Red Burgundy Research. Part 2.1. The Best Grand Crus

[Wine Talks]

Dear all,

I recently published Part 1 of the Red Burgundy Research. The first part was about the best villages producing Pinot Noir in Burgundy.

In the second part of the research I focused on the Grand Crus and how some of the Premier Crus relate to them.⁣⁣⁣

Follow the link to read the article - Red Burgundy Research. Part 2.1 The Best Grand Crus

I am very grateful to many of you who have contributed to the discussion of the first part. I tried my best to reflect on that in my second article and also share some observations.
⁣⁣⁣
I invite you to a discussion. Which are your favourite vineyards of red Burgundy?⁣⁣

[stefan]

Musigny
Chambertin
Richebourg
Romanee-St-Vivant
Bonnes-Mares

I have never tasted Romanee-Conti and have drunk La Tache too few times to place it. After the five I named it gets murky for me. I have drunk all on your list of 31 multiple times except for Clos Parentoux and La Romanee, which I have drunk only once each, and I would not turn any down.

[Wine Talks]

Musigny
Chambertin
Richebourg
Romanee-St-Vivant
Bonnes-Mares

I have never tasted Romanee-Conti and have drunk La Tache too few times to place it. After the five I named it gets murky for me. I have drunk all on your list of 31 multiple times except for Clos Parentoux and La Romanee, which I have drunk only once each, and I would not turn any down.

Thank you so much for sharing, Stefan!

I really love your top list. All of them are falling in the top categories of the chart I came up with. What are your thoughts about Clos de Tart, Clos de la Roche and Clos de Beze?

[Blanquito]

I have nowhere the needed experience to have any informed opinion on this, but that won't stop me from saying that I think Richebourg is the bee's knees (based on the 3-4 times I've had a wine from there).

[jal]

In the first part of your research, I think you said something about producer before terroir before vintage. This is in my opinion a lot more important in Grand and Premier Crus Burgundy than in Village. For example, I have had Ruchottes and Charmes by Rousseau that blew away many Grand Crus. But I have had Amoureuses by Groffier much better than Bonnes Mares and Richebourg by many great producers. So terroir ruled there. And let's not get started with Clos de Vougeot which is huge and where someone may produce great wines one year and village quality the next.

It is therefore difficult for me to generalize, I again applaud the effort but it is an extremely complicated subject and I just cannot answer.

By the way, I don't know if you are familiar with Yak Shaya's site, it's a little dated as he has stopped updating it about 15 years ago, but his Basic Burgundy 'Primer' is a great resource. http://www.yakshaya.com

[stefan]

Jacques, my opinion is that producer in a Grand Cru vineyard is very important in some, like Clos Vougeot and Corton, irrelevant in some, like Romanee Conti, La Tache, and Clos de Tart, and of varying importance in most. For example, it is hard to find a bad Richebourg but easy to find an underwhelming Faux-Chambertin.

Stas, the first great Grand Cru Burgundy I drank was 1962 Clos de Tart, served to me by a friend in 1971. I almost fainted when he told me that he had used one cup to make a sauce.

Patrick, the first Richebourg I drank was in Lexington, Kentucky in the 1970s when I was at a conference. The person I was with (a friend, unfortunately now deceased, who eventually won the Fields Medal) also was interested in exploring Burgundy. We saw a 1969 Richebourg on the menu at what we guessed was a good price, but neither of us remembered quite where Richebourg fell in the Grand Cru hierarchy. It was great, of course.

Stas, getting back to your question: I love Clos de Tart but haven't bought any recently because the price skyrocketed. I have a couple of bottles of 2002 and may drink one in a couple of years. We drink Clos de la Roche pretty often from a variety of producers. Often there is good value here, if you can juxtapose "good value" with "Grand Cru Burgundy". As for Clos de Beze, I do not understand the difference from Chambertin. But maybe some Chambertin I have drunk could have qualified for being labeled Clos de Beze, or at least blended with some grapes from the Clos de Beze Appellation.

[jal]

Stefan, I must have bought the only underwhelming Richebourg ever, a 1999 Mongeard Mugneret that we probably drank too young back in 2007.

[Wine Talks]

In the first part of your research, I think you said something about producer before terroir before vintage. This is in my opinion a lot more important in Grand and Premier Crus Burgundy than in Village. For example, I have had Ruchottes and Charmes by Rousseau that blew away many Grand Crus. But I have had Amoureuses by Groffier much better than Bonnes Mares and Richebourg by many great producers. So terroir ruled there. And let's not get started with Clos de Vougeot which is huge and where someone may produce great wines one year and village quality the next.

It is therefore difficult for me to generalize, I again applaud the effort but it is an extremely complicated subject and I just cannot answer.

By the way, I don't know if you are familiar with Yak Shaya's site, it's a little dated as he has stopped updating it about 15 years ago, but his Basic Burgundy 'Primer' is a great resource. http://www.yakshaya.com

Yes, I do hold to my rule of thumb exactly in that order as you mentioned. This 2nd part of my research with the focus on individual vineyards is a deeper dive into the terroirs which are even more important as opposed to the village ones that I reviewed before.

Scores are collated from a wide range of critics, wine journalist and other professionals. Then they are all adjusted for the 100-point scale as different critics use different scales. In order to rank the appellations I use the weighted average across all vintages for each specific wine. Wines coming from one appellation are sorted together to identify the top ones. Comparing top lists (top10, top20, etc.) from each appellation with others gives the rating of those appellations. For example, top10 wines from Richebourg get higher weighted average scores than those of Clos de la Roche. Similar to village appellations. The only difference that village appellations have many climats, including communal and 1er Cru level. So in that case we have much more data to process.

In case with monopoles, you have only 1 wine and that's it. All you can do is come up with weighted average score across the vintages.
As for the appellations where you have many different wines/labels the approach is to compare topX wines rather than average or mean or median. The idea is to see what the terroir is capable of in the hands of the best winemakers across the vintages rather than getting the average temperature of the patients in the hospital, which doesn't really tell that much. That is the chart of terroirs and in case of those vineyards where you have a huge number of low profile negociant labels, etc. you dilute its value.

[Wine Talks]

Jacques, my opinion is that producer in a Grand Cru vineyard is very important in some, like Clos Vougeot and Corton, irrelevant in some, like Romanee Conti, La Tache, and Clos de Tart, and of varying importance in most. For example, it is hard to find a bad Richebourg but easy to find an underwhelming Faux-Chambertin.

Stas, the first great Grand Cru Burgundy I drank was 1962 Clos de Tart, served to me by a friend in 1971. I almost fainted when he told me that he had used one cup to make a sauce.

Patrick, the first Richebourg I drank was in Lexington, Kentucky in the 1970s when I was at a conference. The person I was with (a friend, unfortunately now deceased, who eventually won the Fields Medal) also was interested in exploring Burgundy. We saw a 1969 Richebourg on the menu at what we guessed was a good price, but neither of us remembered quite where Richebourg fell in the Grand Cru hierarchy. It was great, of course.

Stas, getting back to your question: I love Clos de Tart but haven't bought any recently because the price skyrocketed. I have a couple of bottles of 2002 and may drink one in a couple of years. We drink Clos de la Roche pretty often from a variety of producers. Often there is good value here, if you can juxtapose "good value" with "Grand Cru Burgundy". As for Clos de Beze, I do not understand the difference from Chambertin. But maybe some Chambertin I have drunk could have qualified for being labeled Clos de Beze, or at least blended with some grapes from the Clos de Beze Appellation.

Thank you, Stefan for sharing! Great wines you mentioned!! I must admit I do share your observation of CdlR wines.

[greatbxfreak]

Although I'm die-hard Bordeaux fan, I can also appreciate Burgundy wines.

My favourite area is Cote de Nuits and I have found three producers, Frederic Esmonin, Arnoux Lachaux and Perrot Minot. For now, they fulfil my interest in their wines.

I don't circle among the producers who take an awful lot of money for their wines. I haven't had wines of Romanee and La Tache calibre for a very long time.

[Claudius2]

Folks
I think trying to rank GC Burgundies is even harder than Premiers Crus.
However Burghound has done it and I think in the first group he has:

Chambertin and Ch Clos de Beze
Musigny
Richebourg
Romanee Conti
La Tache

The second group included Grands Eschezeaux, Mazis Chambertin, Clos de la Roche, Bonnes Mares and maybe a few others as I’m doing this from memory. The last category included Corton and Clos Vougeot but realistically I’d include Charmes Chambertin as well. I think Clos du Tart and St Denis were in the third group.
I’d add a few GC and CM vineyards particularly Amouresses and Clos St Jacques as GC quality and maybe Combe Aux Moines.

I’d also argue that over the decades I’ve been drinking wine the average quality of white and red Burgundies have improved but some are too blatantly oaky now or too commercial for me.
I’d also say that the are regular ownership changes and it is very hard keeping up with it.