"The West is the Best"

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Tue May 05, 2020 6:17 pm

Like was saying Mr. Morrison.

In the same line, I'm always looking for the best wine subjects to cover on BWE, i'm trying this one.

We all have in mind what are the ultimate best wine for each grape type.

Cabernet franc is Cheval Blanc
Grenache is Chateau Rayas
Merlot is Pétrus
Mourvèdre is Domaine Tempier Cabassaou?
Nebbiolo is Giacosa Barolo Falletto red label
Pinot Noir is Domaine de La Romanée-Conti Romanée-Conti
Sangiovese is Brunello di Montalcino Poggio di Sotto Riserva
Shiraz is Penfold's Grange Bin 95
Syrah is Chave Ermitage Cuvée Cathelin
Tempranillo is Vega Sicilia Unico
Touriga nacional is Quinta da Noval Porto Vintage Nacional

I have an idea for Cabernet Sauvignon but it is tougher as there are a few contestants. What wine is the ultimate Cabernet Sauvignon?

Nic

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue May 05, 2020 6:35 pm

I’ve always said the pinpoint of land on planet earth most propitious for the growing of wine grapes (in this case Cabernet) is at the bend in the road on D2 where Pauillac meets St. Julien, where the stone wall separates Latour and LLC, with the Pichons nearby....

William P · Post by **William P** » Tue May 05, 2020 6:39 pm

He also said in that song:

Ride the snake to the Lake,
the ancient lake,
the snake is long,
seven miles.

Jim was a poet, but just a little strange. Thanks Nic for today's smile.

Bill

Chateau Vin · Post by **Chateau Vin** » Tue May 05, 2020 7:12 pm

JimHow wrote:I’ve always said the pinpoint of land on planet earth most propitious for the growing of wine grapes (in this case Cabernet) is at the bend in the road on D2 where Pauillac meets St. Julien, where the stone wall separates Latour and LLC, with the Pichons nearby....

Hmmm...

Picture perfect...

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue May 05, 2020 7:20 pm

Ha. Well done CV.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Tue May 05, 2020 7:59 pm

Yes, but which Chateau? Which one? And i would no eliminate the USA so easily. I agree that on BWE, it is all about Bordeaux, but i'm sure that also some serious Cabernet Sauvignon wines are produced out of France.

After all, if 2005 wines of Bourgogne won the BWE WOTY one year, it is not impossible to have a Cabernet Sauvignon wine from out of France as best Cabernet Sauvignon wine...

Come on, bring them on!

Nic

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Tue May 05, 2020 8:18 pm

Another thing: as Chateau Cheval Blanc has only 66 % Cabernet Franc, is Clos Rougeard the ultimate Cabernet Franc wine?

Nic

JoelD · Post by **JoelD** » Tue May 05, 2020 8:21 pm

Yes, what are the parameters for each grape?

Over 50%? over 70%? In California, they can call a wine "Cab Sauv" if it has 75% or more

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Tue May 05, 2020 9:09 pm

This is a good point Joel. And this is also challenging to answer.

The wines above are all over 90 % of their principal grape...

This why i'm asking que question for Cabernet Sauvignon wine. Even Léoville Las Cases, that i consider a "Cabernet Sauvignon" wine, can have only 60 % of it in some vintage (1994).

The only 100 % Cabernet Sauvignon Médoc i know is the 2013 La Lagune.

Nic

JoelD · Post by **JoelD** » Tue May 05, 2020 9:53 pm

A large majority of Left Bank wines are between 50-70 percent cab. So this would almost completely remove bordeaux as a possibility. I would say that anything over 60% should be an acceptable answer. Or at the very least, anything overly 75% like in California, because a lot of times we are not able to find the exact percentages.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue May 05, 2020 10:15 pm

At Pere Lachaise a couple years ago....

William P · Post by **William P** » Tue May 05, 2020 11:32 pm

JimHow wrote:At Pere Lachaise a couple years ago....

Mr. Mojo Risin's grave. Well done! Equally as impressive as CV's picture.

Bill

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Wed May 06, 2020 12:55 am

I have never drunk a Cab based wine from outside of Bordeaux that I preferred to a really good 5th growth Medoc. That is not to say that I dislike Screaming Eagle, Ridge Montebello, Phelps Insignia, Dominus, Harlan, just to mention some famous ones that I have drunk multiple times. In fact, the first four I would buy in preference to a few 4th growths that I do buy if they lower the price 65% (well, maybe 90% for Screagle).

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Wed May 06, 2020 12:57 am

And 2013 La Lagune is NOT a La Lagune. It admits as much on the label.

AlexR · Post by **AlexR** » Wed May 06, 2020 5:23 am

Hi Nic,

As opposed to Burgundy, Bordeaux is almost always a blend of grape varieites.
Sorry for the nitpicking, but several of the wines on your list would not be what they are if made with just one grape variety.

As for the ultimate Cabernet Sauvignon, I'll surprise you. What springs to mind is not Bordeaux at all, but California!

All the best,
Alex

dstgolf · Post by **dstgolf** » Wed May 06, 2020 12:56 pm

Jim,

2015...final visit to Pichon Baron if you recall I disappeared to take a photo or two of that magical divide between Latour and LLC and got locked out on my return causing a little embarrassment but the photos were worth it!!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SWPQpEZZpu41ww8UA

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed May 06, 2020 1:27 pm

That's it, Danny!
The most propitious spot in the solar system for the growing of wine grapes, the spot where Pauillac meets St. Julien.
Where everything comes together perfectly, soil, weather, sun, rainfall, temperatures, culture, microclimate.... Terroir.
Well done.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Wed May 06, 2020 1:35 pm

Nicklasss wrote:Another thing: as Chateau Cheval Blanc has only 66 % Cabernet Franc, is Clos Rougeard the ultimate Cabernet Franc wine?

Nic

Yes. Yes indeed.

Rougeard is to Cab Franc as d’Yquem is to Sauternes

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Wed May 06, 2020 3:32 pm

Nicklasss wrote:What wine is the ultimate Cabernet Sauvignon?

Nic

Maybach Materium may be getting close.
The 2014 I tasted a couple years ago was a 98 pointer for me.

OTOH, I'm predicting I'll like the 1984 Vasse Felix that's sitting in my office kitchenette even more.

sdr · Post by **sdr** » Wed May 06, 2020 7:40 pm

Nicklasss wrote:
We all have in mind what are the ultimate best wine for each grape type.

Cabernet franc is Cheval Blanc
Grenache is Chateau Rayas
Merlot is Pétrus
Mourvèdre is Domaine Tempier Cabassaou?
Nebbiolo is Giacosa Barolo Falletto red label
Pinot Noir is Domaine de La Romanée-Conti Romanée-Conti
Sangiovese is Brunello di Montalcino Poggio di Sotto Riserva
Shiraz is Penfold's Grange Bin 95
Syrah is Chave Ermitage Cuvée Cathelin
Tempranillo is Vega Sicilia Unico
Touriga nacional is Quinta da Noval Porto Vintage Nacional

Nic

Nice list, although for Sangiovese I would choose Soldera.

Is this list your suggested theme for Friday night BWE 2021

?

What is your list for white wine grapes?

Stu

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Wed May 06, 2020 7:51 pm

Nicklasss wrote:This is a good point Joel. And this is also challenging to answer.

The wines above are all over 90 % of their principal grape...

This why i'm asking que question for Cabernet Sauvignon wine. Even Léoville Las Cases, that i consider a "Cabernet Sauvignon" wine, can have only 60 % of it in some vintage (1994).

The only 100 % Cabernet Sauvignon Médoc i know is the 2013 La Lagune.

Nic

Well, the 90% rule knocks out what I would have recommended as the best mourvedre in the world:

Beaucastel Hommage Jacques Perrin

I like your list, though. Some truly killer and memorable wines. I have had many of them, but one that I have not had, and have not even seen a bottle live, is the Chave Cuvee Cathelin. Anyone?

I am struggling to make a call on the Cabernet. Again, given the 90% threshold, I think Bordeaux is out. Otherwise, it would have been my top 5 or more slots. I guess that I have would to say Dunn - a remarkably consistent, solid and distinct California original coming from a region so prone to fads.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed May 06, 2020 7:52 pm

So... you are ruling out left bank Bordeaux from the list.
Ooookay.

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Wed May 06, 2020 8:55 pm

JimHow wrote:So... you are ruling out left bank Bordeaux from the list.
Ooookay.

Nic just needs to add "Best Bordeaux Blend"

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Thu May 07, 2020 12:07 am

I'm not putting any rules.

Of course, in other wine regions, many wines are made from a high percentage of one grape.

For Cabernet Sauvignon, in Bordeaux it is more difficult to find. But the 1994 Lafite is 99 % CS and the 1961 Lafite is 100 % CS. I never had any of these two Lafite but maybe they are the ultimate CS wines?

Mouton Rothschild 2010 is 94 % CS and the 2016 Latour is 92.9 % CS.

I like Racer Chris's Mayback Materium. I never had it, but I remember DavidG's 2006 Screaming Eagle that was glorious. And no, I won't talk about "best Bordeaux blend" as we will never get over it!

I understand Orlando Robert with Beaucastel and Mourvèdre. I know one Chateauneuf top cuvée is 90 % Mourvèdre, but i think Bandol is having a better terroir for mourvèdte. But Maybe USA or Spain have great Mourvèdre wines.

And SdR, i wish we could have all these wines on a Friday night dinner at BWE convention, but as the people would be the same, it doesn't really matter.

Nic

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu May 07, 2020 12:16 am

Phelps Insignia is a great cabernet sauvignon.

I had a Staglin once, it was a wow-wow-wow moment.

How much cabernet sauvignon is in Staglin?

Racer Chris · Post by **Racer Chris** » Thu May 07, 2020 12:22 am

Nicklasss wrote: ...
And no, I won't talk about "best Bordeaux blend" as we will never get over it!
...
Nic

can't argue with that sentiment.
Best to consider Bordeaux blends that are not Bordeaux when discussing that topic.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu May 07, 2020 12:25 am

I have been so lucky to have so many crazy wines over the years, but one Cabernet Sauvignon I particularly remember was a little filly by the name of Screaming Eagle that DavidG brought to my room in Chicago 2004, what vintage was that little puppy, David? Do I have my city and year right?

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Thu May 07, 2020 12:28 am

Nicklasss wrote:I'm not putting any rules.

Of course, in other wine regions, many wines are made from a high percentage of one grape.

For Cabernet Sauvignon, in Bordeaux it is more difficult to find. But the 1994 Lafite is 99 % CS and the 1961 Lafite is 100 % CS. I never had any of these two Lafite but maybe they are the ultimate CS wines?

Mouton Rothschild 2010 is 94 % CS and the 2016 Latour is 92.9 % CS.

I like Racer Chris's Mayback Materium. I never had it, but I remember DavidG's 2006 Screaming Eagle that was glorious. And no, I won't talk about "best Bordeaux blend" as we will never get over it!

I understand Orlando Robert with Beaucastel and Mourvèdre. I know one Chateauneuf top cuvée is 90 % Mourvèdre, but i think Bandol is having a better terroir for Bandol. But Maybe USA or Spain have great Mourvèdre wines.

And SdR, i wish we could have all these wines on a Friday night dinner at BWE convention, but as the people would be the same, it doesn't really matter.

Nic

No I think your Bandol is spot on! Tough for any wine to compete with that Beaucastel, but for down the middle, classic mourvedre, Bandol is unbeatable. I have never ever had a mourvedre from the new world that caused me to go buy more. And I have tried. In fact, I bought several producers this year from the US, and while decent mourvedre, they miss the spirit of this feral grape. Barral is a great example, by the way.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu May 07, 2020 1:01 am

Mr. Mojo Risin's grave. Well done! Equally as impressive as CV's picture.

We walked about 12 miles that day Bill to get from l'Arc de Triomphe to the cemetery and back... basically crossed the city.
What a great little town. I can't wait to get back there!

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu May 07, 2020 1:26 am

I had always wanted to go to the Morrison grave. My friend had no idea who Jim Morrison was, although she did like "L.A. Woman." But she was a trooper. I somehow convinced her to walk across the city, west to east. It was one of my greatest days in Paris. Don't ever let anyone tell you the people of Paris are unfriendly to Americains. I mean, don't judge from the silly bullshit in the "cafes" <rolls eyes>. Just don't be a stupid American, and they will be as nice to you as anyone you have ever met. We finally got to the cemetery by late afternoon. It is a little confusing to get to Morrison's grave, but we finally got there. There were the obligatory half dozen Amaricans there. It was sad, actually. There were numerous memorabilia at his grave, flowers, notes, etc. I'm sure Jim would have been thrilled to have all this litter at his quiet rest all these decades later. What made me so sad was to see an empty Burgundy bottle there. Some fool thought it would be a "great idea" to stick an empty bottle of wine right on top of Jim Morrison's grave. Yeah, man... You'e cool. Cosmic. Anyway.... Enough of the negative vibe, the Doors were all about Death, but in a positive way! It was kind of a Woody Allen way of looking at death. It was about breaking on through, to the other side, that William Blake moment when your loins stir, unexpectedly, at the sweet taste of nectar... whether it is Bordeaux wine, or some other sexual sensation.... And next we know, Nicola, we are back in that warehouse, with that California gal Heather... and Mr. Mojo is risin... Gotta keep on risin... Gotta keep on risin....

Anyway... went to see some dude named Chopin that day as well, a fellow Pole, like me, who took a liking to that little town along the Seine....

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu May 07, 2020 9:03 pm

Jim, I opened a 1996 Screaming Eagle at the Friday dinner in Chicago at Bin 36 in 2004. The one we shared in your room was the 2006 - that was at the start of the Thursday BD Welcome Reception in DC in 2012. Both were pretty good wines IMO, though the 2004 was at the end of the evening and had the advantage of being presented to a well-primed group.

I think it’s tough to pick a Bordeaux blend for best Cab. I’d do a separate category for blends but that could take us down a rabbit hole.

Nic, I agree with most of your selections, but I don’t think you can give awards for both Syrah and Shiraz. I’m on board with Chave Cuvée Cathelin. Had the 1990 at a restaurant in Baltimore for a birthday bash dinner when it was still under 4 figures. One of those wines I can still taste more than 20 years later if I close my eyes. Grange wouldn’t even be my first choice Australian Shiraz/Syrah. That would go to Henschke Hill of Grace.

Has anyone nominated a pure Grenache? My vote goes to Chateau Rayas.

Jay Winton · Post by **Jay Winton** » Thu May 07, 2020 9:06 pm

David brought a 1994 Harlan to the Miami BWE convention-memorable.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 08, 2020 1:58 am

The one we shared in your room was the 2006 - that was at the start of the Thursday BD Welcome Reception in DC in 2012.

Boy are you sure about that David? I think you are wrong on that. My recollection is that you came to my room in Chicago and we finished the remnants of a wine from the night before, which must have been the 96 Screaming Eagle. There may have been another occasion in 2012 but the one I'm remembering I think was in 2004.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Fri May 08, 2020 2:21 am

I was there for David's 2006 Screagle in your room pre-dinner party in 2012 in DC.

Nic

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri May 08, 2020 2:25 am

yeah, see, I'm positive it was just me and David. It must have been 2004, Chicago, you brought the rest of that 1996 Screaming Eagle to my room on Friday afternoon after the Thursday night dinner, which must have been followed by the trip to the Blues bar, no? I think at some point we went to Binny's and drank that 2001 Pape Clement in my room.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Fri May 08, 2020 5:18 am

JimHow wrote:
The one we shared in your room was the 2006 - that was at the start of the Thursday BD Welcome Reception in DC in 2012.
Boy are you sure about that David? I think you are wrong on that. My recollection is that you came to my room in Chicago and we finished the remnants of a wine from the night before, which must have been the 96 Screaming Eagle. There may have been another occasion in 2012 but the one I'm remembering I think was in 2004.

I have contemporaneous notes.

We opened the 2006 in your room in DC in 2012 and had a glass before anyone else got there. Thursday, March 29, 2012. I think you popped a Pape Clement but not sure, I didn’t record everything in CT. I think we talked about whether it had gone modern.

In Chicago it was the Friday dinner, CabFan's Cabfest, mostly California. May 14, 2004, at Bin 36. Towards the end of the night JScott and I each reached into our bags for a treat to finish the evening. He pulled out a Hundred Acre Kayli Morgan and I had the 1996 Screamer.

But you’ve jogged my memory. I do remember bringing the rest of the bottle to your room the next day. Wasn’t that Saturday? Or am I off a day? Was Cabfest on Thursday? When I entered my note in CT the next day I could have forgotten to record the date consumed.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Fri May 08, 2020 10:11 am

Guys
I suggest the following:

Cabernet/cab blend: Latour followed by Margaux and/or HB (this is based on a big tasting I attended in Australia some yrs ago but may be a bit out of date)
Shiraz: Henschke Hill of Grace (I much prefer this wine to Grange although it is more variable across vintages), next would be Torbreck Runrig and Brokenwood Graveyard.
Syrah (incl a touch of Viognier): La Mouline or Landonne Guigal
Nebbiolo: Gaja Sperss
Mourvedre: Hewitson Old Garden (Barossa, SA).
Grenache: I give up. Can I have some Syrah and/or Mourvedre in it?

The last one above may surprise a few but I have drunk Domaine Tempier wines on numerous occasions and while I like them, the Hewitson Old Garden is the best Mourvedre I have had and I keep buying it in magnums over here. The vines were planted in 1853 and they are all dry grown bush vines.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Fri May 08, 2020 11:09 am

Mark, I’ve gone off most Châteauneuf because I really dislike the candied sweetness of Grenache at the ripeness levels being used today. Done right, I like it. A lot. Very intrigued by the Hewitson. Looks like we get that here in the US, I’ll have to try it out.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Sat May 09, 2020 9:32 am

David
I have never really "got" Grenache and much prefer it blended.
The old CDP style was drier and more spicy/peppery but these days I agree - they are too confected and sometimes overly alcoholic.
Surprisingly Hewitson wines are quite popular here in Singapore as one of the importers likes them and they are reasonably priced. I think they know each other and that has led to this.
The Old Garden is about $A250 a magnum (around $US170).