anyone can like whatever they wish. Some old (but not ancient) German wine smells the same as the gasoline I put in my car and I imagine it tastes like it too. Yet some people adore it. Like many, I can enjoy a bit of kerosine or Brett or even VA in small doses if it adds complexity but is barely detectable. Others like much more.

What I question is those who think more is always better. Can people who genuinely enjoy these odors and flavors always wish for even more, sometimes to the near exclusion of appreciation for fruit flavor? Is a wine from 1888 always better than a similar one from 1893, 1920 or 1945? Can a wine clearly not intended for immortality such as Provençal Rosé really be better after a hundred years? Two hundred years?

I like old wines a lot. And there’s no doubt that in rare cases, they can not only survive but gain interest after decades of sleep. The greatest very old wine I have ever drunk was 1947 Cheval Blanc just last year. But a lot of the pleasure was due to its amazingly vibrant fruit. Not great because it was old and a survivor but because of the way the fruit was mysteriously amplified by the tremendous complexity - primary, secondary and tertiary.

Of course none of us drink ancient wines often like François. And I don’t discount the possibility that a well stored magnum of that 1870 Glamis Castle Lafite can still be pretty good. The oldest Bordeaux vintage I have reasonable experience with over several decades is 1961. For me, the great majority of them were better 10-20 years ago. Yet the Haut-Brion I tasted a few weeks ago was sublime.

This is what makes wine the most interesting beverage in the world. But still . . .

Stu

[sdr]

By the way, for those of us who were at BWE South a couple of weekends ago, we just missed François. He was visiting his son in Miami a few days prior and went to Wine Watch in Ft. Lauderdale for a tasting. Details on his Instagram page. I just found out yesterday.

Stu

[Blanquito]

I love fully mature, old wines. The 1966 Haut Bailly that Chris B. brought to Denver 2019 was one of my top wines of the whole weekend, as well as CabFan's incredible 1958 Inglenook Cabernet Sauvignon and 1961 Gordiano Barolo.

But I really don't like these wines because they are old. I am actually suspicious of really old wines on some level, as I have experienced some that were so nasty that I couldn't get the smell out of my memory for days. A sort of viniferous PTSD.

But a great bottle of a great wine from a great vintage stored its whole life in great conditions is much better a peak maturity. When that peak is attained, of course, is personal preference.

A little counterpoint: one or two of the old NYC wine crowd paid to attend to one of Francois' "Wine Dinners". It was from this group that I first heard they should be called "Vinegar Dinners".

[Comte Flaneur]

François says that essentially none of his guests at his WineDinners has found any of the wines too old or decrepit. Can any of you who has actually attended one, such as Nic or Ed, confirm this for the dinner(s) you attended?

Stu

Stu - I attended one his dinners in May 2018 with Tim. It was a fabulously enjoyable affair, and was the previous night’s dinner with Tim. We tasted eight champagnes before dinner, and 14 wines at our table.

On our table we had wine wines from 1950 - Tim’s Chateau Latour - and apart from another champagne, a 1989 Veuve Clicquot, the youngest wine was a 1981 Bouscat (Graves). Most of the wines were from the 50s and 60s.

Four wines I think were completely shot/Norwegian Blue parrot impersonation, including unfortunately a 1976 Pavie. There were several very good wines including the Latour and three absolutely sublime wines: my Barolo Prunotto 1967, a Clape 1982 from another table and Talbot 1966.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YZOdmyHCwHKbJhZd2

http://www.bordeauxwineenthusiasts.com/ ... ris#p65930

[DavidG]

Stu, too much is too much. For me.
But my too much may not be enough for someone like Francois.

[dstgolf]

Over the years we've been blessed with being able to enjoy many great bottles with friends from around the world. Truly a blessing the people that we've met over the years and one of them has been Francois who we've found to be bon vivant who is one of the most passionate people I've ever met when it comes to wine. Always a gentleman and willing to listen to everyone's opinion. Yes he has his passion for antiquities wines and yes the worlds premier necro-oenophile by a long shot. His love of old wines is second to none but he also appreciates a younger vintage even though in his mind may be a long way from perfection. Some things I just don't get and likely never will when it comes to old wines that I consider DOA and Francois has said wow like a Taittinger 1988 Comtes de Champagne we shared 2015 in Paris that was oxidized and had hardly a bubble left didn't do a thing for me but he encouraged us to look beyond and I understood what he was talking about but you'll never convince me to love cilantro either!! That dinner I felt the 89 Pape Clement was near perfection and Francois said it needs time...maybe??

A benchmark for many that attended Tim's 50th had a tremendous opportunity to enjoy a huge spectrum of great wines that weekend young and old. Haut Brion was featured including what I can remember 28,32, 53, 78,89 and there may have been a couple others. 53 was superb and exceeded expectation and 89 outstanding but yes could still see some upside. 32 DOA and 78 no thanks. Several thought the 28 was great(Francois) and Ed seemed to find redeeming characteristics but I couldn't understand what the were enjoying in this mushroom soya,forest floor, black tea concoction. I didn't like it at all but to each his own and that's where the world of wine leads us. I love Bordeaux and have difficulty finding the same love for most red Burgundy and find no love for Aussie Shiraz/Cab, NZ pinot and most Cali Cabs. Chile and Argentinian wines don't like me with their sulfite content so I mainly stick to Bordeaux. But I digress... That time at Tim's had highs and lows with 68 Lafite dead and no redeeming characteristics but 48 Rauzan Segla and 45 Leoville Las Cases were treats and showed incredible youth but likely would have been better years/decades before.

Everyone has their own palate and there are no rights and wrongs. What I really admire about Francois is that he is far from judgemental and listens to others opinions never being critical of ones taste and never pushing his own likes on others. Yes he tries to share his passion with ones around him but but always in a diplomatic way. Nothing I hate more is someone criticizing another because they don't love a wine because they do. That's not Francois style and I admire him for that. Always a gentleman and always an interseting time when we've shared a bottle or two. A true icon in the wine world.

[sdr]

Thanks for weighing in with your opinions. And we all agree that François is a passionate devotée of ancient wines, which may or may not be our own tass de thé.

But if I read his notes correctly he seems to say ALL his guests at all of his Wine Dinners loved ALL the ancient wines, some of who had little or no experience with old wines. Can this really be true?

And he seems to like all vintages equally well. Can a ‘58/‘65/‘68 Bordeaux really be as good as a ‘59/‘61/‘66?

Of course I am not disputing his palate preferences to which he is entitled of course. I am just wondering if all his guests, novices and experts alike, share his opinion.

Stu

[DavidG]

Thanks for weighing in with your opinions. And we all agree that François is a passionate devotée of ancient wines, which may or may not be our own tass de thé.

But if I read his notes correctly he seems to say ALL his guests at all of his Wine Dinners loved ALL the ancient wines, some of who had little or no experience with old wines. Can this really be true?

And he seems to like all vintages equally well. Can a ‘58/‘65/‘68 Bordeaux really be as good as a ‘59/‘61/‘66?

Of course I am not disputing his palate preferences to which he is entitled of course. I am just wondering if all his guests, novices and experts alike, share his opinion.

Stu

As to the bolded, no it is not true. Does he really say that or does he say that ALL guests have loved/had their eyes opened to at least SOME of his ancient wines? Is it hyperbole? Is it in some cases politeness or intimidation in the presence of such old wines and such an impressive collector?

[tim]

Having shared many an old wine with Francois and others, one thing I'll note is that context is everything. If I am having a dinner with primarily younger wines, then taste an older wine, it seems out of place and is often less enjoyable than it would be surrounded by other older wines. I find your palate adjusts to the environment, which is one reason why Francois' wine dinners are successful.

In addition, I'll note that the dinner that Ian and I attended was not one of his paid dinners, but rather another type of dinner, "Academie des Vins Anciens", where he invites everyone to bring their old wines to share with each other. This is a less controlled environment than his "wine dinners", when he pulls the wines from his cellar and selects a meal to complement the wines, usually at a Michelin-starred restaurant. I personally have never been to one of his paid dinners.

Finally, one of the great contributions Francois has provided has been his prolific note-taking. The things I have learned about vintages and the characteristics of older wines have to great extent come from his blog. For this I continue to be grateful.

[tim]

As a side-note, I was fortunate enough to join a Margaux dinner hosted by Ian a few years back. During the dinner, I asked Neal Martin what his favorite older vintage was (mostly in the context of Bordeaux). He said it was 55. And I must admit, every Bordeaux wine from the 55 vintage that I have experienced has been stellar.

[Jürgen Steinke]

I had some discussion with Francois over the years. His opinion is extreme. For instance: Champagne is produced with bubbles for a reason. If a Champagne has lost the bubbles it is fair to say that this wine is too old and no longer Champagne. Why buying Champagne and waiting until it lost the bubbles?

Furthermore many wines have not enough structure for long cellaring. I guess you will not find many people who adore a 50 year old Beaujolais. About ten years ago I had a Beaujolais from the 50th in Paris. This wine was still alive and it was an interesting wine. But was it better then a well stored Beaujolais Cru 10 years old? Certainly not. At least not to me. Not to speak from lighter styled white wine meant for early consumption. I state 95% of wines made in the world are produced for immediate pleasure. They do benefit from a few years in a good cellar maybe but after a decade or two they are merely alive at best but certainly not at their peak as one may think after reading posts from Francois. This is not true for the very best Bordeaux, Burgundy, Rhone etc. Some of these are still wonderful when 30 or 50 years old. But it is a risk to wait that long because you never know how good the bottle or cork will be after so much time. Experienced wine consumers know the wisdom: After 30 years there are no good wines, just good bottles. People may have wonderful old Bordeaux etc. from good vintages and the one or other aha moments. But to conclude therefore every wine is better after 50 years+ is certainly over the top.

Btw: Francois is a gentleman indeed and very polite even when you strongly disagree with him.

[Jay Winton]

Tom brought a 55 Mouton to a dinner. While its been quite a few years, I remember it being full of life.

[dstgolf]

Jurgen,

Welcome to BWE. Haven't seen you post before.

I couldn't agree more with your comments. Champagne without bubbles surely is not champagne. Yes wines at 50+ years may be interesting and some ( the rare bottle) makes you go wow, I can't believe the youth, complexity etc but this is rare and certainly not worth seeking out out these wines as Francois has. His cellars are incredible and the shear volume of wine this man has amassed is truly incredible. In 2015 he took us on a clandestine run to a secret house in north Paris somewhere ariving in taxi late at night to see one of his three main cellars. An entire house surrounded with fencing and razor wire to protect one of his incredible investments. Never seen anything like it but it was truly a wine lovers paradise with bins of unfathomable treasures. DRC of all extended vintages and single vineyards. All of the classified Bordeaux growths in multiple case lots. Petrus,le Pin, Lafleur on and on. This man is the penultimate collector of fine antiquities wines. Say what you may about Francois and his eccentricities but I agree he is a gentleman extraordinaire with an unrivalled passion for ancient wines and his one goal in life is to share his love of these wines with anyone with deep enough pockets to pay the entry fee to enjoy some of these gems with him. No he does not give his wines or knowledge away for free but I'm sure one of his wine dinners would be worth every penny just to experience the moment with an icon like Francois and experience first hand whether or not all in his lineup for the night will produce an incredible mind blowing memory or just confirm the thought of a wine vinegar exprience . I suspect people will be pleasantly surprised with the experience if they take the leap with one of Francois winedinners.

[JimHow]

I love Francois but he and I will NEVER agree on his old wines.