"Super-expensive" wines -- are any worth it?

[marcs]

Hey guys. Wanted to ask the experienced tasters among us this question. There is a whole class of "super-expensive" wines that I just have not been able to drink or collect. For short, let's think of "super-expensive", vs merely expensive, as any wine over $250/bottle. These would include all first growths plus (usually) La Mission Haut Brion, a bunch of right bankers like Cheval Blanc, Petrus, etc. But are any of them really worth it, given that with knowledge you can drink extraordinarily well in the $100-150 / bottle range?

Have you guys found that any of these "super-expensive" wines are really worth the price unless one has an effectively unlimited budget?

[stefan]

No, but as a Bordeaux Wine Enthusiast you must drink first growths occasionally for calibration.

[DavidG]

My philosophy is that it's worth it once to see for myself. But only for wines that I'm really interested in. So a yes for a first growth but no to $400 Barolo.

Then there are those that are beyond super-expensive. Wines that are simply unaffordable or unjustifiable like Petrus or DRC. I've only experienced those through the generosity of others. I'd never spend thousands on a bottle unless 4 or 6 of us went in on it just to try it.

[SF Ed]

Its just fermented grape juice - of course by all normal standards it isn't worth it.

But I agree with stephan and DavidG - knowing what a 1st growth tastes like to set a bar/target is a good thing, and if you can afford it, the occasional top/expensive wine might be worth it. But generally, no. Especially given how expensive high end wines are these days.

SF Ed

[RPCV]

I agree with the philosophy of calibrating against a first growth or other higher-end Bordeaux, especially one from a good to excellent vintage with some age on it. Chasing points or rarities with dollars makes no sense to me.....too much excellent Bordeaux in the $100 or less range.

[marcs]

Thanks guys. Here's another way to put the question, to add specificity. Think of some of our great wines that are not quite "super-expensive" -- to be specific, Dave, think of the 2000 Pichon Baron at our Dino's dinner, the 2005 Bouchard Le Corton that was WOTN for I think our June 2019 get-together, the 2000 Canon La Gaffeliere we shared after the Zachys tasting, etc. -- those were amazing wine experiences that are basically impossible to get in the realm of $15-20 wines. I think also of some superb wines I've had alone, like the 1995 Grand Puy Lacoste recently at the perfect peak of aging for my taste. I mean, there's no way you could spend $20 on a bottle of wine and have an experience like that (ok, maybe if you nailed the PERFECT haut medoc and aged it just right LOL, but generally speaking it's impossible).

Is there another realm of wine experiences in the above $250 space that is to those wine experiences as those wine experiences are to supermarket wines? It's frankly hard to imagine that could possibly be the case, and I haven't really sensed that it was true in the big BWE dinners which are pretty much the only place in my life I have tasted First Growths. But I'm just checking in to put my FOMO to rest, LOL.

[marcs]

I should also mention that it was in part the thread on "the greatest wine you tasted" that motivated my question here, since almost all of the wines mentioned there were wines that would fall into the "super-expensive" category and I would not purchase due to price.

[stefan]

No to your second question as well. QPR Bordeaux wines that are often mentioned here can surpass high priced wines. For example, I consider La Lagune to rank close to the top of Ian's second growth list. I want L-L to be declassified for selfish reasons, not because of lack of quality.

[Blanquito]

Its just fermented grape juice

Ban?

[SF Ed]

Its just fermented grape juice

Ban?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[OrlandoRobert]

Yes

[Nicklasss]

Yes, super-expensive wines from Chile, Argentine, Australia, USA, Michel Rolland influenced red Bordeaux worth it.

Seriously, no. I never considered the price a good relationship or correlation of "worth it quality". Super-expensive wines (like any price wines) are exactly like SF Ed said, fermented grape juice. The price is function of many "soft emotional and unreal characteristics" (example: Chateau Angelus since it is a Grand Cru Classé "A". The same wine was 1/3 of actual price before this new status) and/or age of the wine (1982 Chateau Mouton Rothschild is now 1000$ a bottle, but it was what 35-40 $ in 1984) and/or rarity (example: Domaine Georges Roumier Musigny limited 600 bottles per year).

Depending on your nose/palate, your mood, who you drink the bottle with, and the bottle condition or age (too young, too old, not perfect), any wine can be ordinary or phenomenal, but i agree with you, you need to go over a minimum priçe limit to find a wine that "might worth it price".

Nic

[Nicklasss]

Yes

Best convincing answer i ever saw here. I have to look for those super-expensive over 250 $ a bottle Chinon wines I guess.

Nic

[OrlandoRobert]

Yes

Best convincing answer i ever saw here. I have to look for those super-expensive over 250 $ a bottle Chinon wines I guess.

Nic

Rougeard. Saumur-Champigny.

All you need to know, mon frere.

[tim]

There are some wine experiences that you can only achieve at that $250+ range. I think it is worth it occasionally, but not necessarily regularly. It also, of course, depends on the company you are with.

When I was in my auction spending spree in Paris, I bought a ton of shockingly incredible wines at well below $250. The odd thing, at the time, was that older wines were selling at lower prices than recent vintages. Not sure that is still the case. But some of the most memorable were some of the most expensive as well.

[DavidG]

A definite no to your second question Marcus. There is a point of diminishing returns, I suspect even for palates much more sophisticated than mine. And when it comes to "greatest ever" or "peak experience" wines, a certain amount of luck is required. Spending five to ten times more is no guarantee.

[NoahR]

I have complex thoughts on this.

My experience is that there are no great wines, just great bottles. A 1986 Gruaud Larose is perhaps the greatest Bordeaux experience. Have had a few bottles since, all of which were good but none quite as mesmerizing. It was a $100 bottle two years ago but weirdly the price has nearly tripled at auction since then. I guess I move markets... But I’ve never had a first growth (and I admit I’be had fewer than 20) that was as good as that Gruaud.

My most profound Burgundy experience was a 93 DRC Grands Echezeaux, which left me spellbound. Several other bottles of DRC have been great but not as profound. My next best Burgs have been somewhat random 1e’s that swung above their weight, but I don’t know that I’d ever be able to predict it.

My most profound Cali wine is 91 Monte Bello, which has also tripled in price in the last 3 years. Crazy. Annoying. The Baader-Meinhof phenomenon among wine buyers on a handful of boards drives auction prices. Crazy how word gets around. I suspect things were similar in 1855. But I’ve been more pleasantly surprised by older lesser known bargain bin cabs than by high end stuff. Had a 97 Harlan a year ago that was memorably alcoholic, overripe and undistinguished.

As far as price goes, We talk about Quality/Price Ratios, but I think Price x Disappointment = Remorse is a better concept.

I would guess that, for a lot of supposed Wine cognoscenti, you could put second rate wine in an expensive bottle and have people fawning over it. Rudy and Rodenstock can attest to that being the case.

[AKR]

Hey guys. Wanted to ask the experienced tasters among us this question. There is a whole class of "super-expensive" wines that I just have not been able to drink or collect. For short, let's think of "super-expensive", vs merely expensive, as any wine over $250/bottle. These would include all first growths plus (usually) La Mission Haut Brion, a bunch of right bankers like Cheval Blanc, Petrus, etc. But are any of them really worth it, given that with knowledge you can drink extraordinarily well in the $100-150 / bottle range?

Have you guys found that any of these "super-expensive" wines are really worth the price unless one has an effectively unlimited budget?

Chave red Hermitage is pretty amazing but is pretty costly.

Guigal's La La Cote Roties are also amazing, and expensive, but may not be to everyone's taste.

[OrlandoRobert]

Hey guys. Wanted to ask the experienced tasters among us this question. There is a whole class of "super-expensive" wines that I just have not been able to drink or collect. For short, let's think of "super-expensive", vs merely expensive, as any wine over $250/bottle. These would include all first growths plus (usually) La Mission Haut Brion, a bunch of right bankers like Cheval Blanc, Petrus, etc. But are any of them really worth it, given that with knowledge you can drink extraordinarily well in the $100-150 / bottle range?

Have you guys found that any of these "super-expensive" wines are really worth the price unless one has an effectively unlimited budget?

Chave red Hermitage is pretty amazing but is pretty costly.

Guigal's La La Cote Roties are also amazing, and expensive, but may not be to everyone's taste.

You can really say the same thing about almost any commodity, including homes. I mean really, I loved my Jeep Grand Cherokees - owned five of them - but when I jumped to the Rover, now on my second, it really is a step above even though the Jeep is damn fine. And like some great wines you can get for sub-$150, there are some things on that Jeep that compare to or are better than the Rover. I still take the Rover.

I’m not buying a lot of wine at $250+ and really am cost-conscious overall, especially since I also buy wine to drink every evening.

That said, there are some wines that really can transcend price, and if you can afford them, may be worth the fare at times.

All First Growths
Obviously Petrus, Cheval Blanc and Ausone
Obviously d’Yquem
DRC

I have some FGs and Petrus, but really am not buying them currently, pricing at $800+ has gotten crazy and painful. I had a DRC at Bern’s recently that was stoopid good, worth even the restaurant price. Split among six guys.

Those that I am more likely to buy than the above, and those that I currently have in my stash, as $250 does get you into their rarefied space:

Trotanoy
Vieux Chateau Certan
La Mission Haut Brion
Chave Hermitage
Clos Rougeard, Saumur-Champigny (Les Pouyeaux and Le Bourg)
Allemand Reynard, Cornas
Beaucastel Hommage
Verset, Cornas
Gonon Vieille Vignes
Figeac?

If you like Northern Rhone, and have not tried a Juge Cornas, that could be worth the splurge as well. As geeky as they come, and also hard to find as 2015 was the last vintage of the aging, iconic Marcel Juge. I did not pay $250 for them, but after-market, they range $350-$500. A worthy experience.

[JimHow]

Thanks to Stuart, Tom, and others, I've tasted Petrus several times.
The one time it really blew me away was the 1989 Petrus that Stuart brought to Denver last year.
It was at another level.

[JimHow]

Oh, wait, the vintage that MichaelP brought to lunch in France 2015 as well, what year was that again, like a '54 or some such thing.

[OrlandoRobert]

Thanks to Stuart, Tom, and others, I've tasted Petrus several times.
The one time it really blew me away was the 1989 Petrus that Stuart brought to Denver last year.
It was at another level.

Yup. Still the best wine that I have ever had. Have been lucky to share it twice, full bottle, with a close friend. Will be popping the 1998 with that friend as well. Maybe NYE? I waffle, could use a few more years really.

Sadly, I’m way too poor for Petrus. Poor-Man’s Petrus is Trotanoy and VCC!

[JimHow]

I have a lone 1995 Petrus in my cellar.
I was thinking of uncorking it when Nicola is allowed across the border to celebrate the end of the plague, but, likewise, I'm concerned it may be too young.
I have a feeling it needs another couple blanquitos.
I'm sure we'll be able to find something good down there!

[Comte Flaneur]

Oh, wait, the vintage that MichaelP brought to lunch in France 2015 as well, what year was that again, like a '54 or some such thing.

1934

[Comte Flaneur]

The relative price of super expensive wines has increased a lot in the last 30 years or so. In hindsight they were great purchases. I paid £600 for my case of Ch La Mission 1989, £900 for Ch Margaux 1982 and £2450 for my case of Ch Pertrus 1990. Later I traded three bottles of this for a bottle each of DRC RC and La Tache 1980. So I am one of the lucky ones.

But today a super second like Pichon Baron is close enough in quality to Latour to obviate any justification for going for the FG. I hate to admit this but I have been buying FGs from recent vintages to speculate. I bought 2018 Lafite (150th anniversary) already up 25% (thanks Mark) and 2018 Mouton (with the Chinese Label, which has already taken off), both in a three pack and a six pack with the aim of drinking the three pack for nothing.

[s*d*r]

To me, super expensive wines fall into two categories: new release and old.

Mature examples of the same wine can of course cost multiples of the new release. Surprisingly, with Bordeaux that is only partly true, due to the price escalation of new release in the last 10 years.

I rarely find new release red wine worth a huge amount of money. But to find a mature wine from a great vintage from 25+ years ago in perfect condition and provenance, maybe. Especially if it was so rare even on release that I have never tasted it. For a once-in-a-lifetime extreme example, I would cite Le Pin.

Obviously what is expensive/super expensive/jaw dropping/mind numbing is directly related to your income or net worth and your fixed expenses. According to Vivino, the average cost in the US for a bottle of wine is $15.66. Most people would consider a $25 bottle extravagant. I’m guessing Bill Gates and the like would not be concerned about buying a case or two of Romanée-Conti, though.

There are a few super expensive wines whose taste is unique to me. I would include Le Pin, Pétrus, Mouton, Pichon-Lalande, Haut-Brion, La Mission Haut-Brion, some Montrachet, Cristal, Cristal Rosé and Krug champagne among others.

Also obviously, paying a sh!t ton by no means guarantees a great experience. Of the super expensive wines I have drunk, about half of them have been “worth it.”

The best advice, as given above, is to enjoy buying the excellent wines you are comfortable purchasing - but try to attend tastings where someone else has brought something you would otherwise not get to try. There is no reason to pay up for the trophies if you either cannot tell the difference or do not even enjoy them.

Stu

[JoelD]

I've thought about this one for a while, wasn't sure how to respond, nor do I have experience by many wines over $400, definitely not over $600.

I've found that I am always way more excited by the wines that I got for a steal of a deal, say 100 bucks for a wine that goes for 150, but tastes like it should cost 300.

To counter that, I have been slightly underwhelmed by a few wines that trade for $200-400. While not bad by any means, not "worth" the cost relative to the deals above.

The absolute best value in old wine right now is old Barolo. Which can be had for a song, and when you do your research can seriously outperform its value.

However, like most above, I do value the occasional experience and the potential epiphany wine that some of these "super expensive" wines can give. So I have started to pull the trigger on ones that I think will outperform their value. Especially if I find a good deal.

Hopefully once I taste more of these, I will be able to pinpoint which ones I believe are worth it and not.

I currently cannot fathom paying 1k for a Harlan. Yet my BURGUNDY friends swear by it. Call me skeptical for now. Will update if this changes

[s*d*r]

I currently cannot fathom paying 1k for a Harlan. Yet my BURGUNDY friends swear by it. Call me skeptical for now.

Stay skeptical, Joel. That’s a perfect example of a trophy wine my Bordeaux palate finds totally unappealing.

My favorite beverage is lemonade, especially sparkling. Love the stuff when the balance between tart and sweet is just right. No better flavor. But it’s a simple pleasure. What I want from wine, what I empty my bank account for, is complexity. The kaleidoscopic array of smell and taste in great wine has no equal in beverage or food.

Stu

[OrlandoRobert]

I currently cannot fathom paying 1k for a Harlan. Yet my BURGUNDY friends swear by it. Call me skeptical for now.

Stay skeptical, Joel. That’s a perfect example of a trophy wine my Bordeaux palate finds totally unappealing.

100%

[Musigny 151]

A theme which I can wax lyrically for several pages. Trying a quick summary.

1. The occasional bottle is worthwhile, but for the most part, the gap particularly with younger wines is getting smaller.

2. The most expensive foods, caviar, foie gras, Kobe beef, lobsters, white truffles etc will set you back perhaps $150 if you ate all of them at home. But that same $150 would get you a middling Bordeaux and a low tier Burgundy. A Petrus would feed you for a couple of week, and a Romanee Conti for three months.

3. We used to have a yearly BYO over the top lunch. and that is when people would shake the dust off two of their most precious bottles and share it with the group. One of the wines was seriously expensive, the other fairly, but something the host truly loved. We were younger then, and the lunch lasted for the best part of six hours, and for the most part, we were able to appreciate every bottle we tasted. We are planning a one bottle post COVID event, with one bottle, and it should be epic. Sharing with others is a good way to taste seriously expensive wine and gauge whether they are worthwhile.

4. Expensive bottles are just as likely to be corked or spoiled as the mid range. Nothing worse than putting a bottle aside, playing Mozart to it every week, stroking it every so often and then the frigging thing is corked.

5. I get more pleasure from surprises than anything else I do with wine. My wine of the year Bruno Thierry Cote Rotie 1969 was a total shock. It was actually one of those transcendent moments where what was in the glass did not correlate with expectations. Those moments are more meaningful than getting a glass that does.

[Musigny 151]

I currently cannot fathom paying 1k for a Harlan. Yet my BURGUNDY friends swear by it. Call me skeptical for now.

Stay skeptical, Joel. That’s a perfect example of a trophy wine my Bordeaux palate finds totally unappealing.

100%

Yup. Tasted a few Harlans, and they may seem impressive, but after the first couple of sips, they come off ultimately as a bit boring. I would reach for a second glass if there was nothing else on the table, but would prefer a halfway decent glass of Bordeaux.

[RPCV]

I spent part of my Honeymoon at Meadowood back in '96. Purchased a 3 magnum case of the first three vintages (90-92) along with a few 750's. Sold the magnum set in '98 for $3800 for the same reason and bought a bunch of Bordeaux, Northern Rhone and Burgundy with the proceeds. So glad.

[JoelD]

5. I get more pleasure from surprises than anything else I do with wine. My wine of the year Bruno Thierry Cote Rotie 1969 was a total shock. It was actually one of those transcendent moments where what was in the glass did not correlate with expectations. Those moments are more meaningful than getting a glass that does.

+1

Very good summary, Mark. That is basically exactly what I meant I my head. You just said it more eloquently. Right now I have had the most experiences like that with old Barolo and riesling with age. Like a 1996 Selbach Oster Spatlese I had this summer, that I got for less than $30 recently.

[Antoine]

I get the impression that speculators have taken over red Burgundy from top producers and prices can only go up without quality reason. To take one example, Mugneret Gibourg NSG Chaignots was great buy at 40-50£, it is now ridiculously priced... as for their Grand crus... excellent but grotesque prices...
Never bought a bottle with a view to sell it... but maybe my children will when I pass away... not sure they fancy opening a bottle worth 1000$ to drink it...

[DavidG]

I agree that the positive surprises - wines that are unexpectedly stunning, that punch WAAAY above their weight - are great experiences.

Super-expensive wines face the challenge of heightened expectations. If they don't knock it out of the park, it's a disappointment. So they are risky from a psychological standpoint as well as a physical one (corked, heat-damaged, etc.).

[Musigny 151]

I get the impression that speculators have taken over red Burgundy from top producers and prices can only go up without quality reason. To take one example, Mugneret Gibourg NSG Chaignots was great buy at 40-50£, it is now ridiculously priced... as for their Grand crus... excellent but grotesque prices...
Never bought a bottle with a view to sell it... but maybe my children will when I pass away... not sure they fancy opening a bottle worth 1000$ to drink it...

The eternal dilemma; how do you price your wines. What you paid or what it is worth? Would you buy your MGs at their current prices? Personally I go for current pricing. I have some very expensive bottles in the cellar, and they tend to be wines I am happy to drink. That being said, every bottle in the cellar is for sale at the right price. I can always find wine I want to drink.


To your other point. Speculators have really taken over the top end of the wine market, particularly Burgundy. There was an odd time around 2010, when the Chinese entered the market and were chasing everything Bordeaux. I hate to say it, but Burgundy looked well cheap. It didn’t last long. I always figured that the learning curve from Bordeaux to Burgundy was eight to ten years. Chinese buyers mastered it in three, and prices shot up.

Rousseau Chambertin went from $200 in 2002, to $500 in 2010 to its high of $3000.

[JimHow]

Some of my most consistently great experiences with super expensive wines have been with DRC: 93 Echezeaux, 88 La Tache, 96 Grands Echezeaux, 04 Richebourg. They were every bit as spectacular as expected.

[marcs]

Unfortunately the more celebrated bottlings for DRC and Rousseau have basically become completely inaccessible to non-zillionaire purchasers. I say this not only because of the price per bottle, but because IME, especially for older wines, you need to get 2-3 bottles to be sure you have the advertised experience for an older wine.

There are only two times in my wine history that I have splurged and gone "super-expensive" by the >$250/bottle definition. One was for three bottles of 2003 Latour. The other time, more recently, was for a case of 2005 Chave Hermitage. I probably overpaid for the Chave since I got it from an auction house where deals are rare, if I had hung around I could have gotten it for less -- I have seen the 2010, a higher valued vintage, go at auction for a bit less than I paid. OTOH the case I got has perfect provenance. I haven't touched either of those purchases. I do have a number of bottles, as probably we all do, that have escalated above $250 after I paid well under that figure for them. That is also the point at which I start becoming tempted to sell one.

But $250 / bottle is, shall we say, an extraordinarily generous threshold for "super-expensive". If you can't find a whole bunch of truly great wines under that price you need to hand in your collector card.

[marcs]

Rousseau Chambertin went from $200 in 2002, to $500 in 2010 to its high of $3000.

Not to mention things like Jadot Chambertin Beze going to $300-400/bottle! That's where it really bites, you can forego one or two producers but in the past three to five years or so it has moved down into the less glamorous high quality bottles.

[Nicklasss]

Super-expensive wines face the challenge of heightened expectations. If they don't knock it out of the park, it's a disappointment. So they are risky from a psychological standpoint as well as a physical one (corked, heat-damaged, etc.).

+1.

This the real problem. It is not because you pay >250 $ a bottle that the wine will be good or up to your expectations or completely satisfying to your nose and palate. You have to know yourself well.

Nic