Building the cellar, based on what? Any advice appreciated.

[Dandersson]

So as I mentioned in some posts I am "building" my cellar, meaning buying more wine than I drink in somewhat organized way with a goal in mind.
Since most of you have rather large cellars I thought that you might have knowledge to share.
Currently I have started with buying wine from the chateaux/producers that I have tried and liked, I understand that my taste should be the main determinant of what is in my cellar. So I have basically started a list of wine/producers that I like and buy from that.
The aim of the cellar is to learn more and drink great wines, during the coming 20 years, to then have accumulated a cellar to enjoy during retirement. So, basically a hobby combined with retirement savings.
Now the issue is that I can't taste all the wines even from my favorite regions, before I start building. So, I am building a list of wines that I should taste.
So far the list is being based on known estates that I wanted to try and I also take a lot of inspiration from BWE.

Is a second wine often a good indication of the grand wine? Is the argument I really liked Echo de Lynch Bages 2014, so I would most likely love Ch Lynch Bages, okay or flawed?

Except for your own taste what determines if you buy a wine for the cellar?
Do you always buy cases or often smaller quantity?
Do you always try each vintage or have wines that you always trust?
Have you often bought futures (EP) or not? and why?
Do you focus on balance in the cellar or just let it become what it will become within reason based on your preferences? Basically do you ever say only xx% is from that region so I need to increase and focus on that.

Advice, comments and suggestions very welcome. Thank you!

Best, Dan

[JimHow]

Everybody’s situation is different, Dan, based on age, finances, etc., and you can now even throw in the unknowns presented by covid.

It seems any cellar should have a healthy percentage of Bordeaux because of its age ability. There are wines out there like Meyney, Sociando, etc., that are still rationally priced but which age for long periods. Other than the case of 2016 Reserve de la Comtesse I bought recently, I don’t buy second wines, certainly not to cellar. I would just pace myself, build it up over time, from vintage to vintage. Some vintages I have bought heavily, like 14, 15, 16, others I have ignored completely.

[Dandersson]

Thanks for your input Jim.
Yes Bordeaux and Rhone will definitely be the main part of it. With some other old world wines making up the rest.
So far I have focused on 14-16. Will be trying Futures for the first time with 2018.

[William P]

Jim's advice is sound. I would also add, try and find a wine tasting group in your area. The only way to get familiar with good wines (if you are not independently wealthy) is to taste. If you have a small group, you can taste a different region every month or so. One month 2016 Bordeaux, the next California Cabs and so on. Also the problem with mass buying even of fairly expensive wines is you palate changes with experience. Many people who work as cellar advisors will tell you that new winos tend to buy the latest and greatest according to wine press and in five years they discover they have two cases of wine that is no longer pleasing. Sometimes you can sell but sometimes you can't because the wine is no longer charming. So don't go overboard until you have a foundation in wine and your palate matures.

It's a great adventure and you meet some really interesting people along the way.

Bill

[Musigny 151]

I think your answers will depend on so many unasked questions. When I do this professionally these are some of the questions I ask

How many bottles do you tend to drink a week, and what is the price range of each.
Do you only intend this for drinking, or will you ever sell wines to subsidize future purchases?
What is your budget? Do you expect that to rise?
What kind of price range are you going to buy? And what percentage of each? Special occasion wines? Large bottles?
Etc etc.

The single most important thing is for you to taste. Put a group of local wine lovers together, or ask your local wine store if they know people. When I first started there was an existing group, and I learned as much from them as any other source. After tasting, make sure you have a place to store the wines.

Finally, I would not suggest an inexperienced collector buy futures. Particularly a vintage like 2018, which is going to be quite atypical. Not before tasting them. Unlikely you are going to pay that much more if you wait for them to be released, and you may well avoid what could be a costly mistake.

[stefan]

I second Mark's admonition about buying futures, with the possible exception of top tier wines, especially those that have a relatively small production. These often skyrocket in price and, anyway, are easy to resell in case you do not want to drink them yourself down the road.

[DavidG]

I buy what Jim tells me to buy.

No, seriously, I agree with the purpose of a cellar being to enjoy aged wines and to have a collection of wines you will like as they mature. I disagree with your other stated purpose of a cellar: to learn more. You learn from tasting, not cellaring. Waiting 20 years to learn what the wines you cellared in their youth (and your youth) taste like when aged is an extremely inefficient use of time and money.

To figure out what to cellar, taste some aged stuff now. Either buy a few bottles or get into a tasting group with some people who’ve been at it for a while who will bring aged bottles. Read about vineyard and winemaking practices and philosophies when those wines were produced and compare them to what is being done today. Talk to people who like many of the same wines you like and ask what wines they’ve cellared successfully, and not so successfully. Extrapolate from all of that and start putting away those wines that look like a good bet to be in your wheelhouse 20 years down the road.

I found out after 10-15 years that aged Napa Cab didn’t do much more for me than bottles with only a few years of age on them. So no need to cellar much of it. I sold the majority and cut way back on purchases. Same thing with Australian Shiraz. Used to have a bunch, now maybe 1 or 2 bottles. Most people make some mistakes, or their preferences change. So hedge your bets and don’t overcommit too quickly.

Bordeaux, Champagne, Rhône, German Rieslings were a different story. I like what age does to them, though I get plenty of enjoyment both young and old from Champagne and Riesling. I steered my cellar based on how frequently I drink each category, so Bordeaux is the largest portion of the cellar.

There are a ton of choices in Bordeaux and again it comes down to personal preference and the odds that a wine will develop the aged characteristics you’re looking for. There’s a good deal of skepticism about the potential for modern, high alcohol, very ripe Bordeaux to develop the classic aged complexity I’ve grown to love. St. Emilion seems to be the poster child for this but there are increasing examples from the left bank as well.

If I had unlimited funds, I’d put away first growths. I love Pessac-Leognan, so Haut Brion and La Miss. They’re out of my price range, but Haut Bailly scratches that itch pretty well. Palmer is easily my favorite non-first growth Margaux but also very pricey. Giscours and Prieure Lichine have been ok as agers but not near that level. Further north, both Pichons, Léoville Barton and Las Cases (the latter a young man's gambit as it takes forever to come around), Ducru, Gruaud, Talbot and Montrose have all been great bets for me. More affordable winners that have aged well include Cantemerle, Sociando, Meyney. From the right bank I like Conseillante, Vieux Chateau Certan, Trotanoy, some Clinet. Not enough funds to play in the Petrus, Ausone, Cheval Blanc pool.

That’s a lot of wines even though it’s a tiny fraction of what’s available just from Bordeaux, and way too many to start laying down cases without knowing how well you might like them with age or whether some have gone modern. It’s a good list to go hunting for some 20 year old versions to see what you think of them.

[Dandersson]

Jim's advice is sound. I would also add, try and find a wine tasting group in your area. The only way to get familiar with good wines (if you are not independently wealthy) is to taste. If you have a small group, you can taste a different region every month or so. One month 2016 Bordeaux, the next California Cabs and so on. Also the problem with mass buying even of fairly expensive wines is you palate changes with experience. Many people who work as cellar advisors will tell you that new winos tend to buy the latest and greatest according to wine press and in five years they discover they have two cases of wine that is no longer pleasing. Sometimes you can sell but sometimes you can't because the wine is no longer charming. So don't go overboard until you have a foundation in wine and your palate matures.

It's a great adventure and you meet some really interesting people along the way.

Bill

Thank you Bill. It is a good advise to find a tasting group will look into that after this Covid crap is under control. So far I have understood that I do love Bordeaux and Rhone. Especially Northern Rhone, Pauillac, St Julien, and some others from the Medoc side of Bordeaux, less interested in the right banks. Prefer old vs new world wine.
I will continue to slowly build on what I like and learn more as I go, thank you!

[William P]

Danderoo, sounds like you have a decent start. Another tactic is to monitor this board. The are many "small" wines that are fantastic. By small I mean inexpensive compared to first growth. David mentioned a few Cantemerle, Sociando, Meyne, La Lagune (at times it is a super bargain), Gloria, Lafon Roche, Potensac. If you see a outstanding review, buy a bottle and taste. If you like it than buy more and put them in the cellar. This way you can determine whose palate aligns with yours.

Bill

[Dandersson]

I second Mark's admonition about buying futures, with the possible exception of top tier wines, especially those that have a relatively small production. These often skyrocket in price and, anyway, are easy to resell in case you do not want to drink them yourself down the road.

Thanks Stefan, I guess the top tier wines, will not fit into my budget. So I will likely just buy one or two different wines, in small volume, that I know I love if I decided to go that way. But less sure I will now...

[Dandersson]

I buy what Jim tells me to buy.
haha, I would follow some of his Bordeaux advice.

No, seriously, I agree with the purpose of a cellar being to enjoy aged wines and to have a collection of wines you will like as they mature. I disagree with your other stated purpose of a cellar: to learn more. You learn from tasting, not cellaring. Waiting 20 years to learn what the wines you cellared in their youth (and your youth) taste like when aged is an extremely inefficient use of time and money.
well I might not have expressed that as well as I should have, what I meant with the learning is drinking the wines to learn and decide what I want to put in the cellar.

To figure out what to cellar, taste some aged stuff now. Either buy a few bottles or get into a tasting group with some people who’ve been at it for a while who will bring aged bottles. Read about vineyard and winemaking practices and philosophies when those wines were produced and compare them to what is being done today. Talk to people who like many of the same wines you like and ask what wines they’ve cellared successfully, and not so successfully. Extrapolate from all of that and start putting away those wines that look like a good bet to be in your wheelhouse 20 years down the road.
Great ideas, thank you!
I found out after 10-15 years that aged Napa Cab didn’t do much more for me than bottles with only a few years of age on them. So no need to cellar much of it. I sold the majority and cut way back on purchases. Same thing with Australian Shiraz. Used to have a bunch, now maybe 1 or 2 bottles. Most people make some mistakes, or their preferences change. So hedge your bets and don’t overcommit too quickly.
Yes, I am not very into Cal and Aussie, so will only buy those for a variety now and then, not for the cellar.
Bordeaux, Champagne, Rhône, German Rieslings were a different story. I like what age does to them, though I get plenty of enjoyment both young and old from Champagne and Riesling. I steered my cellar based on how frequently I drink each category, so Bordeaux is the largest portion of the cellar.
[/color] I will likely focus on Bordeaux and Rhone.
There are a ton of choices in Bordeaux and again it comes down to personal preference and the odds that a wine will develop the aged characteristics you’re looking for. There’s a good deal of skepticism about the potential for modern, high alcohol, very ripe Bordeaux to develop the classic aged complexity I’ve grown to love. St. Emilion seems to be the poster child for this but there are increasing examples from the left bank as well.

If I had unlimited funds, I’d put away first growths. I love Pessac-Leognan, so Haut Brion and La Miss. They’re out of my price range, but Haut Bailly scratches that itch pretty well. Palmer is easily my favorite non-first growth Margaux but also very pricey. Giscours and Prieure Lichine have been ok as agers but not near that level. Further north, both Pichons, Léoville Barton and Las Cases (the latter a young man's gambit as it takes forever to come around), Ducru, Gruaud, Talbot and Montrose have all been great bets for me. More affordable winners that have aged well include Cantemerle, Sociando, Meyney. From the right bank I like Conseillante, Vieux Chateau Certan, Trotanoy, some Clinet. Not enough funds to play in the Petrus, Ausone, Cheval Blanc pool.

That’s a lot of wines even though it’s a tiny fraction of what’s available just from Bordeaux, and way too many to start laying down cases without knowing how well you might like them with age or whether some have gone modern. It’s a good list to go hunting for some 20 year old versions to see what you think of them.

A nice list of wines, will seek out some of them for sure, What I started doing was to buy some of the once I know I like such as GPL, Gruaud, etc. I will continue to stay away from cases, and buy a couple of bottles of each and buy some older wine to learn more about my taste. Thank you for your great input! Best, Dan

[Dandersson]

Danderoo, sounds like you have a decent start. Another tactic is to monitor this board. The are many "small" wines that are fantastic. By small I mean inexpensive compared to first growth. David mentioned a few Cantemerle, Sociando, Meyne, La Lagune (at times it is a super bargain), Gloria, Lafon Roche, Potensac. If you see a outstanding review, buy a bottle and taste. If you like it than buy more and put them in the cellar. This way you can determine whose palate aligns with yours.

Bill

Will do! Thank you!

[jal]

If I was just starting:

Barolos and Barbarescos
I'd buy a mixed case or two and check their progress over the years, some current release nebbiolos are great now and evolve well over time (2013, 2015) others need time (2012, 2014)

Red Burgundy
If too expensive to go with 1er or Grand Cru, stay with village and stick with producers whose wines you can age; Bachelet Cotes de Nuits, Jadot, Bouchard, Drouhin and many more.

Rhones
Age Cornas, Hermitage and Cote Rotie for 10 or more years, age St Joseph for 5-7 years, age Gigondas and Crozes Hermitage for 3-5, buy some Cotes du Rhone for immediate consumption

Tuscany
What Tom in DC says in the Tuscany thread.

Bordeaux
What Bill (both Bills) , Jim and David say

[JimHow]

I just think you should let it happen, there's no rush.
We used to have a young man in a hurry here named Whuzzup__, he bought massive amounts of 1998 right bank Bordeaux. He was in his late 20s at the time. Then like a year later he decided he didn't like them and got rid of them all. I think he had it right initially, as I think 1998 right bank is one of the greatest vintages we have ever seen.

[Dandersson]

If I was just starting:

Barolos and Barbarescos
I'd buy a mixed case or two and check their progress over the years, some current release nebbiolos are great now and evolve well over time (2013, 2015) others need time (2012, 2014)

Red Burgundy
If too expensive to go with 1er or Grand Cru, stay with village and stick with producers whose wines you can age; Bachelet Cotes de Nuits, Jadot, Bouchard, Drouhin and many more.

Rhones
Age Cornas, Hermitage and Cote Rotie for 10 or more years, age St Joseph for 5-7 years, age Gigondas and Crozes Hermitage for 3-5, buy some Cotes du Rhone for immediate consumption

Tuscany
What Tom in DC says in the Tuscany thread.

Bordeaux
What Bill (both Bills) , Jim and David say

Jacques, yes the Cornas, Hermitage and Cote Rotie, are great. My favorite so far is the Hermitage le Ermite from Chapoutier, use to buy Sizeranne also and really enjoyed the Varonniers, Also really like some of the others like Voge, Jaboulet, and Guigal.
Have not been very impressed with Burgundy, but will look if I can find any of those to try again.
For Italy, I have been doing more of the Chianti, the few Borolo and barbaresco I had did not really make me very inspired, but will try it again, Any specific that you recommend?
Thank you! Great ideas, lots to try!
Best, Dan

[Dandersson]

I just think you should let it happen, there's no rush.
We used to have a young man in a hurry here named Whuzzup__, he bought massive amounts of 1998 right bank Bordeaux. He was in his late 20s at the time. Then like a year later he decided he didn't like them and got rid of them all. I think he had it right initially, as I think 1998 right bank is one of the greatest vintages we have ever seen.

Sounds good, I will continue to buy a couple of wines a months that I know I like for the cellar. Also I will buy 1-2 wines to try each month. Not sure I will be up to great reds after the June celebration but we will see. Not in a hurry!

It gets really warm down here for a Scandinavian

[AKR]

The best advice I can proffer would be to NOT buy cases, nor many multiples, of wines until you have really tasted a lot. All those reviews that say 'buy this by the case' are just BS. In our modern world it is generally easy to source lots of different kinds of wines, at various ages. That was not so true 30-40 years ago, so maybe it made more sense for critics to urge enthusiasts to indeed purchase a desirable wine by the case, as there were less chances to get it again if one loved it, and supply chains/availability were narrower. Perhaps as time goes on, your tastes will change too, and wines that were large purchases, will not be so enjoyable later.

[jal]

As far as nebbiolos are concerned start with Langhe nebbiolo for early drinking. Then the Produttori del Barbaresco normale

Producers, there are hundreds of great producers I love, this barely scratches the surface:
Produttori del Barbaresco
Oddero
Vajra
Castello di Neive
Mocagatta
Azelia
Ceretto
Vietti
Voerzio
Einaudi
Mascarello (either)
Rinaldi (Giuseppe, but Francesco is great too)
Elio Grasso

But imo, you can't go wrong just going to the store and getting 2 mixed cases.
For me, all wine, but especially Nebbiolo and Pinot Noir, should be drunk with food. I never open a bottle of wine by itself.
I'm sure Ian and Tom will have more to say on particular producers.

[Dandersson]

The best advice I can proffer would be to NOT buy cases, nor many multiples, of wines until you have really tasted a lot. All those reviews that say 'buy this by the case' are just BS. In our modern world it is generally easy to source lots of different kinds of wines, at various ages. That was not so true 30-40 years ago, so maybe it made more sense for critics to urge enthusiasts to indeed purchase a desirable wine by the case, as there were less chances to get it again if one loved it, and supply chains/availability were narrower. Perhaps as time goes on, your tastes will change too, and wines that were large purchases, will not be so enjoyable later.

Thanks AKR, yes I will continue to put away a few known bottles, no cases, that I like and do the home work of drinking more great wines. Life is hard

[Dandersson]

As far as nebbiolos are concerned start with Langhe nebbiolo for early drinking. Then the Produttori del Barbaresco normale

Producers, there are hundreds of great producers I love, this barely scratches the surface:
Produttori del Barbaresco
Oddero
Vajra
Castello di Neive
Mocagatta
Azelia
Ceretto
Vietti
Voerzio
Einaudi
Mascarello (either)
Rinaldi (Giuseppe, but Francesco is great too)
Elio Grasso

But imo, you can't go wrong just going to the store and getting 2 mixed cases.
For me, all wine, but especially Nebbiolo and Pinot Noir, should be drunk with food. I never open a bottle of wine by itself.
I'm sure Ian and Tom will have more to say on particular producers.

Thank you Jacques, That is a great list to start from, Thank you!

[Racer Chris]

My best advice is become a Fan of people on Cellartracker who post credible tasting notes on the wines you're interested in learning more about. Since I'm mostly interested in Bordeaux most of the ones I'm a fan of are frequent posters of recent vintage Bordeaux up and down the price spectrum, and they have varied palates so I get a good spectrum of viewpoints. Jeff Leve is definitely on my list.
For an Italian wine specialist I can only think of one who I'm a fan of right now - Tim Heaton, although others on my Fan list do post on Italian wines on occasion. He goes to Italy every spring and tastes lots of current releases at the big events. I was also fortunate to meet and drink a few bottles with him several years ago.
I like to look at specific wines from a variety of vintages and see what everyone thinks but I also like to see what my "I'm a fan of" people are drinking that I may want to seek out for my cellar.
Cellartracker makes it so easy to do these things.

[Dandersson]

My best advice is become a Fan of people on Cellartracker who post credible tasting notes on the wines you're interested in learning more about. Since I'm mostly interested in Bordeaux most of the ones I'm a fan of are frequent posters of recent vintage Bordeaux up and down the price spectrum, and they have varied palates so I get a good spectrum of viewpoints. Jeff Leve is definitely on my list.
For an Italian wine specialist I can only think of one who I'm a fan of right now - Tim Heaton, although others on my Fan list do post on Italian wines on occasion. He goes to Italy every spring and tastes lots of current releases at the big events. I was also fortunate to meet and drink a few bottles with him several years ago.
I like to look at specific wines from a variety of vintages and see what everyone thinks but I also like to see what my "I'm a fan of" people are drinking that I may want to seek out for my cellar.
Cellartracker makes it so easy to do these things.

Thank you for the cellartracker advice, signed up and browsing...

[Chateau Vin]

As far as nebbiolos are concerned start with Langhe nebbiolo for early drinking. Then the Produttori del Barbaresco normale

Producers, there are hundreds of great producers I love, this barely scratches the surface:
Produttori del Barbaresco
Oddero
Vajra
Castello di Neive
Mocagatta
Azelia
Ceretto
Vietti
Voerzio
Einaudi
Mascarello (either)
Rinaldi (Giuseppe, but Francesco is great too)
Elio Grasso

But imo, you can't go wrong just going to the store and getting 2 mixed cases.
For me, all wine, but especially Nebbiolo and Pinot Noir, should be drunk with food. I never open a bottle of wine by itself.
I'm sure Ian and Tom will have more to say on particular producers.

Thank you Jacques, That is a great list to start from, Thank you!

Jacques' list is fantastic...You will enjoy his recommendations. He recommended Azelia to me, and ever since I have been sourcing them whenever I could find them at good prices. Some other nebbiolo producers worth looking at based on vintage and who will not break your wallet are...

Andrea Oberto
Brezza
Burlotto

If you want to go old school style of wine making... worth looking at the following (however, these are expensive than the above)
Cappellano (haven't tried post 08 vintage)
Canonica Paiagallo

Roagna (Courtesy, Comte's recommendation few years back) is also worth looking at...I enjoy their barbarescos very much...

[Dandersson]

Chateau Vin, Thank you!

[Racer Chris]

Thank you for the cellartracker advice, signed up and browsing...

Oh, one other thing about Cellartracker. The mobile app makes it really convenient to look up wines while you're in the store. I think it includes a photo identification feature now too. However I prefer to use the desktop version most of the time since looking at and adding details to a large database on a small screen gets tedious quickly.

[Chateau Vin]

So as I mentioned in some posts I am "building" my cellar, meaning buying more wine than I drink in somewhat organized way with a goal in mind.
Since most of you have rather large cellars I thought that you might have knowledge to share.
Currently I have started with buying wine from the chateaux/producers that I have tried and liked, I understand that my taste should be the main determinant of what is in my cellar. So I have basically started a list of wine/producers that I like and buy from that.
The aim of the cellar is to learn more and drink great wines, during the coming 20 years, to then have accumulated a cellar to enjoy during retirement. So, basically a hobby combined with retirement savings.
Now the issue is that I can't taste all the wines even from my favorite regions, before I start building. So, I am building a list of wines that I should taste.
So far the list is being based on known estates that I wanted to try and I also take a lot of inspiration from BWE.

Is a second wine often a good indication of the grand wine? Is the argument I really liked Echo de Lynch Bages 2014, so I would most likely love Ch Lynch Bages, okay or flawed?

Generally, that argument holds water, but please remember that qpr also comes more into picture when you compare the second labels to grand vin...

Except for your own taste what determines if you buy a wine for the cellar?

Ofcourse, my better-half's taste too...


Do you always buy cases or often smaller quantity?

Generally, I will have to first taste the wine if I want buy the wine, say 6 or more bottles...That is not set in stone either. These board members have a wealth of knowledge, and by reading one's notes and own experiences, you can find that your palate aligns with someone else's and that way it's a safe bet to buy some chateau based on that. I have done that and wasn't disappointed...


Do you always try each vintage or have wines that you always trust?

I generally buy according to my palate. For example, I love every commune in Bordeaux, but prefer or gravitate towards St Estephe and Pauillac for my liking. I know 2016 was dynamite vintage for these two regions, and since I have tried these wines at tastings, I bought more from these communes for 2016. On the same token, I bought more of Margaux than other communes in 2015 as I felt Margaux in 2015 did much better (again, it does not mean you can't find great wines to your liking in other communes in 2015). I haven't bought any 2011 and 2013.

Have you often bought futures (EP) or not? and why?

Yes, I do buy EP if I like the wine, especially after the tasting of a good vintage. Based on their needs, others on the forum might have a different take on buying EP, but the wines I buy (and the ones I have bought so far) EP are growth properties, and my selections have only gone up in prices since release.

Do you focus on balance in the cellar or just let it become what it will become within reason based on your preferences? Basically do you ever say only xx% is from that region so I need to increase and focus on that.

I never build my cellar based on a set regional percentages. I just build it based on my needs. Afterall, it's a considerable investment and why not enjoy it based on what you like? Having said that, once you venture into other regions of drinking wine, you will end up liking a particular producer from a particular region and you buy those for your enjoyment. That way, your cellar will have wines from other regions. It's just that the regional percentages of wine for each person will be different..


For example, my cellar has 75% bordeaux, 10% barolo, 9% Burgundy, etc...And these percentages will move here and there based on my future purchases and consumption, but I don't deliberately buy wines to have wines from other regions unless I like and enjoy them.

Advice, comments and suggestions very welcome. Thank you!

Having said that, one of the key things I mentioned is about buying wines based on tasting. I mentioned it several times, and the question is how do you get to do these. Some already have mentioned great things like forming a group or something where you get that opportunity. The other way to get to taste and see what you like is attend tasting sessions offered by local area stores. It might cost say 40 or 50 bucks, but you can sample tens of wines and see what you like, or what vintages you like and go from there. I don't think you have to spend money and do it frequently, but if you are new you can do in the beginning and know your palate to zero-in on what you like the most and concentrate on building cellar from there. There are also UGC tastings every vintage, and if can attend one in your area (usually in January of every year), you can taste nearly 100+ chateaux in a horizontal tasting of a particular vintage, and decide which one you like and buy those. It might cost around 70 or 80 bucks, but you can just do it for 'good vintages' and decide for yourself...

Best, Dan

Like everybody chimed in, each person's situation and goals are different. The only common theme across BWE is their enthusiasm for wines in general, and for Bordeaux in particular...

All the Best...

[Dandersson]

So as I mentioned in some posts I am "building" my cellar, meaning buying more wine than I drink in somewhat organized way with a goal in mind.
Since most of you have rather large cellars I thought that you might have knowledge to share.
Currently I have started with buying wine from the chateaux/producers that I have tried and liked, I understand that my taste should be the main determinant of what is in my cellar. So I have basically started a list of wine/producers that I like and buy from that.
The aim of the cellar is to learn more and drink great wines, during the coming 20 years, to then have accumulated a cellar to enjoy during retirement. So, basically a hobby combined with retirement savings.
Now the issue is that I can't taste all the wines even from my favorite regions, before I start building. So, I am building a list of wines that I should taste.
So far the list is being based on known estates that I wanted to try and I also take a lot of inspiration from BWE.

Is a second wine often a good indication of the grand wine? Is the argument I really liked Echo de Lynch Bages 2014, so I would most likely love Ch Lynch Bages, okay or flawed?

Generally, that argument holds water, but please remember that qpr also comes more into picture when you compare the second labels to grand vin...

Except for your own taste what determines if you buy a wine for the cellar?

Ofcourse, my better-half's taste too...


Do you always buy cases or often smaller quantity?

Generally, I will have to first taste the wine if I want buy the wine, say 6 or more bottles...That is not set in stone either. These board members have a wealth of knowledge, and by reading one's notes and own experiences, you can find that your palate aligns with someone else's and that way it's a safe bet to buy some chateau based on that. I have done that and wasn't disappointed...


Do you always try each vintage or have wines that you always trust?

I generally buy according to my palate. For example, I love every commune in Bordeaux, but prefer or gravitate towards St Estephe and Pauillac for my liking. I know 2016 was dynamite vintage for these two regions, and since I have tried these wines at tastings, I bought more from these communes for 2016. On the same token, I bought more of Margaux than other communes in 2015 as I felt Margaux in 2015 did much better (again, it does not mean you can't find great wines to your liking in other communes in 2015). I haven't bought any 2011 and 2013.

Have you often bought futures (EP) or not? and why?

Yes, I do buy EP if I like the wine, especially after the tasting of a good vintage. Based on their needs, others on the forum might have a different take on buying EP, but the wines I buy (and the ones I have bought so far) EP are growth properties, and my selections have only gone up in prices since release.

Do you focus on balance in the cellar or just let it become what it will become within reason based on your preferences? Basically do you ever say only xx% is from that region so I need to increase and focus on that.

I never build my cellar based on a set regional percentages. I just build it based on my needs. Afterall, it's a considerable investment and why not enjoy it based on what you like? Having said that, once you venture into other regions of drinking wine, you will end up liking a particular producer from a particular region and you buy those for your enjoyment. That way, your cellar will have wines from other regions. It's just that the regional percentages of wine for each person will be different..


For example, my cellar has 75% bordeaux, 10% barolo, 9% Burgundy, etc...And these percentages will move here and there based on my future purchases and consumption, but I don't deliberately buy wines to have wines from other regions unless I like and enjoy them.

Advice, comments and suggestions very welcome. Thank you!

Having said that, one of the key things I mentioned is about buying wines based on tasting. I mentioned it several times, and the question is how do you get to do these. Some already have mentioned great things like forming a group or something where you get that opportunity. The other way to get to taste and see what you like is attend tasting sessions offered by local area stores. It might cost say 40 or 50 bucks, but you can sample tens of wines and see what you like, or what vintages you like and go from there. I don't think you have to spend money and do it frequently, but if you are new you can do in the beginning and know your palate to zero-in on what you like the most and concentrate on building cellar from there. There are also UGC tastings every vintage, and if can attend one in your area (usually in January of every year), you can taste nearly 100+ chateaux in a horizontal tasting of a particular vintage, and decide which one you like and buy those. It might cost around 70 or 80 bucks, but you can just do it for 'good vintages' and decide for yourself...

Best, Dan

Like everybody chimed in, each person's situation and goals are different. The only common theme across BWE is their enthusiasm for wines in general, and for Bordeaux in particular...

All the Best...

Wow, thank you Chateau Vin, very useful answers and reflections, thank you! I was attending free monthly wine tasting classes at one of my wine stores together with my wife before Covid, now sadly they stopped. Will be looking for groups and also virtual tasting while I wait for the safe return to in store classes. Need to figure out when the next UGC tasting takes place in my area. That seems like a great idea!
Thank you! Best, Dan

[RPCV]

A few things come to mind....

1) Buy some well-stored Bordeaux that is 15, 10, 5 years old and new release, from good, not great vintages or other wines in the categories you wish to collect....all from the same producer. Open them together and taste so you know what you like in terms of aging. This is crucial in determining your collecting strategy and consumption horizon and will help you in sizing your cellar.

2) Buy some white wine and red cellar defenders

3) Spend your cellar money on insulation a good door and cooling unit. Racking is less important unless your cellar is for entertaining. Do get racking for magnums.

4) If you are in a profession that requires frequent relocation, remember moving a large cellar is expensive and a hassle.

Best of luck....

[Chateau Vin]

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Wow, thank you Chateau Vin, very useful answers and reflections, thank you! I was attending free monthly wine tasting classes at one of my wine stores together with my wife before Covid, now sadly they stopped. Will be looking for groups and also virtual tasting while I wait for the safe return to in store classes. Need to figure out when the next UGC tasting takes place in my area. That seems like a great idea!
Thank you! Best, Dan

You are welcome, Dan.

The joy of wine is amplified when you know the regional/commune differences, winemaking and history...I don't know how far are you into the knowledge base, but if you need information, PM me. I have information in pdf format that can be very useful if you need such...

-CV