What is your biggest score, missed opportunity?

[Musigny 151]

We did a large scale vertical a few years ago. The 1985 was extraordinary, but now with a price tag of around $4k, ridiculously expensive even with that quality. Equally good was the 1993, both just a tad better than the 1980. The 1999 and 2005 were incredibly promising, and the 2002 was wonderful and will be mature before the other two. The 2010, the youngest, was also great, but way too young to know where it would ultimately end up.

We also tried the controversial twin vintages, 1995 and 1996. Although both were drinkable, I think the criticism is justified, particularly the 1995, which had a funky animal edge.

A more complete answer than you probably wanted I am afraid.

[Musigny 151]

I forgot the La Tache. Terry Robards, the ex NY Times wine critic turned me on to at a restaurant on the lower East Side. “Order the La Tache,” he said slyly grinning a little. The restaurant had just changed hands, and the wine list had been sold with the restaurant. On Terry’s instructions I asked for “the other list” and sure enough, the La Tache 1989 was on it, priced at $99. I ordered a bottle, the last one, and the waitress came to our table, she then tried to pull off the top as if it was a screw cap. I stopped the mauling as quickly as I could, asked for a corkscrew and opened it myself. We let it rest for 15 minutes before pouring, taking it in turns to sniff the bottle. When we poured it, the wine was magnificent, although not helped by the jelly type glasses.

[Comte Flaneur]

We did a large scale vertical a few years ago. The 1985 was extraordinary, but now with a price tag of around $4k, ridiculously expensive even with that quality. Equally good was the 1993, both just a tad better than the 1980. The 1999 and 2005 were incredibly promising, and the 2002 was wonderful and will be mature before the other two. The 2010, the youngest, was also great, but way too young to know where it would ultimately end up.

We also tried the controversial twin vintages, 1995 and 1996. Although both were drinkable, I think the criticism is justified, particularly the 1995, which had a funky animal edge.

A more complete answer than you probably wanted I am afraid.

No, thanks, interesting.

I sold my cases of 1995 and 1996 Ponsot CdlR but I think both turned out better in the end than their initial poor reviews, not the first burgundy to do that. I drank through all my 97s - probably prematurely - barring one bottle of Clos Saint Denis.

I attended this Ponsot vs. Dujac dinner in London in January 2012.

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vi ... hp?t=60610

For me one of the unsung heroes was the 2001 Ponsot CdlR. I wish I had followed through and purchased some.

[marcs]

I forgot the La Tache. Terry Robards, the ex NY Times wine critic turned me on to at a restaurant on the lower East Side. “Order the La Tache,” he said slyly grinning a little. The restaurant had just changed hands, and the wine list had been sold with the restaurant. On Terry’s instructions I asked for “the other list” and sure enough, the La Tache 1989 was on it, priced at $99. I ordered a bottle, the last one, and the waitress came to our table, she then tried to pull off the top as if it was a screw cap. I stopped the mauling as quickly as I could, asked for a corkscrew and opened it myself. We let it rest for 15 minutes before pouring, taking it in turns to sniff the bottle. When we poured it, the wine was magnificent, although not helped by the jelly type glasses.

Wow, what year was this?

[stefan]

I did not notice funk in my 1995 Ponsot de la Roche VV. I have one bottle left and will see sometime how it is. Those I drank were good but a bit thin and certainly not great.

I have not yet drunk any of my 2002 and 2005 Ponsot GCs. It How are they now?

[marcs]

My biggest missed opportunity was everything, basically. Through most of my wine collecting career I was extremely conservative about spending, and also much more focused on Bordeaux than Burgundy. In retrospect, all the wines I thought were too expensive at the time were the best long-term investments. And if I had focused more on Burgundy between 2000 and 2010 or so I would probably have picked up just by chance a bunch of wines that have now become unaffordable. The end result of this is that I have a lot of bottles I bought for $50-75 that are now $150, but basically no bottles that I bought for $200 that are now $1000.

[Blanquito]

I think by the late 90's by and large, Bordeaux and much of Burgundy were well charted territories, and days of really screaming deals were over. To a lesser degree, that was true of Cali Cab as the big names were well established by then. Sure, the occasional winner popped up, but nothing systematic like it was in 1995 when 82's, 85s, 86s, 89s and 90s were still sitting on shelves at basically release prices.

It sure seems like the most recent boat many of us missed was in the northern rhone. Chave and Guigal have long been pricey, as recently as 2009-2015 the likes of Gentat, Verset, Jamet, Clape, Juge and newbies like Gonon were still going for 10-20% of their current tariff. I managed to snag a few Clape Renaissance for <$30 and some Gonon for $35, but I missed on the rest as I heard of the others too late.

A gold mine of cheap, world class wine until about 10 years ago was Rioja and other parts of Spain in general. Sure, Unico has always been expensive, but everything else was dirt cheap and there were lots of old vintages floating around. Those days are gone for good unless you go to Spain yourself where WineSearcher shows many fantastic wines still have not appreciated.

I feel like there are still good options/opportunities in Italy, but that window is closing fast too. I wonder if we will look back at Produttori Riservas for $40-$45, and single vineyard barolo and barbaresco for <$65 from Elio Grasso Barolo, Roagna, Burlotto, Vietti, etc. and wonder what the hell were were thinking. These deals are pretty much gone.

[sdr]

Nice, Stuart. Probably the proceeds covered a midweek dinner for you and Kathy.

No, not quite, just the dessert

Stu

[JimHow]

I’m thinking it was around 2004-5, Patrick, that Roberto offered me that case of 96 DRC Grands Echezeaux, that’s a pretty screaming deal. 2002 Lafite was $90 in 2005, 2004 Lafite was $180 in 2007... I remember holding a 2004 Ausone in my hand at NH in 2007, $185, I put it back on the shelf... Sigh.

[JimHow]

Nicola is right about those 1995s in Quebec. We used to go to Quebec City for long weekends, I remember one restaurant where I could have had the ‘95 Margaux for $175, I chose the ‘94 Mouton for $100.

[OrlandoRobert]

Ok just posted this on the “what have you bought lately” thread but I guess it works here, too.

Just bought Dom at 115 and Krug at 62 in splits.

My country club threw a bone to the members, the wine sale list was crazy. It’s a privately owned club that has ridiculously low whole sale buying power from its parent company.

By far my best score over the past year.

[JimHow]

Very nice, OB, which vintage?

[OrlandoRobert]

Very nice, OB, which vintage?

Well, that’s sort of the fun and the funny. I don’t know.

The club’s wine and alcohol director thinks it’s 2006, but could be 08 or 09. I told him to double my order if its 08.

These rich people don’t care about the vintage, they just care about the bubbles!

PS. I’m the poor member.

[JimHow]

It's a great deal regardless but yes that '08 is special.

[JimHow]

I'll bring a bottle of '08 Cristal when we get down there to Florida, it was singing when we had it in Fort Lauderdale a couple months ago, what seems like an eternity now.

[Blanquito]

Pat why did you sell the Gonon? I have tons of it, great stuff. Just had the Iles Feray last night and finished the remainder tonight.

I am a big, big fan of Gonon, and I was thrilled to get vintages I had for what they used to cost. But when K&L told me I could get the $150/each I ended up with for these, I saw green and decided to flip ‘em. I guess when push came to shove, I don’t like Gonon that much. I don’t put Gonon up there with the likes of Clape, Chave, or even Levet (never had a Juge or Verset), or back vintages of Jaboulet Thalabert (I was finding the 89 and 90 for $55-$60 not long ago and I’d pay that all day long for those vintages).

[marcs]

I think by the late 90's by and large, Bordeaux and much of Burgundy were well charted territories, and days of really screaming deals were over. To a lesser degree, that was true of Cali Cab as the big names were well established by then. Sure, the occasional winner popped up, but nothing systematic like it was in 1995 when 82's, 85s, 86s, 89s and 90s were still sitting on shelves at basically release prices.

It sure seems like the most recent boat many of us missed was in the northern rhone. Chave and Guigal have long been pricey, as recently as 2009-2015 the likes of Gentat, Verset, Jamet, Clape, Juge and newbies like Gonon were still going for 10-20% of their current tariff. I managed to snag a few Clape Renaissance for <$30 and some Gonon for $35, but I missed on the rest as I heard of the others too late.

A gold mine of cheap, world class wine until about 10 years ago was Rioja and other parts of Spain in general. Sure, Unico has always been expensive, but everything else was dirt cheap and there were lots of old vintages floating around. Those days are gone for good unless you go to Spain yourself where WineSearcher shows many fantastic wines still have not appreciated.

I feel like there are still good options/opportunities in Italy, but that window is closing fast too. I wonder if we will look back at Produttori Riservas for $40-$45, and single vineyard barolo and barbaresco for <$65 from Elio Grasso Barolo, Roagna, Burlotto, Vietti, etc. and wonder what the hell were were thinking. These deals are pretty much gone.

I think that by the late 90s there were still plenty of chances to buy Burgundy for prices that look very low now. In Bordeaux the first growths would still have given you a pretty good return as well. The only thing was that those prices didn't look like bargains at the time -- what has happened is that the price of true luxury goods has run away from everything else because of the growth in wealth inequality. So if you bought wines that rich people either already liked or were starting to like, you could have made a lot. The key is some kind of supply limit plus people with nine-figure plus wealth like it -- Burgundy being the epicenter of that, the Bordeaux first growths had a price runup but it was capped by the fact that they have a ton of supply. The trick is though that some of the best purchases were among wines that looked most overpriced at the time, because they were the wines rich people liked.

Both Rioja and Barbaresco have looked like tremendous deals for a long time based purely on wine quality, but since I don't like the style I have never found them attractive to stock up on.

The biggest recent opportunity to make real money in alcoholic drinks seems to me to have been in bourbon. Good example of something that had limited supply due to aging needs. The runup there has been crazy. Northern Rhone saw a significant price runup but it seemed like more from the $50 to the $200 level instead of the Burgundy insanity; maybe not enough zillionaires like the stuff.

[Blanquito]

Have you had the old school classics of rioja, Marcus, stuff from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s? Just wondering, cause Rioja post-1996 or maybe 1998 doesn’t do much for me, but I really love the old school stuff.

In terms of deals, I agree burgundy had under-appreciated wines for a long time that only fairly recently became really pricey. Sort of like Verset and Juge. I guess I meant that before the mid to late 90’s, even the well known stuff was “cheap” (ie $25-$45 for wines like the 86 Gruaud, 90 Montrose, 86 Pichon Lalande, etc) in Bordeaux at least except for the top 10 or 15 chateau maybe.

And yes, compared to today, the prices for those then expensive top 10-15 chateau now look dirt cheap. But today, virtually no high end bordeaux seems cheap to me (2014 prices excepted).

[marcs]

I just mourn 2000 which was my first vintage buying futures. I can't remember the exact U.S. release prices I bought at for 2000 Bordeaux (maybe others here do), but per the Wine Spectator article below negociant prices for averaged first and second tranches were $114/bottle for first growths and $35 a bottle for wines like Pichon Baron. Say a 50-70% markup to reach the consumer and you could have gotten 2000 Bordeaux first tranche for maybe $200 / for first growths and maybe $50-60 a bottle for Pichon Baron. But I only bought six bottles of PB because I thought $50 a bottle was wildly extravagant and I didn't touch the first growths because anything in the three figures for a single bottle of wine seemed completely insane to me (if I had only known!). If I had just dropped my 401K contributions that year and loaded up on PB (one of my favorite wines ever) and first growths I would have been golden!

https://www.winespectator.com/articles/ ... ords-20067

Some comparisons:

CPI inflation = +49% 2000-2020 (so in today's dollars these prices would be about about $75-90 for PB and $300 for first growths)
S&P non inflation adjusted +100% 2000-2020 (so your 401 K would have doubled over this time)
2000 Pichon Baron today, about $230 retail -- so +280%, or 3.8 times higher
2000 first growth (Latour) today -- say $950 retail, so +375% or 4.75 times higher

of course there is also some cost to aging, not an inconsiderable one if you store off site like I do. It might be like $1/bottle/year, which would actually make a measurable change to these returns.

[Blanquito]

Yeah, it’s a moving target with inflation and changing personal income. Retrospective valuations provide a healthy context but can be misleading. To wit, as you note 2000 bordeaux futures prices seem pretty darn cheap now for sure, but to me virtually all pre-2005 futures prices seem cheap (and I bet we’d all jump on even those 05 futures prices if offered today... the 05 Montrose for $80, the 05 Baron for <$100?). But as you say, most 2000 futures didn’t really seem cheap at the time.

One simple standard that gets at the heart of the notion of a ‘score’ is, did it seem like a score/deal/steal at the time you bought it? I knew I was getting a great deal at $22 for the 86 Gruaud even in 1995.

[JCNorthway]

did it seem like a score/deal/steal at the time you bought it?

I think I've gotten some "deals," but I don't recall anything I thought was a real "steal."

I only bought Bordeaux futures a few times - 2000 was my biggest year. At the time, I felt like I was stretching to pay the futures prices even though they seem reasonable by today's prices. I think one thing to remember is that at some point, I think it was after 2005, producers increased prices considerably; it seemed they were trying to capture much of the upside that occurred after wines were released. That left much less upside in pricing upon release. That took me out of the futures market permanently because I could buy after release for about the same price as investing in futures.

[Blanquito]

True that, outright steals were usually because of a mistake by the retailer or liquidation or Ponzi schemes. I got a bunch of wine through the years at Premier Cru, especially pre-2012 or so, that seemed like screaming deals at the time. Remember the frenzy to get the orders in first when PC would send out one of its email offers?

Plus the auction market in 2010-2011 was very soft for sellers. I’d put in very low ball bids for fun, and again and again I’d win the lots at 50% off retail or some such.

[OrlandoRobert]

I’m surprised that WineBid numbers have not gone down. The deals remain slim.

[Musigny 151]

I think if you knew the market prior to 2010, there were plenty of deals to be had. When Zachys first started their Internet auctions, there very few punters, and I would get some screaming deals. Occasionally I would be at an auction, and something weird would happen, and you would be buying something because there was nobody else bidding. One time, at the end of a Christie’s auction, they were selling a bottle of 1928 Cheval. There were three people left, and they kept lowering the price. In the end, I figured why not, and bought it for $200.

But then, the auction market at the beginning was at times absurd. In early 1995, 10 cases of Latour 1970 came on as a job lot. That means if you bought the first case, you could buy as many as you wanted for the same price. The wine was selling at the time at retail for around $3000 a case. The first case went to a foreign buyer for $16,000 a case, who bought six. The underbidder paid $12,000 for the next two, and the last two went for $2200. Also at Christie’s.

And this was repeated at all the auction houses, week in, week out. Steals and deals, and stupid prices. It took a year or so for things to sort themselves out, but wouldn’t I have loved to be at one of those houses in the mid nineties again, knowing what was happening now.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

Missed opportunities:

1996 Pichon Baron for $36. I bought a mixed case of the Lagrange, the Leo P. and something of the same rank that escapes me now but passed on the Baron because Tanzer rated it as "ultimately a good, but not great wine." DOH! This was around 2002 or so.

2000 Lynch Bages for ~$50-$60. Flash back to 2004 or 2005. It is the Monday morning after the Pats beat Philly in the Super Bowl. I'm moving a little slowly and am behind schedule by the time I get to the wine ads in the WaPo. This is featured in one of the second-rank retailers, like Schneiders. I call. "Sorry, it's long gone."

No steals, few deals, of any notable wines, though I pulled a few really cheap, really good fliers out of places like Winebid once upon a time. I could add the 2000 vintage as a missed opportunity because although I bought a few cases, including Beychevelle, I clearly did not buy enough. I just remember the first Bassins' futures ad; there were a number of classed growths in the $250-$400/cs range like Duhart Milon but that was a lot of money at the time. But their second offering prices were like 50%-100% higher for some of the wines I passed on.

Oh yeah, a really good flier was a vintage champagne from Zachy's flood sale. Was $17 a bottle. Those I like.

[tim]

This should be cross-posted to BWE memories thread, but I remember one of our biggest scores was during lunch prior to a BWE Convention in DC.

We went to Bistrot du Coin, and in addition to a 1998 Petit Cheval for $99, the server said they had some wines not on the list. We ended up with a 1985 LLC for... $79!!!

Here is the thread:
http://www.bordeauxwineenthusiasts.com/ ... f=4&t=3667

We were lucky that day!