Have there been good Bordeaux made since the 80s?

[Jürgen Steinke]

A while ago I opened 1986 and 1996 Talbot and tasted them side by side with a wine loving friend and wine writer. The former wine coming from the so called golden era of Cordier. The 86 had a strong band aid aroma while the 1996 was clean. One would say that band aid added complexity but to me the 1996 was the better wine. I once sat next to some famous Chateaux owners at a Lunch in St. Emilion. One of them mentioned cynically that it maybe would be a good idea to add some brett to the wines before bottling so the lovers of old school Bordeaux get back their beloved Claret

[Claudius2]

DavidG
That would be very difficult in 2020 and onward unless you picked cooler and slower ripening vintages.
I would also not give up on more modern vintages in relation to ageing.
As you may know I'm Australian and most old Aussie wines are from warm to hot areas, despite the fact that in the last 2-3 decades, wine companies here (and I'm a shareholder in some) are looking for cooler climes and that often means Tasmania.

I have tasted a lot of Aussie wines from hot areas such as Barossa, McLaren Vale and Hunter that have aged brilliantly. And that does not have to be Penfolds Grange or Henshke Hill of Grace. Even some of the relatively inexpensive old Hunter wines (eg, Tulloch Shiraz from the 1950's) show lots of character and I think you may actually like the style if you appreciate relatively old Bordeaux.

Going back 30-40 or so years ago, the grapes in most regions were picked at lower Baume levels than now.
Yet if you tried doing that in warmer vintages as the current times, you may end up getting hard green tanins and a lack of physiological ripeness.
St Emilion is in fact a good example of that - they are often now 14.5% or even higher, yet they were maybe 12-13% 40 years ago.

There are numerous vineyard management issues that could be changed such as more shading of the grape bunches but I dont know enough to argue if they would really change things.

[jal]

Thank you for providing more clarity than I could David. You are always good at that, I again repeat that great wines were made in Bordeaux after 1990 but I do not enjoy them as much.
Jürgen, I would prefer drinking the 1986, but to each his own, I'm happy you prefer the 1996.
I think (with some obvious exceptions-Leoville Barton, some 1996s, First Growths when I can afford them) I will mainly buy Bordeaux from the 70s and 80s going forward.

[DavidG]

Jurgen, point taken but I don't think it's only the absence of Brett.

With respect to Brett, a little goes a long way, and it can easily get out of control. I drank and loved a lot of 1986 Talbot with just a bit of barnyard but wouldn't have loved strong band-aid. I understand and accept that some find any Brett to be abhorrent. To me, it's like fertilizer: a bit can be good, too much is bad.

[Jürgen Steinke]

David,

you are right – it´s not only brett. The climate is different too. The yields are lower, the selection is stricter and so forth. I love the fact that vintages like 1973 or 1984 are very unlikely these days. And vintages like 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2017 were not extreme in heat or ripeness. I think Chateaux like Leoville Barton and GPL and some others still produce wine in a classic style.

[DavidG]

Agreed Jurgen. There are still classics, but you have to be more selective.

[AKR]

Interesting comment about the 86 vs 96 Talbot. I drank a lot of the latter when it was younger, and I hope I might have a bottle left somewhere as it always seemed to keep improving. An 86 maybe a year or so ago was as awesome as ever.

Nothing will ever beat that 86 Talbot in Imperial that HM$ brought to an event though!

===========

I'd like to touch upon technology and the role it can play in making better wines. Once upon a time a modest estate might have been forced to do all their harvesting at once, and that might have been more driven by scheduling a crew, rather than perfect ripeness. With advancements in machinery, a mechanical harvest might be able to done multiple times, with no need for constraints around labor force availability, and driven just by each parcel's ripeness. This could mean the smaller estates (just ball parking) going from making 3 solid vintages a decade (the kinds that would appeal to fine wine consumers) to perhaps someday 7 of 10. Sort of like a California Napa/Sonoma hit rate. And then once they've got the grapes, rather than dumping them into one mega vat, with better tech/monitoring each truck could get its own vat, with a vinification specific to its particular character. Again, as that technology continues to get even better it means we get even more precise winemaking, and eventually better stuff in the bottle.

I have a friend who works at Case/New Holland and they've got some amazing automated grape harvesters in the pipeline. Machines that will be able to work when its totally dark, so that the harvest can happen with no water condensation yet on the grapes!

Not even sure about the clonal selection stuff but there's some crazy stuff there too. I had a Spanish wine a while back supposedly made with clones from Petrus grapes. It was really very good, and if tasted blind among a panel of right banks, I think it would have surprised a lot of people.

These are amazing times, especially for any thing associated with the Viticulture school at UC Davis.

PS: I'm pretty brett tolerant....but last night a poopy Mourchon was too much even for me. Mrs. AKR took one sip and said 'pass'

[Blanquito]

I recall a thread we had on BWE a while ago on Sociando where Leve was critical of their high yields in particular and early pick dates. And a few of us where like, if that’s Sociando’s magic recipe, bring back the high yields and indifferent harvest schedules! Let Mother Nature create concentrated wines in some years, light elegant wines in others, and a few green nasty duds to use for cooking wine (or to send to me and Alfert)!!!

[Blanquito]

I thing I always find so interesting is how polarized the camps are on this topic. The pro modern camp always trots out the better tech, the more rigorous selection, the cleaner cellars, the fancy enological knowledge, as if these facts speak for themselves. The pro old camp often points to the sinister forces of Michel Rolland said if any intervention is inherently bad. It seems as much a philosophical debate as a matter of taste.

Personally I could care less about these things if it results in a wine I don’t like. And I’ve long felt that if you can’t stand a little brett or a few pyrazines, you really should leave bordeaux to us true believers!

Of course, we ‘believers’ lost that battle a long time ago, and bordeaux followed the money as David said.

[Blanquito]

Can I suggest a few St Emilions now worth trying:

Laroque (last few vintages only)
Fleur Cardinale
Bellefont Belcier
Dominique
Moulin St Georges
Confession
Monbousquet
Clos L'Oratoire
Fonroque
L'Arrosee
Larcis Ducasse.

I can't guarantee that you will like them, though I focus these days on wines offering reasonable value rather than the very top wines.

For my tastes, this list of St Emilions is like a Most Wanted line-up of Rollandized frankenwines. I’m probably in the minority, but since at least 2005 (and much longer for some) I‘ve found most of these internationalized and over the top with sweetness and heat.

[AKR]

Can I suggest a few St Emilions now worth trying:

Laroque (last few vintages only)
Fleur Cardinale
Bellefont Belcier
Dominique
Moulin St Georges
Confession
Monbousquet
Clos L'Oratoire
Fonroque
L'Arrosee
Larcis Ducasse.

I can't guarantee that you will like them, thougI focus these days on wines offering reasonable value rather than the very top wines.

For my tastes, this list of St Emilions is like a Most Wanted line-up of Rollandized frankenwines. I’m probably in the minority, but since at least 2005 (and much longer for some) I‘ve found most of these internationalized and over the top with sweetness and heat.

I don't think l'Arrosee was ever in that camp, and the label is now long gone now, anyways.

While I like most of those wines, I do agree with Blanquito that its not a list of classicly styled right banks.

I've mentioned it before but Grand Corbin Despagne is making St Em's in the old school, with tannins that take some to unwind, and balance to their fruit extraction. And older Soutards - perhaps pre 2015 - ought to be still cut from the old patterns.

[Claudius2]

Folks
I have to say that I prefer the more modern style of St Emilion to the wines produced several decades ago, despite being concerned that the alcohol levels which are now getting higher than I'd like.
I don't buy Australian wines with very high alcohol levels (e.g., Shirvington, Greenock Creek) for the same reason.
I also don't like aggressive oak characters in wine and I find too much of it these days in many regions.
I do not like overt sweetness in table wines, irrespective of their origin. Even Sauternes and Barsac for my plate also needs complexity, acid and freshness rather than just masses of sugar.

Going back to the 70's and 80's the St Emilion wines I was trying then were too often rather thin, green and almost weedy. The English writers described them as herbal or wintergreen. For that reason, I only bought wine from a handful of estates for some decades. Yet the more expensive wines on the other hand generally showed fruit, complexity and intensity in those days, and are now too expensive. Oh well.
I would say that I DID notice a change in style in the 80's with the wines starting to show more depth and intensity.
With climate change and changing practices, Bordeaux wines as a whole are riper than 50 years ago. This is an even bigger problem back in Australia as the main regions were already warm or hot, and there has been a search on for cooler areas.

There is one point I do want to mention about the ageing potential of St Emilion wines that are considered to be of a more modern style.
A few I have found to NOT age well though most develop more elegance and complexity with age. The ageing potential of Barde-Haut for example has been questioned by some on this forum, though many others develop well.
I have also drunk a lot of Australian wines that were quite fruit sweet young (though I am not talking about the ultra-ripe, Parkerised wines here) though develop very well.
There is a perception in many markets that Aussie wines don't age, and I think that is a shame. I have had wonderful bottles of old whites and reds that were never expected to age so well.

Wines from 2005 onward are still young and I think we can watch them develop over future years to get a better picture of their age-worthiness.

[OrlandoRobert]

A while ago I opened 1986 and 1996 Talbot and tasted them side by side with a wine loving friend and wine writer. The former wine coming from the so called golden era of Cordier. The 86 had a strong band aid aroma while the 1996 was clean. One would say that band aid added complexity but to me the 1996 was the better wine. I once sat next to some famous Chateaux owners at a Lunch in St. Emilion. One of them mentioned cynically that it maybe would be a good idea to add some brett to the wines before bottling so the lovers of old school Bordeaux get back their beloved Claret

Bandaid is bad, no bueno. And I like barnyard, so am not brett averse in any way.

Just so we are clear, the Golden Age as some of us have called it, it’s not just this issue you raised, is newer more toasted oak, higher alcohol and other manipulations that achieve higher extraction and lower acids.

The modern St Ems - I would posit almost all of the St Ems - have been ruined as a result of modernization. The list posted above, at least for my palate, are some of the worst offenders, and essentially undrinkable to me. And I have had many of these wines many times at various stages of their development, from vintage 2000 (some from 1998) forward. Many of these wines are not actually better with age, they are worse, showcasing more the oak and alcohol now that the very exuberant, powerfully ripe fruit has faded a bit. No offense intended here, this is just where my palate deviates from the critics that swoon over these Rolland-inspired wines.

Of course, all palates vary. For my hedonistic bent, I am only buying Pomerol now. St Em is basically dead to me, but for a very few targeted purchases. I will admit to having recently bought 2015 Figeac out of curiosity, and some 2016 Canon. It is a crying shame that Magdelaine is no more. I’d rather backfill and chase Magdelaine than buying anything coming out of this appellation right now. Just grabbed a case of 2000 Magdelaine from the UK with an average bottle price that is now that much different than the 2016 Canon. A total no-brainer to me.

[Jürgen Steinke]

Robert,

not all Bordeaux show the character you described. Even not all St. Emilion are produced in this style. Some do actually exist and they are also not my preferred style but that is not the entire production. Generalization is always problematic or at least most of the times.

[OrlandoRobert]

Jurgen -

Would love some recommendations on St Ems that have remained traditional. I actually used to love St Em! And buy a lot of Pomerol.

[Comte Flaneur]

Here is a starter for ten and it’s cheap: Ch. Corbin - good value trad St-E

If you look hard enough there is still plenty to like there.

[marcs]

A related question I should perhaps start a separate thread for -- are more recent wines (especially wines from the oughts) aging more slowly than wines from the 1980s? Does anyone remember a 1980s vintage that was just emerging at 20 years old, like the 2000 vintage? Or locked down pretty tight at 10 years old, like 2010s? Wondering about the effect of increased selection, ripeness, extraction on the aging curve...

[Winona Chief]

Just a few thoughts:

Many of the 1986 red Bordeaux wines were shut down for the first 20-25 years.

Talbot is one of my favorite 1986s along with Rausan Segla. Many of the other top 1986s are really coming on strong now.

Many of the wines of Saint Emilion from the 1960s and 1970s were thin and green. I thought they got better and better through the 1980s. More recently too many went too far and became unbalanced - overripe and alcoholic.

I am a big fan of red Bordeaux from the 1980s. Just love the 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986 and 1989 vintages. Many of the 1982, 1983 and especially 1985 Bordeaux drank very well young. Don’t have enough experience tasting post-2000 vintages to offer a solid opinion.

Chris Bublitz

[OrlandoRobert]

Here is a starter for ten and it’s cheap: Ch. Corbin - good value trad St-E

If you look hard enough there is still plenty to like there.

Mark Golodetz from Wine Berserkers seems to have the same opinion, I’ve been meaning to grab some.

[JimHow]

We have met Annabelle Cruze Bardinet twice now in our BWE travels, she's tremendous.
We met her first in 2003 in NYC.
Then, when we showed her a picture of the 2003 event when we visited Corbin in 2015, she said:
"Oh, do you know Mark Golodetz?"

[OrlandoRobert]

A man of international renown!

[AKR]

I like Corbin too, but have not had any in some time.

Ms. Bardinet and her brother are also very gracious.

[robert goulet]

Part of my attachment to 80’s era bordeaux is I love some rusticity in my wines as long as it comes with enough fruit and depth. And that is what the 80’s delivered in spades. Wines from that era are plenty ripe but come with loads of character and complexity. Many of the things that add character and complexity — for me — are considered flaws in the modern oenological framework. Things like green notes and brett and unsoftened tannins, and these things have been systematically wrung out of contemporary bordeaux, even by the “old school” producers. It’s not really a qualitative matter for me, but one of style.

So the style has changed and thus for me, modern bordeaux are unlikely to ever be as exciting, complex, and compete as what came before. That’s fine, life goes on, good modern bordeaux is still good, sometimes really good.

I could not have said this better myself. I think you have heard me say “elegant rusticity”. That’s my emotional center.

We have a thread on WB regarding Loire Cab Franc. Probably one of the better critics for Loire, Chris Kissack, joined in the conversation. It was interesting to see the discussion evolve, as it hit me squarely, he does not see Loire the way I do. He wants the region to move modern like Bordeaux. He eschews green notes and Brett, and thinks wines like Raffault, Breton and Plouzeau have had their day, and producers like Theirrry Germain are what’s in. This is like turning your back on 1980s Bordeaux. Same discussion.

Most of us - especially those of us in our 50s and you more experienced guys in your 60s - grew up with these wines of such character. I’m not searching then or now for perfection. Perfection can be boring. I want distinction. Character. Sense of place. Honesty and transparency. That, my friends, is my Bordeaux. My Chinon.

To Jim’s last post, I could easily make the case that that 1986 Gruard Larose is the greatest non-First Growth Bordeaux ever made. I have also made the case that the 1986 Meyney is the greatest Bordeaux QPR ever made. Even today. Both are stunning.

And yes, both by Cordier.

1982 Talbot u popped is still my all time favorite, total untamed freakish cornucopia of animalistic sauvage!
I should of had to acquire a hunting license just to drink it!

Also....bring back my 12.5% alc Bordeaux

[OrlandoRobert]

You loved that 82 La Lagune I popped as well.

I have some 1970 and 1982 Magdelaine for the next time we get together!

[DavidG]

The 82 Talbot was the first full case purchase I made. Sadly I only bought 6 of the Gruaud and only a couple of the first growths. I think the only time I had the 82 La Lagune was a couple of weeks ago in Ft. Lauderdale, and it was playing in the same league with the big guns.

The 1986s were fantastic as well but took 25 years to really show well. Many said the fruit would never outlast the tannins, but for plenty of wines it did.

But the best non first growth Bordeaux, left bank anyway, is 1982 Pichon Lalande. As good as 1986 Gruaud is, a good bottle 1982 Pichon Lalande will leave it in the dust.

[Blanquito]

You loved that 82 La Lagune I popped as well.

I have some 1970 and 1982 Magdelaine for the next time we get together!

Lucky guy. Love the 70 and 82 Magdelaine.

[OrlandoRobert]

You loved that 82 La Lagune I popped as well.

I have some 1970 and 1982 Magdelaine for the next time we get together!

Lucky guy. Love the 70 and 82 Magdelaine.

Well, bear in mind, I make poor Marc a/k/a BobbyGoulet, do naughty things!

[marcs]

The 1980s was the best decade for Bordeaux in my experience. Too bad François is no longer on BWE to explain why some earlier vintages were superior.

I had assumed from the thread title that the reference was to the 1880s, still the best decade of Bordeaux and only now rounding into maturity. It is much too early to judge the 1980s surely!

--Francois Audouze

[Claudius2]

David
Funny you mention the 82 Talbot as your first major purchase.
At the time, 82 was the first year I'd ever bought en primeur. Not even sure I'd ever the term before that. But I was swayed by the hype over the vintage.
I was also a novice in Bordeaux and French wines per se, so I asked the local distributor what to buy.
He recommended the wines of St Julien, and I bought Branaire, Beychevelle, Talbot and Leoville Barton.
He also tried suggesting some 1ers Crus but they were out of my price range (though now, I should have loaded up the truck..)
So in some ways I have always had a soft spot for St Julien.
During the 80's I mainly bought St Julien wines and progressively tried other appellations and regions.

[stefan]

Back in the 1970s and into the 1980s the fancy St Julien wines were bargains in comparison to e.g. Pauillac. Even thought I preferred Pauillac, I bought many more bottles of St Julien 2nd growths than Pauillac 2nd growths and Lynch-Bages (which even then was considered at or near 2nd growth level). Gruaud and Poyferre were downright cheap and affordable for drinking regularly even on my teacher's salary.
So I also have a soft spot for St Julien.

[Winona Chief]

Oh, that 1982 Talbot. At a blind tasting 20+ years ago. The wine I guessed to be 1982 Latour was revealed to be 1982 Talbot.

Chris Bublitz

[Blanquito]

Tom brought an 82 Talbot last year to BWE Denver that slayed it. We had the 83 Talbot in the same line up — a very good wine in its own right — and the 82 ran circles around it. So good.

[Blanquito]

Oh, that 1982 Talbot. At a blind tasting 20+ years ago. The wine I guessed to be 1982 Latour was revealed to be 1982 Talbot.

Chris Bublitz

Thanks to this outrageous enablement (a wine mistaken blind for the WOTV, the 82 Latour? Come on!), I just won a 3 pack of the 1982 Talbot. I bid on it to bring to France. Sigh.

[Comte Flaneur]

Tom brought an 82 Talbot last year to BWE Denver that slayed it. We had the 83 Talbot in the same line up — a very good wine in its own right — and the 82 ran circles around it. So good.

I had Ch Talbot 1983 on Thursday I will post shortly