2012 Neudorf Moutere (Nelson, NZ) PN and NZ wines generally

[Claudius2]

I really can't recall if I have ever seen a New Zealand (NZ) wine reviewed here.
Not entirely surprising but there is now quite a lot of wine made there.
This is quite a well renowned wine in NZ and has also done well in Australian wine shows.
There is a decent and quite complex chardy made from the same vineyard.
It is from Nelson, which is in the north of the South Island, maybe a hour's drive from Marlborough.

I am still trying however to understand this wine.
On opening (it was in a wine fridge at 14C) the nose was quite Burgundian - earth, mushrooms, a touch of mocha, some sweet fruit, spice and oak.
The first sip showed a lot of sweet and almost cloying fruit. There was evident oak (vanilla, cinnamon, mocha etc) and moderate acid and tannins.
As it developed, it fleetingly showed some complexity and interest, the overt sweetness being balanced with more depth of flavour.
Yet soon after, it simply fell apart. After an hour in an air conditioned environment, it seemed angular, unbalanced, slightly bitter at the end, and rather unpleasant.
I have one more in the wine fridge and have to say I am not looking forward to it.

I actually like NZ, unless of course we are playing them in rugby. In Australia, it is the land "across the ditch".
I have also toured the wine regions several times, and have found a few wines that I like.
But I can't handle Sav Blanc at the best of times, find the other whites generally too sweet and have to search long and hard to find a red I like.
I can name a handful of Pinots that are pretty good, but the Neudorf was not among them.

My question is whether anyone else has ever tried this wine, and what they generally think of NZ wines.

[stefan]

I have never tasted a New Zealand PN, and, with all the good PN I drink, I have no motivation to try them. NZ Sauvignon Blanc has been received pretty well in the USA. Some I have drunk were OK but did not convince me to explore further.

[Chateau Vin]

Same here. Never tasted NZ Pinot and can’t comment on that. As much as I love Burgundy, thanks to stefan, I got hooked on to some high quality Oregon pinots, and courtesy jacques, I found some real gems of RR pinots... I just go for these new worlds...

As for Sauvignon blanc, I used to like the NZ ones, but I feel that these days they are more fruity and I pass on them too. I would like to have a SB true to its varietal, but don’t see that in NZ wines anymore. Maybe there are some producers whom I don’t know or tried...

[Jay Winton]

I've had some good NZ pinots but never a great one. They probably don't export the best ones. Mostly screwcaps which, as usual, adds freshness and never corked.

[AKR]

I've tried a few NZ PN and generally liked them, a touch fresher than the Russian River ones I favor (but still drink infrequently). I do appreciate the screwcaps though.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I was in North Island a couple of years ago. Toured a couple of regions including Martinborough (not Marlborough) and Hawke's Bay/Napier. I really liked what I had there, including pinots, sauvignon blancs, chards, gerwurtraminers, cabernets and even a syrah. Not all of course (among the pinots especially there was a range of styles), but the common thread appears as cool climate restraint. I particularly enjoyed stops at Colombo (very serious pinot and chardonnay) and Poppies in Martinborough and Mission in Napier. I've had a few of the more common pinots and sauvignon blancs from South Island, and ordered a couple of sampler cases from K&L to try some of their picks, which you will never find on the supermarket shelves or restaurant lists here in the US. My bottom line is if I were restricted to drinking only wines from NZ, I would be just fine.

[dstgolf]

Wehave enjoyed many NZ Sauvignon Blanc over the years and my wife especially loves them one her preferable daily drinkers. I enjoy them but they tend to have a high sulfite content which causes a great deal of uncomfortable flushing in me along with nausea so I tend to avoid them. A few sips of Whitehaven last night before dinner had me in full flush.

The NZ pinot noir generally not to my style and and I have had quite a few. My buddy has been to NZ a few times and visited many wineries during his lengthy stays becoming quite partial to them. He has introduced us to some of his favourites and when we've had our events I must say they have paled to the Burgs that were served up in a similar price range. I'd compare them to Oregon meets California and typically less overdone than most Cali pinots. Felton Road is one of his favourites but for $90 cdn there are too many 1er cru Burgs in that range that bring more joy to our lives and similarly Bordeaux still rules.

[Comte Flaneur]

NZ wines have had an outsized foot print in the UK market from the days when Cloudy Bay SB took on cult status, about 30 years ago.

I think I am right in saying that Kevin Judd the original wine maker now makes Greywacke one of the better kiwi SBs available today.

Am not a big fan of either their SBs or PNs as they tend to suffer from rapidly diminishing marginal utility: glass one is so much better than glass two and glass three is a toss up and glass four you are below the horizontal axis.

I know Neudorf Moutere pretty well. It is one of the best chardonnays they produce possibly the best. The 2014 scored 100 points according to a kiwi MW. I bought a case. It is a very good wine but less deserving of the 100 point accolade than Mouton 88.

Another celebrated kiwi wine is Kumeu River - the various Chardonnays - which specialises in winning blind tastings against renowned white burgundies. But there is a world of difference between a blind tasting and spending time with a bottle. I am not entirely convinced by Kumeu River but it can offer excellent value mid range Chardonnay.

[Ianjaig]

I’m from NZ (i.e. a “Kiwi”) and have been living here again for the last 15 years or so having returned from the U.K, so feel reasonably qualified to comment on the state of NZ wines

My take on the wines here are:

1) The reds are typically quite expensive (and unjustifiably so in my opinion). Just a few weeks ago, some friends and I went to Waiheke Island to sample the wines and I couldn’t believe the prices they were charging.
2) The best two areas for Pinot are ‘Martinborough’ and ‘Central Otago’ with their styles quite different. I prefer PNs from Martinborough as they are slightly more Burgundian in style in comparison to those from Central Otago. FYI - Sam Neil (the actor) owns a vineyard in Central Otago – Two Paddocks. Good PNs to look out for are Martinborough PN (name of the actual producer), Ata Rangi and Dry River. I’m pretty sure I have tried the Neudorf PN before, and didn’t think much of it TBH.
3) The NZ Syrah’s are pretty good though (and reasonably priced) and are very different in style from Australian Shiraz. Dare I say it, more Northern Rhone like I guess.
4) Sav Blanc and Chardonnay are very well priced as well (as are all the whites really). I’m not much of a Sav Blanc fan (unfortunately given the quality of the SBs here) but if I do drink any, I have a preference for those from Hawkes Bay (rather than Marlborough).

I have no idea if these producers are available overseas or not, but if I had to list the best producers across a range of varieties, I would say that they would be 1) Te Mata Estate & 2) Craggy Range. Cloudy Bay is of course the most famous producer but there are plenty of wines better than what they produce at half the cost in my opinion.

Hope the above helps.
Ian

[Claudius2]

Ianjaig
Wow, I did not realise that there were any kiwis here.
I have only tried a handful of NZ PNs that I thought showed really well, but I'd say the same thing about Australian PN.
Too often Aust PN smells and tastes like strawberry and cream, and that style has never appealed to me.

A few good NZ wines I have tried include Martinborough Estate, Pegasus Bay, Te Kairanga, Spy Valley and Rockburn. Never tried Dry River, hard to get just about anywhere.
In general, I like the Martinborough wines and they seem to be more consistent.
Is there still a winery making good PN called Chestnut Grove? (Not the WA winery).
It won the PN category at the Sydney International Wine Show some years ago but seems to have changed hands or name.

A local importer holds Pinot Noir duels every now and then, pitting Aust, NZ, Oregon/Calif and Burgundy against each other.
The tasting group often falls into different camps based on the style. However, the NZ wines normally show quite well.

In recent years, Central Otago has got a lot of attention.
A few CO wines are fairly popular here in Singapore, such as Gibbston Valley and Misha's Vineyard.
I see more NZ PNs here than Australian PNs.

I have one more bottle of the 2012 Neudorf Moutere and will try it in the next year or so.

[stefan]

>>
Oregon/Calif
>>

Do you realize what an insult it is to Oregon Pinot Noir to lump it into a group with CA PN?

[Claudius2]

Stefan
No I didn't but that was how the tasting above was organised.
All USA PN's were put in the same group.
The Aust and NZ wines also came from different regions, some being the other side of the country, yet were grouped without any protests.

I can only presume that the Oregon makers think their wines are better.

[brodway]

I think the NZ Sauvignon Blancs certainly have their place in the wine cabinet. On hot summer days, i find a nicely chilled NZ SB is crisp and full of exotic flavors that one doesn't get from California SB which tend to be fatter and less crisp. There are some wine makers in California that do subscribe to the idea of a cleaner more polished SB. On my last trip to Napa i came across a Napa SB Alpha Omega that displays some of the characteristics of the NZ SB. I've had a variety of NZ SB's and i tend to prefer the ones with the juicier profile exhibiting caribbean mango, tropical melon and quince rather than the leaner grassy variety. They are superb values.

AS for NZ Pinot, from limited experience, the most delicious ones i've had were from Escarpment and Foxes Island. The ones i enjoy generally have fruit profiles that i don't experience in Oregon California or Burgundy.

[Claudius2]

Brodway
Sorry to disagree. I just can’t handle NZ SB.
I actually like NZ and have nothing against the place.
I just can’t handle the pungent green flavour. It was maybe 40 yrs ago that I first toured NZ wine regions.
The varieties have changed - not much Muller Thurgau now - but I just can’t get my palate or head around Sav Blanc.
So I opened another 2010 Berthaut Fixin Arvelets 1er Cru 2010. This wine never tasted better. C’est is vie.
Having said that I have some love for Riesling and if I want a lighter aromatic white I will open one of them.

[brodway]

Claudius

i don't necessarily reach for NZ Sauvignon Blanc as my go to white, and as i mentioned in the post above also don't enjoy the greenish and pungent profile of many of them. Having said that i used to select wines for a friend who used to own several wine shops nearby and have tasted dozens of different NZ Sauvignon Blancs 15-20 years ago and stylistically there are some that are not heavy on the grass and more juicy and display exotic fruit elements. I usually prefer those more.

If i had to choose any white wine, however, i'd usually opt for a clean minerally Chablis and that is what i've been acquiring more of. Also have been drinking more of Sancerre and find that my palate prefers a cleaner less oaky profile as far as whites go.

My next project is to experiment whites from Maconnais. Can't say i have any experience with them but recently read a piece on an up and coming wine maker Domaine Frantz Chagnoleau and would like to see what it is they offer.

[Claudius2]

Brodway
Why not head a little further north to Meursault, Chassange and Puligny Montrachet and even Corton Charlemagne?
I actually like Chablis but I am finding that a lot of it simply does not taste like "Chablis" to me.
I mean, it lacks that acidity, slaty minerality and precision that I actually enjoy.
The Macon tends to make lighter Chardonnays but I think over the years the quality has improved.
One maker I have tried that are making richer, more complex wines are the Bret Brothers (not to be confused with Brettanomyces),

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I have no idea if these producers are available overseas or not, but if I had to list the best producers across a range of varieties, I would say that they would be 1) Te Mata Estate & 2) Craggy Range. Cloudy Bay is of course the most famous producer but there are plenty of wines better than what they produce at half the cost in my opinion.

We tasted a Te Mata and I liked the wines. I wish I had purchased some Coleraine then or immediately on returning home (K&L sometimes has this) as it seems to have increased in price. I think their second wine after Coleraine is supposed to be fine as well.

I did not find prices unreasonable at all. But maybe that was because I found things nominally priced the same as in American dollars (as in an item, meal or wine that I would expect to pay $30 USD for cost $30NZD), except that my USD bought 1.5 NZD at the time.

[DavidG]

Claudius, I share your preference for white Burgs over Sauvignon Blanc (by a mile!) but not your aversion to the latter.

My favorite Sauvignon Blancs come from the Loire. How do you feel about Sancerre, Pouilly Fumé, or Touraine? Daguenau, Cotat, Vatan, Crochet are all very good and much better for my palate than versions from NZ. Or Bordeaux, where I really don’t care for the dry whites (Haut Brion Blanc excepted!).

That said, I rarely buy Loire Sauvignon Blanc either due to price/availability or preference for Champagne, Burgundy, or German Riesling when in the mood for a white wine.

[Ianjaig]

Sorry, I’ve never heard of Chestnut Grove, Claudius 2. The producers over here are all very “boutique” however, and are often bought up by bigger brands. Perhaps that has happened with this producer? You weren’t by any chance thinking of Walnut Ridge from Martinborough?

[brodway]

Cladius

Have tasted all those appellations of the Burgundy region....much of Puligny, Chassagne and Batard have risen to trophy status pricing. Corton used to be a phenomenal value for a more focused, clean drink, but those are not inexpensive either. Always on the lookout for something new, but i guess the more things change the more they stay the same

[Ianjaig]

We tasted a Te Mata and I liked the wines. I wish I had purchased some Coleraine then or immediately on returning home (K&L sometimes has this) as it seems to have increased in price. I think their second wine after Coleraine is supposed to be fine as well.

I did not find prices unreasonable at all. But maybe that was because I found things nominally priced the same as in American dollars (as in an item, meal or wine that I would expect to pay $30 USD for cost $30NZD), except that my USD bought 1.5 NZD at the time.

Yes, that would be the Awatea (Cabernet Merlot) which is good value and a decent stab at being Bordeaux. The two Te Mata wines that I consistently have in my cellar are the Bullnose (Syrah) and Elston (Chardonnay). Both reward cellaring. If you do ever see them, I would recommend trying them.

Good to hear that the prices haven’t been too restrictive – perhaps that’s the exchange rate swinging in your favour. By way of comparison, the Te Mata Coleraine 2018 sells for circa $120 (NZ) here. For that I can buy a La Lagune or a Saint Pierre or several other Bordeaux’s that offer greater complexity and depth IMO. But then again, I do have an obvious bias ...

[Claudius2]

Brodway
For some reason, the cost of red and white Burgundy has really got out of hand.
Importers keep sending me price lists and I just about choke.
I have partly got around this by importing my own wines from Beaune (Remoissenet and a few others) and if I can be reasonably sure of their condition, from auctions.
In relation to Remoissenet, the CD prices were about E35 for good 1ers Crus from Chasange or Meursault, a bit more for similarly ranked Pulignys and E70 for the Corton Charlie.
My last purchase of CC was E50, so I passed on it for my last order.
However, the Givry 2014/5 only cost E9,50 which is a very low price for a nice minerally, light to medium bodied white Burgundy (Givy is the Cotes Du Chalonnaise).
The Chalonnaise region is located directly between the Cotes D'or and the Macon, just below Chagny.
The prices from this area are now starting to move upward, and some of the reds have already garnered some attention (e.g., the Faiveley Mercurey wines).
I probably should have mentioned this before, but I think there are decent whites from Montagny, Givry and Rully.
Another area you could try is St Aubin. It borders both Chasagne and Puligny Montrachet, offering wines in a similar style but without the complexity or length of the two more renowned neighbours.

Ian
Now you say that, I really can't remember.
It was about 15-20 yrs ago.
I thought it definitely had "Grove" in it.
I visited the estate and it was run by an American guy.
Not to worry.

I have drunk Coleraine a few times - purchased in Australia thru Langtons auction - and its a pretty good wine.
But NZ reds tend to be quite expensive downunder and I have not tried it for at least a decade.
The only NZ wines that are ever seen here are Cloudy bay, a few Sav Blancs, and a few PN's.
I really can't recall seeing anyone with Cab/s or Syrah for sale here.

One last point about Sav Blanc.
I have tried a few Margaret River SSB's that are quite okay, and occasionally Pouilly Fume and Sancerre, but they are quite expensive here so most of the time I just pick something else.

[brodway]

i used to drink Montagny and Mercurey when i was a starving student....i remember the days when i used to see these advertised by the front door for $9.99 per bottle...i always thought they were somewhat complex and flavorful wines.

It seems in Burgundy, 100 feet left or right could mean the difference between paying $200 per bottle or $20 per bottle...This climat thing is difficult to digest

please share your thoughts on Pouilly Fume, Pouilly Fuisse and Sancerre too ....i'm finding these more and more interesting

appreciate above thoughts on Bret Brothers...will try one if i see them

[brodway]

François Lumpp Givry 1er Cru A Vigne Rouge and Domaine Joblot Givry 1er Cru Clos de la Servoisine are over $40 a bottle...did not realize this region had gained this much popularity