NM on the 2010 Vintage

[OrlandoRobert]

I feel exactly the same way CV about alcohol. I am on record for saying this, and echoing Robert and Mark’s distaste for highly alcoholic right banks. I just remain to be convinced that these wines are a write off.

Robert provided an impressive list of offenders, but among the more serious estates the jury is surely still out. When I last tried 2005 Pavie I found it verging on abhorrent. But can I exclude the possibility that this will be magnificent in 20-30 years? Absolutely not. That is the market, which is more knowledgeable than any of us, which doesn’t mean we can’t bet against it. Pape Clement went very modern around 2000: who’s to say how the 2005 evolves?

Since this is a civil debate - yes, pun intended - not a criminal debate, the jury only needs a preponderance of the evidence to rule. That's 51%. We are there! I'm at 98.5%!

I do think these now modern wines from great terroirs will do better than these amped up wines from lesser terroirs. The latter definitely fall apart whereas the former remain more staunchly in the opulent realm. That 2005 Clos Fourtet was there.

For me, it just makes zero sense to keep buying any of them when there are alternatives that I love, have loved and will continue to love in the future (I hope, aging palate excepted) from historic, classic estates that have remained classic. Classic, and class, never goes out of style.

[Nicklasss]

In the older 2016 alcohol discussion thread, this is the last post i did :

"From the info on the Net, seem like 1947 Chateau Cheval Blanc is 14.4 % alcohol, and the 1961 Chateau Latour à Pomerol between 14.5 and 15 %. Both were very atypical even in their respective warm vintage.

Nic"

From these two examples (if what i wrote then is true), i guess that high alcohol red Bordeaux wines aren't good wines and are ageing badly.

Nic

[Nicklasss]

A fair answer from 2011 from the WS popular board:

No, it doesn’t. A wine’s alcohol percentage is determined during the fermentation process, when sugar is converted to alcohol. Once the fermentation process is over, the alcohol level remains constant.

But the way that the alcohol is perceived can seem to change over time. As phenolic compounds link and some of the wine’s primary flavors fade (and its secondary flavors become more prominent), there might be different points in the wine’s aging process in which the alcohol seems more or less pronounced.

Nic

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

Interesting thread for the most part. Looks like maybe I should be thankful I didn't buy too many 10s. And maybe when NM describes Talbot as blah in the context of the St. Juliens, I should be thankful as well. I did try one on release and thought it was pretty typical claret with some scale, cut and nervosity. Certainly it did not bowl me over with power, fruit and alcohol. Might have dodged a bullet.

[Musigny 151]

I went to get my recent notes.

I thought the score for Beychevelle was low; I had a bottle recently, and although young, it had tremendous potential. The other sleepers were Giscours and Rauzan Segla. Margaux the appellation was splendid generally. The Alter Ego, the second wine of Palmer, sorry I misspoke, they say it is not the second wine, but a different expression of Palmer, was far and away the best I have ever tasted from the property.

The Palmer itself was special, for me a tad better than Margaux. I have been going to Bordeaux since 1988, and always wondered if the 1961 was a fluke, a once n a lifetime wine. As I tasted every great vintage, I would think it s good, but not the 1961. With the 2010, I think perhaps we may have something. I bought a case, and opened a bottle on my birthday, last year. Everything is there, nothing changed my mind. I am convinced. Neil Martin’s score of 96 is low.

[Blanquito]

I have fairly consistently preferred 2009 to 2010 when tasting them next to each other (an interesting exception is Leoville Poyferre). As Neal Mollen hints in this article, the tannins in 2010 tend to be raspy and overbearing, That is hopefully a problem that will fix itself with age, but as Mark says excessive alcohol is a larger issue and cannot be expected to go away with age. 2009 is of course somewhat alcoholic as well but in that case the size of the wines feel less "forced"/extracted and more natural.

I view 2010 as the end of the road to "bigger is better" trend that may have started in 2000, increased in 2005, and then was reflected in 2010. Those are all vin de garde vintages but I love 2000 because I feel like they hadn't gone too far down that road and a lot of wines show a good classical balance. In 2005 you started to see really out of balance wines on the right bank. Then in 2010 there is some on both banks.

I agree with everything you say here.

[OrlandoRobert]

Yes that was well said about 2010 being the end of the road. So we hope. There is a reason some of us load up more in vintages like 2014 over the vintages critics go nuts over. I need to backfill more 2008.

[Blanquito]

.
.


Yea put me in Mark’s camp. At least for my country palate, alcohol never integrates. Ever. I actually think it’s presence becomes more noticeable on wines as the youthful fruit starts to fade and the wine moves into the secondary and tertiary stages. It is a rare wine indeed, IMHO, that can handle 15%+ without showing it. That number alone causes me not to buy, generally. And 2010 had lots of those monsters on the right bank. I stuck to Northern Medoc in this rather alcoholic vintage.

Robert, or Mark, as a matter of interest do you have any specific examples of wines which started off with excess alcohol where it never integrated. I ask because a generation ago wines in general and Bordeaux in particular were much lower in alcohol and good Bordeaux takes the best part of a generation to mature fully. So for a 2010 right bank surely the jury is still out. I have no agenda here, just curious.

That's surely the question, Ian. I think stefan was also alluding to that in previous discussions.

Some of us are in the camp that alcohol will integrate over a period of time and some of us believe otherwise. As we don't have wines from the 80s with around 15% alc (maybe some of veterans can correct me if I am wrong), it's hard to know which camp is closer to being right. We started to see such high alcohol bordeaux only lately, a dozen or so years ago, and we will have a better answer maybe 20 or 25 years from now. Until we have evidence based conclusion, we can only base our opinions on logical/scientific beliefs...

I agree an interesting question, and I spent a few minutes trying to come up with an answer. I don’t think I have come across a vintage with as many 15+% wines as 2009 and 2010. I remember the complaint earlier than that was extraction, and the extraction of the bad stuff as well as the good.


So I agree we haven’t seen a vintage go to its final maturity. But it takes a Trumpian disdain of science to think that high levels of alcohol will somehow magically change over time. It is a constant, and the chemical formula c2H6o will be the same year one as year 100.[/quote]

Could be apples and oranges, but the boozy heat on 2007 CDP never integrated (speaking about palate perception). Indeed they’ve gone from bad to undrinkably bad in my opinion.

[OrlandoRobert]

In the older 2016 alcohol discussion thread, this is the last post i did :

"From the info on the Net, seem like 1947 Chateau Cheval Blanc is 14.4 % alcohol, and the 1961 Chateau Latour à Pomerol between 14.5 and 15 %. Both were very atypical even in their respective warm vintage.

Nic"

From these two examples (if what i wrote then is true), i guess that high alcohol red Bordeaux wines aren't good wines and are ageing badly.

Nic

Parker called the 1947 Cheval Blanc, “port-like”. Of course I would love to try this wine, but I don’t really love Port and I definitely don’t want my Bordeaux to taste like Port. Gotta keep that reference in mind commenting on this supposed elixer.

Anyone here try it?

[JimHow]

Has the 1947 Cheval Blanc existed in the past 20-30 years?

Wines like this and the '45 Mouton sound like myths to me.

Who has had the '44 Mouton lately?

Or the '46 Margaux?

These wines are long gone. Hell, even when we visited the legendary cellar at Latour in 2015 I was struck by how few bottles they had in stock of the epic vintages.

I'll bet you there aren't six legitimate bottles of '47 Cheval Blanc out there in the world right now.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of port.

[AKR]

That's funny, I think Maureen was telling me something like that too. She had to fly out somewhere some years ago to check out a magnum of 47 C-B, and I think she ended up having to tell the owners that it was basically artwork.

Maybe I'm mis remembering it, but I suspect many of those older legends are long gone.

[Musigny 151]

There are some very famous wines that were considered among the greatest ever in the last century. I have been lucky enough to taste many of them, and although I can point to a few monumental ones, there were a number of Right Bank legends I really disliked. Among them were Cheval 1947, Latour a Pomerol 1961 and Lafleur 1975 and 1979.

For me, they were indeed “porty”, slightly bitter sweet, leaving a strong impression of raisins and dates. Acidity was low, and given the times they were grown, all seemed freakishly overripe.

For years Parker pointed to the Cheval as justification for the type of wine he liked and was pushing as archetypes for the Right Bank. Yes, it was still in decent shape when I tasted it both in 1999 and 2009, but it had not developed tertiary flavors, it seemed just soft and fat, and...well you’ve got the gist. I think Parker did a lot of good, but this is where he got things horribly wrong, and we still are seeing the effects. Cheval Blanc 1947 and it’s ilk is not a glorious expression of Bordeaux, and I know that in twenty years, some poor sod who paid a fortune for his 2010 Angelus will be wondering what the heck happened.

[JimHow]

I think Parker did a lot of good, but this is where he got things horribly wrong, and we still are seeing the effects.

Amen, my brother.

[Nicklasss]

If I come back to 2010, I guess we can't say it is a great vintage if the Right Bank wines did not make it. I would consider a vintage great when there are many great red Bordeaux in all areas. I'm not sure i bought 2010 Right Bank. Last time i opened a 2010, it was Du Tertre. A bigger Du Tertre than some other vintages, quite good, but i agree that i will open the next one in 5 years and decant 2 hours.

If i come back to alcohol in wine, i'm not for or against higher alcohol in Bordeaux. Me too, I seem to look for lower alcohol wines generally, but when you have talented teams at a Chateau (vine growing, grape selection, winemaking, ageing), i'm sure a 15 % La Mission Haut Brion for example, is a great wine now and for a long time, very balanced. But if you want to avoid that wine, you're right too.

We need a blind tasting in 10 or 15 years, for BWE to tell the truth.

Next question: are you ready to drink your screwcap Chateau Margaux?

Nic

[robertgoulet]

Guys
I bought quite a lot of 2010’s en primeur from the Medoc, Graves/Pessac and Right Bank.
The wines I tried at tastings were very good and I thought the wines were more consistent and had slightly better balance than 2009’s. And I also bought plenty of them too. I sold most of my older wine at auction and some privately as it was too hard to ship here.
I have rarely found any wine from Bordeaux to be overly alcoholic and obviously hot and unbalanced. I think that a few Merlot based wines from 2005 and later showed too much alc for me.
However the older I get the less accepting I am of hot alcohol in any wine.
As a general rule I will no longer buy any wine over 15% alc. it isn’t just the alc that is the problem it is also that I can’t handle overt sweetness (except in botrytised and fortified wines).
At the same time I don’t agree with the Modern Vs Traditional dichotomy. Bordeaux has changed over the years as have wines from just about everywhere. But there are way fewer faulty wines and plenty of wine to suit everyone. even in the Barossa there are still plenty of makers who eschew hi alc wines and make beautifully balanced and long lived wines.

I even try to avoid 14+....it gets harder and harder...forget right bank...i had the '15 Sannsonet recently, I saw my buddy Panos score it 94pts on CT....so I took a flyer even though I went against my rule with its 15%alc.....boy did I regret that move....this is not Bordeaux on any level....major pass

[Blanquito]

Here’s a question: if you could have a great left bank, would you generally prefer it to be a 2009, a 2010 or a 2015?

I think I know my answer.

[greatbxfreak]

Found this article on the internet - https://www.masterclass.com/articles/le ... te-of-wine

3 Ways Alcohol Content Affects the Taste of Wine

1. Flavour harmony. A wine’s flavour structure is comprised of the relationship between alcohol, acid, sugar, and tannin. For a harmonious flavour profile, all components should have a similar intensity. For example, a red wine with high tannin should also have high alcohol so that neither component sticks out in relation to the other. Too much alcohol in a wine with lower tannin, acidity, and sugar will taste unpleasantly “hot,” like a liquor.

2. Body. Alcohol content affects a wine’s body since alcohol is more viscous than water. A wine with higher alcohol content will have a fuller, richer body, while a lower alcohol wine will taste lighter and more delicate on the palate.

3. Perceived taste. A person’s genes can affect how alcohol itself tastes, which can amplify the sensory experience of bitterness or sweetness in wine. Alcohol tastes neutral to half of the population, while about a quarter of people perceive alcohol as bitter, and the other quarter perceive alcohol as sweet.

Pretty good explanations imho.

[Chateau Vin]

Found this article on the internet - https://www.masterclass.com/articles/le ... te-of-wine

3 Ways Alcohol Content Affects the Taste of Wine

1. Flavour harmony. A wine’s flavour structure is comprised of the relationship between alcohol, acid, sugar, and tannin. For a harmonious flavour profile, all components should have a similar intensity. For example, a red wine with high tannin should also have high alcohol so that neither component sticks out in relation to the other. Too much alcohol in a wine with lower tannin, acidity, and sugar will taste unpleasantly “hot,” like a liquor.

2. Body. Alcohol content affects a wine’s body since alcohol is more viscous than water. A wine with higher alcohol content will have a fuller, richer body, while a lower alcohol wine will taste lighter and more delicate on the palate.

3. Perceived taste. A person’s genes can affect how alcohol itself tastes, which can amplify the sensory experience of bitterness or sweetness in wine. Alcohol tastes neutral to half of the population, while about a quarter of people perceive alcohol as bitter, and the other quarter perceive alcohol as sweet.

Pretty good explanations imho.

Thanks for sharing the info, gbf.

I don’t know the website and their credentials. For the most part I feel the information is true with an exception of a variation that I learned when I earned my sommelier certificates from ISG (International Sommelier Guild) and from Court of Master Sommeliers...

Let’s set aside the nose profile of a wine for a second. On the palate, a great red wine has harmony and balance among alcohol, acid, tannins and fruit (the masterclass people that you mentioned use ‘sweetness’ in lieu of ‘fruit’). I feel ‘fruit’ and ‘sweetness’ are not the same and are not interchangeable IMO. In any claret (or dry red) I always look for the balance among those four, with one or two not overpowering the rest and tilting the balance. Sure, young wines can have that imbalance, but an aged wine should have all four in harmony for it to be considered great or exceptional. The holy grail in assessing a young wine or a barrel sample is assessing how that balance and harmony will be when the wine undergoes physical/chemical changes through the ageing process.

The fifth characteristic, ‘sweetness’ applies to certain sweet reds or fortified wines (in addition to alcohol, acid, tannins and fruit), but generally is not applicable to clarets or dry reds. For dry whites, it’s acid, alcohol and fruit. And for sweet whites, it’s acid, alcohol, fruit and sweetness.

Just my 2 cents...

[RPCV]

An interview that is germane to some of the discussion here and worth ~10 minutes of your time.

https://smithandtaylor.com/our-world-of ... le-barton/

I met M. Barton in late 1985 when he took over and have been buying his wines ever since. He is true to Bordeaux and was never a Parker fan, making wine from what nature gives.

[Musigny 151]

An interview that is germane to some of the discussion here and worth ~10 minutes of your time.

https://smithandtaylor.com/our-world-of ... le-barton/

I met M. Barton in late 1985 when he took over and have been buying his wines ever since. He is true to Bordeaux and was never a Parker fan, making wine from what nature gives.

Very interesting; very close to my philosophy.

Most interesting part of the interview was about letting the weather make the wines rather than winemaker who practices serious intervention, artificially lowering yields or pushing extraction. That being said, there are green harvests, but that is to ensure ripeness rather than push the extract to the absurd levels of the early 2000s. I am a little surprised that he described 2003 as a great year, I have had the Leoville Barton a couple of times, and it suffers from the problems of the heat that year.

But it was nice to see such an engaging man talking about his wines which are so much a reflection of him.

[RPCV]

My philosophy as well. I thought his comments on the 1945 were quite interesting.

[Musigny 151]

Mark,

I've actually worked with chemistry as a chemistry laboratory technician for 40 years controlling medicine etc.

You're very much obsessed with alcohol. Once again, stop talking bull....!

Oh dear! So once and for all, with all this lab experience, you are telling me that alcohol in the bottle changes over time. This just requires a yes or no answer, not an insulting response so that you can avoid having to reply.

Izak, you can dance, you can shimmy, you can deflect and try and avoid the question, but as I stated before alcohol does not get more integrated over time. You might make an argument that you perceive 15.5% to 16% alcohol can make a balanced wine, but if you do, I am afraid I would seriously question a lot more than whether or not you actually know if alcohol changes over time. Alcohol that is two per cent higher than the norm does not just disappear from a wine, perceived or actual. And a Bordeaux bordering on 16% is not a nice wine.

But since we are on that topic of alcohol, can you please answer the question in the quote above. Those forty years working in a chemical lab should give you a clue; if not, there are plenty of books you can look at. I’ll even give you a hint, the answer is probably negative.

[Comte Flaneur]

I tried the 1947 Cheval Blanc once at a 1947 horizontal. It was still alive but soft and quite simple. Nothing magical about it. Like all the other wines most of which were dirty or flawed. The only wine that was half decent was Ch. Margaux. Most expensive and disappointing tasting I have ever attended.

Despite NM’s mixed assessment of the vintage, in response to Patrick’s question I would take the 2010 vintage over any other 21st century vintage on the left bank with the possible exception of 2016.

I also think views on the right bank are unduly influenced by the likes of Angélus and Pavie. There are some really great wines on the right bank like Cheval Blanc (13.8% abv which is just fine as far as I am concerned);and La Conseillante (14%) quite possibly the best La C ever made.

[OrlandoRobert]

I tried the 1947 Cheval Blanc once at a 1947 horizontal. It was still alive but soft and quite simple.
I also think views on the right bank are unduly influenced by the likes of Angélus and Pavie. There are some really great wines on the right bank like Cheval Blanc and La Conseillante, quite possibly the best La C ever made.

I would agree with this as well, but am also curious about La Conseillante. They, quite shockingly, brought in Rolland for, I think, the 2014 vintage to the present. I bought 2014 unwittingly but chose not to buy subsequent vintages as a result. While this may be a bit hypocritical, I did buy Figeac 2014 and 2015, who also flipped to Rolland. Did you try the La C or are basing the comment on the critic’s scores? I am curious to try it, but wow have these wines gotten pricey. At these prices, I have VCC and Trotanoy all day long over either.

[OrlandoRobert]

There are some very famous wines that were considered among the greatest ever in the last century. I have been lucky enough to taste many of them, and although I can point to a few monumental ones, there were a number of Right Bank legends I really disliked. Among them were Cheval 1947, Latour a Pomerol 1961 and Lafleur 1975 and 1979.

For me, they were indeed “porty”, slightly bitter sweet, leaving a strong impression of raisins and dates. Acidity was low, and given the times they were grown, all seemed freakishly overripe.

For years Parker pointed to the Cheval as justification for the type of wine he liked and was pushing as archetypes for the Right Bank. Yes, it was still in decent shape when I tasted it both in 1999 and 2009, but it had not developed tertiary flavors, it seemed just soft and fat, and...well you’ve got the gist. I think Parker did a lot of good, but this is where he got things horribly wrong, and we still are seeing the effects. Cheval Blanc 1947 and it’s ilk is not a glorious expression of Bordeaux, and I know that in twenty years, some poor sod who paid a fortune for his 2010 Angelus will be wondering what the heck happened.

I suspected that was the case. Never had the pleasure of trying any of these wines, but the descriptors never appealed to me. Bordeaux is not port. I do not know much about the weather in Bordeaux in 1947, and assume it was a rather warm year, but have had other ‘47s from Bern’s that were flat out gorgeous clarets, like a Haut Bailly.

I often wondered whether Tertre Roteboeuf was trying to replicate the image of that 47 Cheval Blanc, in addition to making the archetype of a Parkerized wine.

[Comte Flaneur]

Robert

I tried it in 2012 at a memorable tasting of 2010s in Covent Garden in London.

I was absolutely bowled over by La Conseillante, it was my favourite wine I tried in a line up that did not include the first growths.

It was expensively priced so I bought six for £795 in bond.

I was also bowled over by Pape Clement too a wine I had been highly critical of in other vintages after the change in style. Soon after Parker rated it 100 and I nearly doubled my money.

Likewise Leoville Barton, Gruaud Larose and Branaire - those were the first five I bought but Conseillante was the star. The second time I tasted it around 2013 or 2014 it had started to shut down.

At that second tasting the wine which really impressed me the most was LLC. Serena Sutcliffe was standing there necking LLC and Leoville Barton the whole afternoon.

I preferred LLC to Lafite, Haut-Brion and La Mission; the latter had an ABV of 15.2% iirc which put me off a bit but it otherwise delicious and surprisingly quaffable. The Palmer that day didn’t really do it for me, it came across as being a bit too sleek and youthfully exuberant, probably my bad.

My favourite 2010 tried soon after however was Ch Margaux with Paul Pontallier. A noticeable step up from the 1996.

I was depressed to learn that Rolland consults at La Conseillante too. But I think the new winemaker Marielle Cazaux is doing great, and the 2016 is magical on a par with the 2010. I also went very long on 2016 Figeac despite Rolland’s influence as a long shot on an upgrade...let’s face it it is a much better wine than Angélus.

[OrlandoRobert]

Comte -

I messed up, sorry. Not sure why I thought you were talking about 2016 La C. Ugh. Have not finished my morning second cup of coffee yet!

Thanks for these notes on the 2010s! The right banks that I bought were Magdelaine, VCC, Trotanoy. I should seek out that La Conseillante. I had a 2004 a month or so ago that was so beautiful, and have 2000 and 1998 ready to go. This is an estate that I wish I had more of in my meager “cellar”.

[Comte Flaneur]

When it comes to Rolland it is a question as to whether he is light touch or heavy handed, whether he has the steering wheel or is a back seat driver. Frederic Faye insisted to us when BWE visited Figeac that he is light touch and I am inclined to take him at his word. Alfred Tesseron maintains the same even though the modern Pontet-Canets tend to be glossy. Though Alfred said Rolland is a very good judge as to when to pick, which worried me a bit. What MR may consider to be perfect ripeness we may consider over-ripeness.

[Claudius2]

Guys
One of the points I have tried to make is that there are so many wines made in the world these days that there is plenty to keep everyone happy. Sometimes it just takes time.
I’m drinking a 2010 Chassagne Montrachet Clos St Jean rouge. I think some would say the wine is lacking in power or fruit density. Yet I love the style as it has complexity without heaviness. If I drank it alongside a Hi alc right bank or Aust wine it would seem insipid. So others can have my share of soupy, hi alcohol bruisers as I can’t appreciate them.
Can I add one point about integration. Alcohol content in a sealed environment is a constant and not a variable. Wine ages both aerobically and biochemically and assuming there is no evaporation then the alcohol does not change. The maturity of the wine is not going to reduce the alcohol content and if the wine softens (I mean less tannins and overt fruit) the alcohol is not going anywhere.
The concept of integration is more about your palate than the chemistry of wine maturation. My argument here is that high alc wine will always be hi alc wine and the view you have of it is personal preference. I simply can’t handle hi alc wine and I’ll give a tasting example. I went to a big Aust tasting in Singapore a few yrs ago and tried various wines without checking the alcohol content. A few samples of Barossa wines were to my palate about as nice to drink as boiled road tar. I just about choked on the alcohol hotness and stewed out, dead fruit. They had alc content of 18-18.5%. To my horror many others loved them due to the sheer power of these wines. I just shook my head in disbelief.
The last point is that I have learned that wines that are unbalanced young often just stay that way. Of course they develop and change but so do people and wine personality and human personality are largely immutable.

[stefan]

Mark, how does a winemaker get over 18% alcohol in an unfortified wine? Alcohol is just yeast piss, after all, and yeasts drown in their own urine. Do winemakers use a special kind of yeast that tolerate alcohol levels above 15%?

[greatbxfreak]

OrlandoRobert,

"I often wondered whether Tertre Roteboeuf was trying to replicate the image of that 47 Cheval Blanc, in addition to making the archetype of a Parkerized wine."

Sincerely, I've to laugh! Archetype of Parkerized wine?? Where did you get this phrase from??


I wonder if I will post anymore at this forum, it's become a laughing stock many times recently. Sorry, this is my feeling right now.

[robertgoulet]

OrlandoRobert,

"I often wondered whether Tertre Roteboeuf was trying to replicate the image of that 47 Cheval Blanc, in addition to making the archetype of a Parkerized wine."

Sincerely, I've to laugh! Archetype of Parkerized wine?? Where did you get this phrase from??


I wonder if I will post anymore at this forum, it's become a laughing stock many times recently. Sorry, this is my feeling right now.

Not post?...oh no, don't be silly Izak, please don't look down on us. We're feeble minded, country folk w/ limited scope....but we need someone omnipotent like yourself to supply us with this insider view of Bordeaux. Imagine what this board would be like without it?

So Bobby the only thing we can do now is, explore this 'Hill of the belching beef'

Izak I will need to pick of a bottle of the Tertre Roteboeuf
..
I will pop one with OrlBobby and we will give you our personal unvarnished opinion. If I like it I will have no problem telling u so.

What vintage do you suggest?

-Goulet

[OrlandoRobert]

Interesting. This is the second time in one week where he has threatened to take his toys from the sand box and go home. Last one was a comment based on limited posts within 24 hours on an Easter weekend to his Trotanoy thread.

Izak it matters not to me whether you post here, but like many things in life, threatening rarely works or makes friends. Debates and disagreements over wine are what they are, just disagreements. At least from my perspective, my reaction to your posts is that you consider yourself to be 100% right on all wine matters, subjective and objective. I know that I have very definitive tastes in wine, but I do try to qualify my comments as being “my palate”. Just because you write a blog in Bordeaux and visit the region, does not make you the expert on all things Bordeaux. It’s just opinions and personal preferences, some of which people here decidedly do not share, while perhaps others do. And using expletives to characterize other people’s opinions - like calling Mark’s comments BS - are beyond the pale. Frankly, I’d rather not see your posts like that and would hit an “ignore” function if I could, but I’m just a guest here. This site is not graced by your presence, or that of anyone, we should all consider it a privilege to be a part of this community.

[Blanquito]

OrlandoRobert,

"I often wondered whether Tertre Roteboeuf was trying to replicate the image of that 47 Cheval Blanc, in addition to making the archetype of a Parkerized wine."

Sincerely, I've to laugh! Archetype of Parkerized wine?? Where did you get this phrase from??


I wonder if I will post anymore at this forum, it's become a laughing stock many times recently. Sorry, this is my feeling right now.

Izak, you are clearly living in an alternate reality to virtually any other wine lover I know. Even fans of modern wine recognize Parkerized wines as a phenomena.

I think this board should (and does) welcome all types of palates and personalities, but some semblance of politeness and decorum are required (at least most of the time), and you repeatedly fail to abide by even minimal standards of civility and bonhomie. Reading your posts, I've often wondered if this is a 'lost in translation' sort of issue, but I've also wondered just as often if you are just plain rude.

[Musigny 151]

Interesting. This is the second time in one week where he has threatened to take his toys from the sand box and go home. Last one was a comment based on limited posts within 24 hours on an Easter weekend to his Trotanoy thread.

Izak it matters not to me whether you post here, but like many things in life, threatening rarely works or makes friends. Debates and disagreements over wine are what they are, just disagreements. At least from my perspective, my reaction to your posts is that you consider yourself to be 100% right on all wine matters, subjective and objective. I know that I have very definitive tastes in wine, but I do try to qualify my comments as being “my palate”. Just because you write a blog in Bordeaux and visit the region, does not make you the expert on all things Bordeaux. It’s just opinions and personal preferences, some of which people here decidedly do not share, while perhaps others do. And using expletives to characterize other people’s opinions - like calling Mark’s comments BS - are beyond the pale. Frankly, I’d rather not see your posts like that and would hit an “ignore” function if I could, but I’m just a guest here. This site is not graced by your presence, or that of anyone, we should all consider it a privilege to be a part of this community.

Especially when he is so demonstrably wrong; a man who does not know his arse from his alcohol.

Izak, there have been many times where you could have escaped this thread with your dignity intact, and your ignorance not fully exposed. But you chose to belittle, evade, and finally threaten to take your toys home and not play with us any more. Rather like your musings over a three week period on Facebook, as to whether you should go to Bordeaux for Primeurs. I don’t think anybody, least of all the Bordelais, cared.

Sad to say you have taken this particular thread, and quoted Robert’s phrase about Tertre Roteboeuf and archetypal Parkerization onto you Facebook page inviting derision. I can understand having been so soundly bitch slapped on this forum, you would want to take it to a more friendly format. I hope you find that, because your lack of intellectual honesty and temper tantrums here are perhaps unsuited to this board.

[greatbxfreak]

Goulet,

Try 2000, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2017 Tertre Roteboeuf.

OrlandoRobert,

You have insulted one of Bordeaux' finest winemakers, Francois Mitjavile, who many wine critics call a magician and one who makes Burgundy in St.Emilion. He is the one who never was and is influenced by what Robert Parker said, apart from "thank you very much for putting me and my wine in public". They broke their relationship some 6-7 years ago. Don't make me accept you saying, it's matter of opinion. It's not - it's pure insult towards a winemaker. I don't want to speak any more about Mark.

Blanquito,

I like ALL Bordeaux wines when they're balanced, modern and traditional, Parkerized, Rollandized, Thomas Duclos and others. I like Pavie and La Conseillante, Giscours and Seguin, Trotanoy and Bourgneuf, Pavie Macquin and Troplong Mondot, Cos, Montrose, Meyney, Phelan Segur, etc. Isn't it obvious from my posts here?

I just get angry when some posters try to get attention by either taking alcohol question again and again, despite the obvious fact, that it's natural, or coming with imho ridiculous comments about winemakers.

[Musigny 151]

I am sorry I cannot let this one rest. Tertre Roteboeuf is making Burgundy in St. Emilion. Far and away the best line in this entire thread. It is so utterly nonsensical and ridiculous, I started laughing, and still am as I type this response.

You are the man, Izak. Please I beg you, do not leave this board; at least so long as you can come up with gems like this. I would love to see you justify this, but the amount of spin required might be even beyond your meager abilities. Actually I think beyond Kelly Ann Conway, but it might be fun to watch you wiggle with this one.

[greatbxfreak]

Mark or i...t,

It's personal vendetta - fuck off!

[greatbxfreak]

Steven Browett from Farr Vintners:

Francois Mitjavile's brilliant and unique wine has a different character from that of all its Saint Emilion rivals. There is almost a Pinot Noir sweetness and exceptional purity. Only available in very limited quantities. Our visit to the unassuming cellars with their mud floors and dirty walls is always fascinating and a highlight of our visits to Bordeaux. Production is around 2000 cases annually with elevage in 100% new "Radoux blend" fine grain barrels. The south-facing vineyard produces wines that are ripe but never jammy. They frequently remind us of Le Pin and sometimes even of Musigny. A top performer at the annual Southwold blind tastings.

[Comte Flaneur]

No I won’t have it.

The most ridiculous comment ever made on BWE was that “Parker discovered the Rhone”