Have there been good Bordeaux made since the 80s?

[jal]

Maybe it's me but it seems like the 80s was the golden era for Bordeaux, since then there have been great wines made in Bordeaux but very few of them taste like the ones made in the 80s.
And for those who say wait and give it more time, then my answer is: Most of the Bordeaux in the 80s tasted great or at least typical in the nineties and early 2000s (with some exceptions like 86 and 89), while almost no Bordeaux made after 1990 tastes typical (exceptions are Lafite and Margaux in 1995-1998). Very few have the same typical earthiness, cedar, tobacco nose, or complexity of the most basic Bordeaux made in the eighties.
Is my palate changing or am I on to something? What do you guys think?

[Blanquito]

I’ve been thinking this very thing for years. Even the top 86s tasted great by 2008 and were in the zone. Either the 95s and 96s need even more time than the big, hard, tannic 86s did — a real possibility, I think/hope — or the 80’d magic was lost even by then.

[JimHow]

Robert Parker ruined Bordeaux.

[Comte Flaneur]

oooo...controversial thread...

[Blanquito]

Robert Parker ruined Bordeaux.

Indeed. And he ruined cali cab and much of the Rhône too.

[jal]

oooo...controversial thread...

Ha! Just trying to distract everyone from:
Corona
Market crash
US Elections

[jal]

Robert Parker ruined Bordeaux.

Indeed. And he ruined cali cab and much of the Rhône too.

And Tuscany, and Australia

Thank goodness for
Burgundy
Piedmont
Rioja

[Ognik]

Every decade has its own style. 80s wines seemed to taste quite young and dull to me comparing to 50s and 60s stuff. Nonetheless I still think your right. Not sure what the 80s will taste in 20 or 30 years time. We' ll see.

[Nicklasss]

As i never tried the 80's Bordeaux when there were young, i'm looking forward what experienced BWEers have to say on the topic.

I'm also petty sure that if you make a curve of % alcohol vs time, it was stable from 1940 to 1990 and from 1990 it is going up. This saying more ripness or more rapid ripeness. I guess that a 12.5 % alcohol that the grape built slowly, is better than a 15 % slowly or a 14 % quickly. Is it the climate, Parker, other reasons?

Were the 80's Bordeaux just a bit more rustic, while now most are like velvety cashmere only?

So yes something has changed, but the question is: is it controlable?

Nic

[JimHow]

The 1988, 1989, 1990 versions of Lynch, Gruaud, Lagrange, etc., etc., that I drank in the late 1990s were different, better than these young wines I drink today. The lower alcohol and extraction made for more balanced wines. By the end if the 80s the influence of Parker had taken effect and Bordeaux was changed forever.

[jal]

Anecdotally, compare a 1983 Pichon Lalande drunk in 2002-2003 to a 1996 Pichon Lalande that you drink today and tell me the difference isn't enormous. They are obviously both excellent, but I can barely tell that the 1996 is a Bordeaux, let alone a Pauillac or a Pichon Lalande. And I'm not even sure it's Parker, maybe Nicolas is right, maybe it is alcohol and climate change. Or maybe the new breed needs more time.

Then again, maybe it's just me.

[Blanquito]

Bold Statement #276: In general and overall, I've never had a Bordeaux post-1990 that was as good as the Bordeaux from 1990 and earlier.

Of course, there were chateaux making dross or having a down period in the 80's that are much better now, but for good-to-great estates with a run of consistency we can compare over the decades, anything these chateaux made in 82, 83, 85, 86, 88, 89 and 90 (and probably even 78-81) is better than any vintage they have made subsequently*.

*This doesn't mean these subsequent wines are bad; many are terrific, but I just always seem to prefer what they made in the 80s.
**Some of these subsequent vintages may still need more time, but I am only giving them more time because they just aren't that good now or yet, especially in comparison to what they made in the 80s.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

Generally speaking, not since the 89s--points that is.

Ever notice there are no more 89-point Bordeaux anymore?

[Tom In DC]

Random thoughts...

Well, no one touts 89 point wine from anywhere anymore.

Wine-wise, I was a child of the 80's - they were cheap, plentiful and off-the-charts good. And good wines from the 70's, 60's and 50's were also cheap and plentiful. It was a great time to be a nascent oenophile.

Of course, most of the pundits thought the 82's were overripe caricatures of Bordeaux that would collapse before their tenth birthday. I recall our own AlexR, albeit after two decades, being in that camp around the turn of the century.

I can't agree with Blanquito (when did he get an uppercase inital letter?) on Bold Statement #276. 2000 Margaux, anyone?

1983 Pichon, coming from a very forward vintage, should have been more approachable at age 20 than the 1996 coming from a much more tannic vintage.

Cheers,
Tom

[Blanquito]

Great post, Tom. Never had the 2000 Chateau Margaux (better than the 83, 82, 90, 86? Wow!), but maybe wines like that are the exceptions which prove the rule?

Here’s a fun game: which Chateau which made great wine before 1991 have made better wine (or a better wine, singular, even) since 1991?

Tom nominates the 2000 Chateau Margaux.

I really can’t think of any that were better after 91, maybe that closest I can come up with is Ducru Beaucaillou.

[Tom In DC]

Our own Pontet-Canet?

[Tom In DC]

Clos Fourtet. Figeac. Vieux Chateau Certan.

[Tom In DC]

... but maybe wines like that are the exceptions which prove the rule?

Spoken like a true academic.

[Blanquito]

Bring it on, Tommy! I’ll see your Figeac and put forward a half a dozen pre-1991 vintages that will spank anything post! (though I’ll grant you that the 98 Figeac is gonna be brilliant someday).

[Comte Flaneur]

I have a lot of sympathy for the argument that the 80s wines are better because like many here I have followed their evolution for 30 years and now only have a few odd bottles left. I have an emotional attachment to these wines, and they are precious. For example I have one bottle left of 1982, 1985, 1988, 1989 and 1990 La Conseillante, and I am like the deer stuck in the headlights. I can’t open them and may not before they go over the hill, for fear of never drinking them again, ever.

But I don’t really believe it.

Modern wines are better and will turn out better.

A good example is what I regard as the benchmark Bordeaux Chateau, which I own more of than any other: Leoville Barton.

The Leoville Bartons from the 1980s are very good, especially 1985, 1988 and 1989. But the Leoville Bartons from 2000 onwards are unquestionably better in my opinion, even if they are generally still too young. Having said that you can derive enormous pleasure from a wine like the 2008 Leoville Barton.

In the 1980s there were some estates that had a purple patch. Pichon Lalande is the example that always comes to mind first. But also Gruaud Larose and La Conseillante. These estates made better wine in the 1980s than the 1990s. But better than what they are producing today? Probably not, especially for Pichon Lalande.

Chateau Margaux had a purple patch from 1978 onwards like Pichon Lalande, but the 1996 Ch Margaux is better than any wine produced there in the 1980s, and the 2010 is even better still - Tom I have not tried the 2000 since it was in diapers.

Jim said that Parker ruined Bordeaux. I think that is harsh. It would be more accurate to say that he led it in a direction towards more powerful and extracted wines, and not all estates went off on to the dark side. But that has been unwinding in the last decade.

The problem and challenge now is climate change and too much heat. 2016 had less heat and plenty of sunshine, combined with less extracted wines it is the perfect vintage and better than any from the 1980s.

[OrlandoRobert]

Generally speaking, not since the 89s--points that is.

Ever notice there are no more 89-point Bordeaux anymore?

Hey hey . . . I love 89 points!

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vi ... n#p2887622

That’s a very high B+. I’d be thrilled if my kid scored B+ grades every semester. And enjoy drinking classic, modest Bordeaux like this any day of the week.

[OrlandoRobert]

Personally I think the 1980s was the Gilded Age of Bordeaux.

I do not think wines of this generation will drink like many of those wines, especially not the Cordier stable of wines. The wines are cleaner now, riper fruit, and some very beautiful, but I do not think most will have the Bordeaux perfume that we all grew to love (yes, some brett melded in there).

I am not suggesting that wines of today are not as good, they are just different.

[JimHow]

Amen, my brother, I agree with everything you say, although I don't think I would describe the 1980s as a "Gilded Age," a derogatory term, but rather a "Golden Age."

[Blanquito]

Part of my attachment to 80’s era bordeaux is I love some rusticity in my wines as long as it comes with enough fruit and depth. And that is what the 80’s delivered in spades. Wines from that era are plenty ripe but come with loads of character and complexity. Many of the things that add character and complexity — for me — are considered flaws in the modern oenological framework. Things like green notes and brett and unsoftened tannins, and these things have been systematically wrung out of contemporary bordeaux, even by the “old school” producers. It’s not really a qualitative matter for me, but one of style.

So the style has changed and thus for me, modern bordeaux are unlikely to ever be as exciting, complex, and compete as what came before. That’s fine, life goes on, good modern bordeaux is still good, sometimes really good.

[stefan]

The 1980s was the best decade for Bordeaux in my experience. Too bad François is no longer on BWE to explain why some earlier vintages were superior.

I have little experience with Bordeaux from the last decade, but those I have drunk from 2000-2009 suggest that this decade might surpass 1970-1979, especially if the 2009s develop as well as I think they will. Some like to trash 1960-1969, but I drank many outstanding wines from this decade. 1961 is of course a classic vintage, but there were many good wines from 1962, 1964, and 1966. Actually, the only bad wines from these years were some 1964 Medocs, and they were not awful, just diluted. 1967 was also good across the board for drinking early, and I regret passing on too many 1960s. The main problem with the 1960s was that there was nothing of interest (at least in my experience) from 1963, 1965, and 1968 (here I talk only about red Bordeaux), and 1969 was pretty weak.

I agree with Jacques that young wines (say, from the decade 2000-2009) are different from young wines from 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. They tend to be more fruit forward, for one thing, and perhaps less distinctive. At the beginning of BWE, Mr Vino and I noticed that the 1996 La Lagune was very attractive young, and that worried us. However, it has turned out that this vintage of La Lagune never went to sleep and has been consistently good since 2000. Nevertheless, the 1996 La Lagune is quintessentially La Lagune, unlike some recent vintages of many estates. I wish that I were not coming to the end of my third case of this beauty.

[JimHow]

The first time I met Stefan Johnson he was uncorking a couple bottles of 1986 Gruaud Larose, in Chacago, February 2001.

'Nuff said.

[OrlandoRobert]

Part of my attachment to 80’s era bordeaux is I love some rusticity in my wines as long as it comes with enough fruit and depth. And that is what the 80’s delivered in spades. Wines from that era are plenty ripe but come with loads of character and complexity. Many of the things that add character and complexity — for me — are considered flaws in the modern oenological framework. Things like green notes and brett and unsoftened tannins, and these things have been systematically wrung out of contemporary bordeaux, even by the “old school” producers. It’s not really a qualitative matter for me, but one of style.

So the style has changed and thus for me, modern bordeaux are unlikely to ever be as exciting, complex, and compete as what came before. That’s fine, life goes on, good modern bordeaux is still good, sometimes really good.

I could not have said this better myself. I think you have heard me say “elegant rusticity”. That’s my emotional center.

We have a thread on WB regarding Loire Cab Franc. Probably one of the better critics for Loire, Chris Kissack, joined in the conversation. It was interesting to see the discussion evolve, as it hit me squarely, he does not see Loire the way I do. He wants the region to move modern like Bordeaux. He eschews green notes and Brett, and thinks wines like Raffault, Breton and Plouzeau have had their day, and producers like Theirrry Germain are what’s in. This is like turning your back on 1980s Bordeaux. Same discussion.

Most of us - especially those of us in our 50s and you more experienced guys in your 60s - grew up with these wines of such character. I’m not searching then or now for perfection. Perfection can be boring. I want distinction. Character. Sense of place. Honesty and transparency. That, my friends, is my Bordeaux. My Chinon.

To Jim’s last post, I could easily make the case that that 1986 Gruard Larose is the greatest non-First Growth Bordeaux ever made. I have also made the case that the 1986 Meyney is the greatest Bordeaux QPR ever made. Even today. Both are stunning.

And yes, both by Cordier.

[JimHow]

Yep.

[Racer Chris]

I don't have any of that sentimentality for wines from decades ago having only become interested in Bordeaux since 2014. I've been fortunate to experience a good variety of well stored examples from the late '70s thru the '80s. As good as some of them have been, I would say many should have been consumed a decade or more earlier because they just weren't great wines.
On the other hand, I've been enjoying a broad variety of young inexpensive (under $25) Bordeaux on a near daily basis since 2014, starting with the 2009 vintage. Many of them have the "rusticity" (without the brett) I keep hearing is what made those bottles from the '80s so appealing, and these will still be 89 and 90 point wines in 20 years if I keep them that long.

Here's a note I just wrote for a $20 bottle of 2010 Ch. La Cardonne I drank early this week:
"On opening this was old school, showing a green streak with little fruit to balance it. However with a little air it became well balanced, medium full bodied and youthful, with plenty of red and black cherry/berry fruit to make the slight bitterness a pleasing accent. Very nice now, and I still see some upside to keeping these around a while longer."
90 pts

I have 4 bottles left but I doubt I'll hold them past 2025. I bought wines like this to help keep my hands off the classified growths that I have higher hopes for.

[Blanquito]

A good example is what I regard as the benchmark Bordeaux Chateau, which I own more of than any other: Leoville Barton.

The Leoville Bartons from the 1980s are very good, especially 1985, 1988 and 1989. But the Leoville Bartons from 2000 onwards are unquestionably better in my opinion, even if they are generally still too young. Having said that you can derive enormous pleasure from a wine like the 2008 Leoville Barton..

I don’t drink enough First Growths to have any opinion at all on their changing quality and style through the years, but I do get to try Leoville Barton fairly regularly for the 70’s and on. And I completely agree they are making much better wines today — I nearly nominated Barton for ”better now” rather than Ducru, but thinking about it I decided I don’t really love Barton in the 80’s the way I do so many other chateau. Only the 1990 Barton really shines for me from that era.

[Claret]

Last nights 1996 Lagrange makes a good cases for 1996 being the last really good sort of 80's vintage. No overripe issue with defining structure and balanced fruit.

[AKR]

This whole discussion reminds me of the barroom banter over "there's been no good ballplayers since these guys...."



We are living in an astonishing era for fine wine.

Its never been easier to find wine, buy it, get it shipped, talk about it, read notes, gather up tasting groups, and so on.

I will never lack for something delicious to drink.

[jal]

I put it in bold in the post but I'll say it again:

there have been great wines made in Bordeaux but very few of them taste like the ones made in the 80s.

And at the risk of sounding like an old fart, I enjoyed watching Bird vs the Dr much more than I enjoy the highfalutin, high tempo NBA game of today.

[Blanquito]

80’s era NFL was great too.

[OrlandoRobert]

80’s era NFL was great too.

And the last era or great, risk-free sex!

And before the dreaded shave trend took hold!

[Blanquito]

I missed that thread on Chinon and Kissak. I guess I’m a little surprised he’d feel that way about the old school classics of the Loire, but maybe it’s an occupational hazard of clinically testing and evaluating the new releases year after year. They don’t get to just sit and enjoy a single bottle of wine over dinner most of the time, but that’s how the rest interact with wine. Plus the critics need to think they’re providing a service by trying new wines. If everyone believed the old way was better, what’s there to write about? Not sure really. But a local wine buddy is a semi-pro critic of Italian wines, and despite having a very old school palate and sensibility, he spends 95% of his time trying new releases which really don’t do anything for me.

[Nicklasss]

Ok, let say now what Chateaux have been better since 1990? I agree on Léoville Barton. Léoville Las Cases might also enter the category. Pontet Canet also, and probably Montrose. Cantemerle, Ducru Beaucaillou, Branaire Ducru and the Pichons? I think that Haut Bailly and Pape Clément are probably better since 1990.

Of course, Lynch Bages and the Cordier wines seemed to have trouble since the 90's.

For Saint Émilion, tougher to say. For Pomerol, i would say general improvement since 1990, except Petrus and Lafleur that have always been great since a long time.

But I think like many, like i wrote in a previous post, that the rusticity elegance of the 80's Bordeaux, match with good freshness and low alcohol is something special and very appreciable. They were and are still drinking great, but I guess the best recent Bordeaux will be even more special and great, when they'll be on their right spot.

Just try the 2008 Léoville Barton, the 2012 Léoville Las Cases, the 2009 Calon Segur or the 2010 Cantemerle. Or the trio of 2008-2009-2010 Pichon Baron we had in 2015 at the Chateau...

Bordeaux will always be Bordeaux : producing our favorite wines, old, medium or modern vintages.

Nic

[Claudius2]

Nicklass,
I think that there has been considerable improvement in the quality of Bordeaux in my lifetime, though I'd say the same for Burgundy to even a greater degree.
I think that the average quality of St Emilion wines has improved greatly, even if there are the usual debates over the style of the wines produced by some.
The alcohol level in some estates is however a little concerning to me.
I now have more right bank wines than left bank - and that was never the case until recently.
Also there are reasonable values to be had in the St Emilion satellites and Lalande de Pomerol, pus a few surrounding Cotes such as Castillon and Cotes de Francs.

In the Medoc, I'd argue that Margaux has improved more than any other appellation though from a lower base.
Examples would be Giscours, Malescot, Priure Lichine, Cantenac Brown, Labegorce (recently) and La Lagune in the Haut Medoc to the south of Margaux.
Others may also add Lascombes and Brane Cantenac but I have had numerous uninspiring wines from both.
Even a few decades ago, I tended to avoid Margaux other than a few top estates but now there is much improvement though maybe still a few under-achievers.
I have always liked St Julien and it is now a relative value in the Medoc.

Can I suggest a few St Emilions now worth trying:

Laroque (last few vintages only)
Fleur Cardinale
Bellefont Belcier
Dominique
Moulin St Georges
Confession
Monbousquet
Clos L'Oratoire
Fonroque
L'Arrosee
Larcis Ducasse.

I can't guarantee that you will like them, though I focus these days on wines offering reasonable value rather than the very top wines.

[Jürgen Steinke]

I taste, buy and drink Bordeaux for more than 30 years. And I have hard times thinking that 70th and even 80th Bordeaux was/is better than today. Knowing that many many Chateaux did not care much for the health of their vineyards and cleanliness in their cellars. Tons of chemicals were sprayed, no or little selection of fruit, old barrels full of brett and so forth. And vintages like 1972, 1973, 1974, 1977, 1980, 1984 and 1987 which were very difficult and wines with average quality at best. Many wines almost undrinkable due to shrill acid and/or green tannins. Some Chateaux produced fabulous wines in 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990. But the number of Chateaux who are in fine form today is very much bigger. Look how many Crus Bourgeoise are producing very good wines today. How many did in the 70th and 80th las century. There were some such as Poujeaux, Lanessan and a few others. Today you find dozens worth of buying and drinking.

[DavidG]

Simple answer: yes, but most of them don’t thrill me the way the best of the ‘80s do.

And I’m one of those who kept saying give them more time. I’m still waiting on some, popping corks on others, and enjoying plenty of good wines, but they’re not usually offering the same mix of gutsy earthy complexity that were reliably delivered by my favorites of the '80s. Warmer weather combined with winemaker desire for greater ripeness (and attendant higher alcohol levels) would seem to be the likely cause, but there are a lot of other details about winemaking that I know nothing about.

Parker certainly encouraged the move to riper, glossier wines but he wasn’t the only factor and he didn’t force consumers to keep buying high-scored wines they didn’t like. Americans like higher alcohol, riper/fruitier wines. We’re the outliers here. I don’t blame the Châteaux for following the money.

Question is, with the warmer weather can the winemakers (if they wanted to) take steps that would bring back the '80s?