Blanquito, Winona, Musigny-151, et al: Champagne tips?

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:15 am

As I said in another thread, every time I have an experience with a Champagne like the '08 Cristal yesterday on the back deck during the summer solstice, I get these mini Churcillian rushes that I gotta get more Champagne in my cellar.

Any advice from K&L, MacArthur's, etc., etc., Musigny-151, what were those half bottles you were buying recently?

Winona Chief · Post by **Winona Chief** » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:01 am

Had another bottle of Taittinger Prélude tonight. Got several bottles on sale for upper $60s and low $70s at Calvert-Woodley. Very nice Grand Cru NV in that price range. Krug, Cristal, Dom Perignon and Taittinger Comtes are almost always wonderful and are favorites of mine. That 2008 Cristal sure is a winner (jealous that you got so many at a great price). The 2008 Dom Perignon is also outstanding. I like to drink Champagne often so I am always looking for something very good in the $60 to $80 price range. Low end (less than $50), Roederer Brut Premier is one of my favorites. Mostly learn about them by talking to the staff in wine stores and friends at wine dinners. It really helps that I like about 17 different styles of Champagne

Chris Bublitz

Winona Chief · Post by **Winona Chief** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:04 am

A few favorites in the $80 to $100 price range are: 2008 Delamotte BdB, 2008 Jean Laurent BdB and Cedric Bouchard BdN Val Vilaine. Some of my favorite Champagnes producers are only available at Schneider’s of Capitol Hill: Bertrand Delespierre, Jean Laurent and Demiere (they make several different ones out of 100% Pinot Meunier). Each person has their own personal preferences so you have to just taste a bunch and see what you like. I’m very lucky in that I like many different styles of Champagne.

Chris Bublitz

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:39 am

Jim,
I was buying half bottles of Bordeaux, which is not what I think you are looking for.

My go to Champagne is Louis Roederer Brut, which I buy several cases at a time. It is not only Champagne for us, but also used as a white wine, and something we sip most evenings on the front porch. We narrowed In on it after tasting a dozen Non vintage, and it finished first, just ahead of the Taittinger Brut, which we also buy, but not very much.

At around $38 a bottle, it is hard to beat

Talking of Taittinger, we are buying a lot of Comte both Rose and BDB. lovely stuff and again well priced. You should buy from Bordeaux Index or L’Assemblage in the U.K., you will end up paying at least 25% less. PM me if you want details.

Also had a good many bottles of Piper Rare 2002, which you can stIll pick up if you look hard at a good price. The downside; the bottle is extremely vulgar, full of gold filigree. But it is delicious.

jal · Post by **jal** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:01 pm

Jean Christophe is my Champagne go to guy on the board, I am waiting for him to chime in.
For house Champagne we love Agrapart les 7 Crus and Bollinger (when it's on sale)

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:24 pm

Guys
When it comes to NV Champagne, I drink 1-2 bottles a week. We only occasionally buy vintage Champagne as the NV wines are so good these days that I see them as a good buy and nice wine.
I went to a big NV tasting last year and whilst they obviously change from year to year, the tasting was consistent with past experience.
There were 30 wines tasted and the best were as follows:
Bollinger (Voted the overall winner)
Billecart Salmon
Louis Roederer
Deutz
Gosset

There were several others that did well and I can’t recall every label but it is hard to go past those wines.
There are also plenty of grower Champagnes and smaller estates that are very good such as Veuve Fourny, Egly Ouriet, Liebart, Larmandier Bernier, Jean Vesselle, Geoffroy And Tarlant.
The only NVs I tend to avoid are Mumm and Veuve Cliquot as the are rather light and at times just dull. I would have said the same about Lanson previously but recent examples have been fine.
Recent bottles of Moet, De Cazenove, Piper H and Nicholas Feuillatte have also been good though not in the top class.

Jay Winton · Post by **Jay Winton** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:54 pm

Envoyer has lots of champagne deals from small producers and the big boys. Be prepared for pre arrival on many items but they respond to calls and emails on status. I've stopped buying from West Coast suppliers in general as coordinating shipping can be a hassle. I did bite on a couple of the de Negoce US offerings (Cameron Hughes new gig) as they were so cheap. Initial TNs I have read are quite positive. No sparklers yet but we'll see.

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:47 pm

Claudius2 wrote:Guys
When it comes to NV Champagne, I drink 1-2 bottles a week. We only occasionally buy vintage Champagne as the NV wines are so good these days that I see them as a good buy and nice wine.
I went to a big NV tasting last year and whilst they obviously change from year to year, the tasting was consistent with past experience.
There were 30 wines tasted and the best were as follows:
Bollinger (Voted the overall winner)
Billecart Salmon
Louis Roederer
Deutz
Gosset.

For the NV, this listing from Claudius is excellent. Let say I'm less found to Deutz, but all the other are top.

I had a Bollinger and a Gosset not so long ago, and while very different style, two great NV.

Nic

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:40 pm

What Nic said.

A NV I would add to the mix is Charles Heidsieck. At one time I would have put Pol Roger near the top, but its NV declined seriously. In the last couple of years it has come back some, but IMO it is still far below what it once was.

Also, Jim, almost all good NV Champagne benefit a lot from aging in your cellar for 1-2 years.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:21 pm

Great help, thanks. Now, where to buy? Does MacArthurs have a good selection?
I think K&L has a good selection but I hate to keep going to the MichaelP well for assistance with shipping.

Winona Chief · Post by **Winona Chief** » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:19 pm

MacArthur carries many of the producers mentioned above, just take a look at their website.

I am also a fan of Agrapart 7 Crus that Jacques mentions. Bereche Brut Reserve is another good sub $50 NV. I do like Egly Ouriet and Cedric Bouchard but they have gotten a lot more expensive lately. I like Veuve Fourny and Geoffroy Rose, but my go to Roses are Billicart Salmon, Laurent Perrier, Vilmart Rubis and Ruinart.

Chris Bublitz

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:33 am

There is so much great bubbly out there, at pretty much all price points. Given that, the house style and blend -- and one's wine budget -- are the main issues, excepting the occasional deal or under the radar gem that makes buying easy. Lots of great recommendations already in this thread (especially for my palate the 08 Delamotte BdB).

For me, ~$60-$70 is the sweet spot for Champagne and I can usually get vintage brut for that from great houses. Given your love for Cristal, I would try the a vintage Roederer Brut; I see the 2012 for ~$65 (I've not tried this vintage, but the 08 and 09 are great):
http://www.artisanwinedepotlg.com/Louis ... se12-w.htm

But that said, I wholeheartedly endorse the 2002 Rare at <$150!!! Killer bubbly.

P.S. I see the Roederer Brut 2008 for sale near Boston for $59.39 if you buy 6 bottles. They don't ship outside of MA (I assume based on the shipping laws), but you're close by, so you might be in the neighborhood this summer to watch the Yanks crush the Sox at Fenway (not!):
https://www.totalwine.com/wine/champagn ... rules=true

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:12 am

Nic
The Deutz we tried was I think a Blanc de Blanc, not the usual label.
In one of those squat, stumpy bottles that won't easily fit in the wine fridge.
Pol Roger was not on tasting (somehow it is just not popular here) but I used to buy it in Australia. A lighter style from memory but a nice aperitif.
One other NV I like is Perrier Jouet which was also not at this tasting.

The host also threw in a few non-Champagne sparklers (all were drunk blind) and wow, it really showed how much better real Champagne is.
There were I think two Proseccos and they had virtually no nose at all and a strange rubbery, synthetic taste. The US, Aust and British sparklers were drinkable but none were rated highly.

While I have always loved Champagne, it is so balmy and hot here, there is little that can beat a decent Champers in the evening.
The main style I drink less of now if Australian Shiraz/Syrah.
While I still like it, it is too hot for hi alcohol, heavy, porty or tarry wines. I have however bought some Shiraz from cooler areas such as central and southern Victoria that are more Rhone like in style.

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:29 pm

I think one of the most exciting wine regions in France at present is that of Champagne and more specifically, in the ever growing grower champagne landscape. Producers such as Agrapart, Noel Bazin, Bereche et Fils, Cedric Bouchard, Ulysse Colin, Marc Hebrart, Benoit Lahaye, Laherte Freres, Guy Larmandier, Georges Laval, Marguet, Clement Perseval, Jerome Prevost, Savart and Suenen are all playing a part. And Jim, if you are looking for my humble advice, I would tell you to try your hand at several different ‘14 base grower NV champagnes that you might stumble upon as I am really liking the energy and verve which these wines display and then see for yourself if you get the same joy out of them as I do before taking a deeper plunge. And obviously, prices for some of these rise quickly when jumping from the NV to the single vineyard vintage bottling’s but it’s an eye opening and rewarding journey where regardless of whether I am tasting something for the first time, I frequently find myself thinking “why am I not drinking more this at home”.

As Jay Winton mentioned above, Envoyer is a great retailer out in California who direct imports many of these producers and b/c they are able to cut the middle man out of our wretched 3 tier system of importation, so many of their prices are less than wholesale pricing from the respective wholesalers here in the metro NY area.

Claudius2 - for my palate, I might also add Jacquesson, Pierre Peters, Ruinart and Vilmart to your short list but otherwise have no problems with it.

Musigny 151 - 110% in agreement regarding Taittinger Comtes de Champagne as it is easily the single greatest champagne value play (if you can say that for a wine that runs $130/btl) though, I have a strong feeling that the existing pricing disparity btw it and the other Tete de Cuvee offerings is nearing an end which reminds me, I really should buy more of the wonderful 2006.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:17 am

15% off sale on Champagne in NH, okay I'll ask you guys for some advice.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:33 am

Unfortunately they don't list the vintages but these appear to be the sale prices:

Tattinger Comtes de Champagne $118.99
Bollinger Special Cuvee Brut Champagne $63.74
Champagne Billecart-salmon Demi-sec $47.59
Charles Heidsieck Brut Reserve $50.99
Krug Grande Cuvee Brut $127.49
Roederer Brut Premier $45.04

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:37 am

The Taittinger and Krug are both good (not great) deals at those prices, irrespective of vintage or cuvée. If the Taittinger is the 08 Comtes (which seems unlikely as that might not be released yet?), buy like the wind!

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:03 am

Wine Cellarage has the 2005 Taittinger Comtes Rose for $102/bottle, the cheapest I have ever seen a vintage rose champagne. Not actually crazy about rose champagnes but at that price one might want to take a flyer. Also the 2006 Comte de Champagne BdB for $123 a bottle, by all accounts that is an excellent vintage and could well be better than the 2008 although I realize the 08 will be the flavor of the month when released.

That 05 Comtes Rose is also available for like $80 a bottle in London...I imagine with restaurants closed pricing just got unsustainable.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:55 pm

Curious as to peoples' views on whether the premium for vintage champagnes over NV is worth it. Is vintage better or just different?

Chris' point about style seems very accurate based on my experience at tastings. I recently got into Champagne for the first time by picking up a half case of 2006 Taittinger Comte and am a bit worried I won't like the style, perhaps I shouldn't have started by buying multiple bottles. I tend to like rich and creamy over sharp and pointy champagnes (not what is in fashion) and it is very hard to tell based on reviews whether a style is one I will like.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:30 am

So I made a surgical strike into Portsmouth NH this afternoon to see if I wanted to buy any champagne.
They still have the 2008 Dom in stock, and 168 Kug, the taittinger Comtes is 2007.
I ended up buying a single bottle of Roederer Brut Premier or whatever you call it, I like it!
I think I'll get more!

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:37 am

I’m wondering when the 2008 Taittinger Comtes will be released, and at what price.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:58 am

Yeah when I snuck down to Portsmouth NH yesterday they had the 2007 in stock, I passed.

jckba · Post by **jckba** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:27 pm

DavidG wrote:I’m wondering when the 2008 Taittinger Comtes will be released, and at what price.

I hear it will be here in the fall and where wholesale costs in New Jersey are going up $38 year over year so my best guess once it arrives via our wonderful 3 tiered distribution system is $185 - $200. With that said, your best bet might be to jump on a retailer of choice’s list that falls within a state that allows for direct importing as when you cut out the middleman, pricing is inevitably better.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:28 am

Thanks JC. Macarthurs direct imports and often has competitive prices. We shall see...

Jay Winton · Post by **Jay Winton** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:04 pm

JimHow wrote:Yeah when I snuck down to Portsmouth NH yesterday they had the 2007 in stock, I passed.

Based on a bottle I drank with Chris last year, it drinks well now and allows your 2006 to age.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:23 pm

Like I said the 06 Comtes is available for $123 so not sure why anyone would be buying the 08 at close to $200...can it be that much better?

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:18 pm

No idea how much better the 2008 will be, if at all, but even at $200 I'm still in for a bottle to find out. If it turns out to cost that much. Brad Baker was opining over on WB that the large amount of 2004, 2005, and 2006 Taittinger Comtes released over the past few years, plus a moderate amount of 2007, plus the delayed release of the 2008, may put downward pressure on pricing. Time will tell. If it's $150 or less, I'm an enthusiastic buyer.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:48 pm

I wonder if I should buy at least one bottle of the 2017 at that $118 price.
Seems like a reasonable price but nothing great.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:45 pm

I haven’t had the 2007 (assume that’s what you meant). It doesn’t have the reputation of 2006 or 2008 but if you dig Comtes I’m sure it’s a good wine and good value as tête-de-cuvée Champagnes go. Positive notes on CT from people I know but I don’t see where Stu has weighed in yet.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:58 pm

I don't think I've ever had this wine from any vintage, unless it has been served at a BWE function.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:24 pm

DavidG wrote:No idea how much better the 2008 will be, if at all, but even at $200 I'm still in for a bottle to find out. If it turns out to cost that much. Brad Baker was opining over on WB that the large amount of 2004, 2005, and 2006 Taittinger Comtes released over the past few years, plus a moderate amount of 2007, plus the delayed release of the 2008, may put downward pressure on pricing. Time will tell. If it's $150 or less, I'm an enthusiastic buyer.

PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE REASON PRICES NEVER DROP!

I tend to like broader, richer champagne vs angular and sharp-edged acidity so given what I've heard about the 2008 vintage character I suspect I might actually prefer the 2006

I'm starting to think that acidity and "sharpness" in whites and Champagnes could be like "big fruit" used to be for Parkerized wines, people want more and more of it possibly to a fault, and you can get deals if your palate preference diverges somewhat.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:03 pm

We had a ton of epic bubbly at the last BWE Convention of all time, Denver 2019, but my favorite was clearly the Vilmart coeur de cuvee 2000. I wanna find more of that.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:17 pm

Blanquito wrote:We had a ton of epic bubbly at the last BWE Convention of all time, Denver 2019, but my favorite was clearly the Vilmart coeur de cuvee 2000. I wanna find more of that.

DC 2020 was the last BWE convention! (of all time? [sob])

We will have epic bubbly at BWE France 2022 though!

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:29 pm

Yeah, I scoffed at Stefan when he told me that the France convention was going to be continued not into '21 but rather '22, but he appears to be correct.
I have five pending homicide cases and we have no idea when any of them are going to trial.
We are in a full-blown constitutional crisis, about to become wrorse on November 3rd....

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:34 pm

Champagne is supposed to be in crisis. It’s hard psychologically to celebrate in the middle of Covid. Traditional events that use a lot of Champagne are just not happening; weddings, graduations, anything that requires a lot of people are on hold.

So why in God’s name am I receiving e mails touting 2010 Dom Perignon from a seriously mediocre vintage for $185, more than I can buy the magnificent 2008?

BTW 2007 Taittinger is excellent. The Rose specially good, and fairly inexpensive for a Tete de Cuvée Champagne. My wife’s favorite.

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:59 pm

I think CA sparkly is suffering sales wise too, as that is also consumed in a celebratory fashion.

Out west we can now get the category crazy cheap if in state, and perhaps not going through 3 tiers. In recent times Mumm Napa has been $12, Roederer Estate $16, vintage Conundrum BdB $10ish etc. These are at grocery stores that don't ship.

My feel is that the damage to sales in the fine wine category (not that the above is in that) has years to play out. That Del Posto cellar sale (via HDH) seems like the harbinger of much more to come.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:54 pm

Musigny 151 wrote:BTW 2007 Taittinger is excellent.

+1. I've had the Comtes BdB 2007 several times and enjoyed it a lot (not 02 P-H Rare levels of enjoyment though).

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:06 pm

AKR wrote:I think CA sparkly is suffering sales wise too, as that is also consumed in a celebratory fashion.

Out west we can now get the category crazy cheap if in state, and perhaps not going through 3 tiers. In recent times Mumm Napa has been $12, Roederer Estate $16, vintage Conundrum BdB $10ish etc. These are at grocery stores that don't ship.

My feel is that the damage to sales in the fine wine category (not that the above is in that) has years to play out. That Del Posto cellar sale (via HDH) seems like the harbinger of much more to come.

Yeah. There was actually a boost in wine prices in the beginning of this due to people being bored at home + subsidies to the financial markets insulating the rich + tariff effects playing out. But longer term I think as you say the direction is down, this is just the beginning of things. I bought a fair amount this year and looking back I think that was a financial mistake. As I mentioned in the other thread, at the HDH auction I already saw case upon case of 2016 Bordeaux selling for 20% less than the retail price I bought it for.

DavidG · Post by **DavidG** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:17 pm

marcs wrote:
DavidG wrote:No idea how much better the 2008 will be, if at all, but even at $200 I'm still in for a bottle to find out. If it turns out to cost that much. Brad Baker was opining over on WB that the large amount of 2004, 2005, and 2006 Taittinger Comtes released over the past few years, plus a moderate amount of 2007, plus the delayed release of the 2008, may put downward pressure on pricing. Time will tell. If it's $150 or less, I'm an enthusiastic buyer.
PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE REASON PRICES NEVER DROP!

LOL...

I was working on a detailed reply in my head (IT'S NOT ME, REALLY, BECAUSE YADDA YADDA YADDA) but decided to go with:

The palate wants what the palate wants.

Cheers!

s*d*r · Post by **s*d*r** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:33 pm

DavidG wrote:I haven’t had the 2007 (assume that’s what you meant). It doesn’t have the reputation of 2006 or 2008 but if you dig Comtes I’m sure it’s a good wine and good value as tête-de-cuvée Champagnes go. Positive notes on CT from people I know but I don’t see where Stu has weighed in yet.

It seems my Comtes experience lately has been minimal, don’t know how that happened. I guess I decided to wait for the 2008. The only young one I’ve had is the ‘06 Rosé, which was hugely disappointing despite its gorgeous color and mousse.

I like the style a lot though, a mixture of peachy and citrus. Usually approachable young, although the ‘96 has just recently come around. I don’t know why they don’t charge higher prices since I think most of the currant buyers would still be takers. But it appears they finally woke up to their opportunity.

Jasper Morris, the Burgundy guy, in a review of the 2008 Champagne vintage recently rated the Comtes a 98, calling it “precise, citric and fresh” and “one of the wines of the vintage.” Only the Cristal rated higher (99).

Stu