Ranking of the 80's Vintages, Specifically 85 vs 86

[JoelD]

I've been diving into buying and trying more Bordeaux from the 80's over the last year. Largely due to intrigue from chats on this site. During that, I keep coming back to the 1985 and 1986 vintages as they were both obviously quite good. However I seem to find that it really appears to be producer by producer one which vintage fared better.

Maybe I am missing a connection. Did one vintage seem to be better in certain communes over others? Is it producer by producer? Personal preference on the vintage style like we see with 2014 vs 2015/ 1989 vs 1990/ 2009 vs 2010. Or even 2000 vs 2005.

More focused on the left bank here but would like to hear thoughts on both sides and see if I can improve my knowledge and buying process in the future.

Any insights about these two vintages would be appreciated. Especially anything to seek out specifically or any wines to avoid specifically.

[Nicklasss]

Hi JoelD.

If you're avoiding the highly price wines, i would recommend in 1986 Cos d'Estournel, Pichon Lalande and Gruaud Larose. Three great 86's, that are surely drinking nicely now.

In 1985, a bit harder to say for me, but I would say pichon Lalande and Léoville Las Cases are probably still excellent. I think it was a bit better on the right bank do.

In the past, Lynch Bages was excellent in both vintages. Don't know how they would do today.

Nic

[SF Ed]

1985 is a medium sized, round, easily approachable vintage which has probably seen its peak but was really good 15 years ago. It is generally equally good in the right and left bank.

1986 is a large, tannic, unapproachable vintage which is drinking well now. Mostly for folks who like structure or wines that had enough fruit to outlast the structure. Left bank was much much better than the right.

In 1985, Las Cases is a good shout. Lynch Bages was great for years (and was heavily bought as I think it was a Wine Spectator Wine of the Year back in the day).

In 1986, I am a huge fan of Talbot, Gruaud Larose, Pichon Lalande and Lafite. I like structure, so I almost always love 1986s.

[OrlandoRobert]

Yup. 1986 all day long.

[DavidG]

What Ed said. 1986 took patience, but those who waited were richly rewarded. For drinking now, 86 for sure.

[Comte Flaneur]

Based on my experience 1982 is clearly and consistently the best vintage in the 1980s, taking in to account both banks. It is also the best vintage on the left bank.

The 1985 vintage has turned out better than 1986. It is much more consistent, better on the right bank, and while it drank well young, the wines are generally NOT going over the hill, if anything the 1985s are holding up better than 1982s.

Certainly better than the 1983s and 1988s which generally need drinking outside the first growths. 1989 and 1990 are both excellent on both banks, but they are warm/hot vintages. Back to the 1986s they can be epic on the left bank, but they are so inconsistent and that includes Mouton and Margaux.

My pecking order would be 1982, 1985, 1989, 1990, 1986, 1983, 1988, 1981; 81s need drinking, 80/84/87 are generally over the hill but the standout wines from these vintages are Margaux and PLL 1980 and Mouton 87.

[Racer Chris]

I've had more '86s but the four '85s I drank last year were all enjoyed, with the Margaux being among the best Bordeaux I ever had.
The '86s I've drank have almost all been from the Cordier stable so have been excellent to outstanding.

[Claudius2]

Guys
I am going to classify the decade as 81 to 90 and not 80 to 89 based on basic math.
Can I make an important point first. My ranking is based on the overall vintage and not on one or a few stars.
I also argue that focusing on the very best wines misses the point as it is the vintage we are ranking and I think that the average wines are often a better indicator of the overall quality of a vintage than the very top wines.
Having said that I have ranked them plus added a few notes:

1982: great vintage overall
1990: excellent vintage but needed care with selection and potential over production
1989: dark ripe style maybe less consistent than 82 or 90 but excellent. Maybe fewer stars than in 90?
1988: excellent vintage on both banks and Graves. Not the rich ripe style but excellent balance and length
1985: very good to excellent on both banks without the richness of 82 or 89 but medium bodied and very good
1986: very good to excellent on left bank and produced tannic and powerful wines. Not so great on RB thus I can’t rate it above 88 or 85 overall.
1983: pretty good on both banks and excellent in Margaux and Graves. Underrated on the right bank.
1981: good to very good overall but gets overshadowed by the top vintages. In the 70s it would be a well ranked vintage.
1984 and 1987: I have had few from either as they were not popular in Australia but I would say I have had a few decent 84s so 87 comes last.

Overall this decade restored the fame and prosperity to Bordeaux which had not done well economically during the previous few decades.

[DavidG]

My ranking is based more on how they showed when I actually drank the bulk of them than on how they would show today.
1982
1990/1989
1986
1985
1988
1983/1981
1987
1984
1980

[JoelD]

Based on my experience 1982 is clearly and consistently the best vintage in the 1980s, taking in to account both banks. It is also the best vintage on the left bank.

The 1985 vintage has turned out better than 1986. It is much more consistent, better on the right bank, and while it drank well young, the wines are generally NOT going over the hill, if anything the 1985s are holding up better than 1982s.

Certainly better than the 1983s and 1988s which generally need drinking outside the first growths. 1989 and 1990 are both excellent on both banks, but they are warm/hot vintages. Back to the 1986s they can be epic on the left bank, but they are so inconsistent and that includes Mouton and Margaux.

My pecking order would be 1982, 1985, 1989, 1990, 1986, 1983, 1988, 1981; 81s need drinking, 80/84/87 are generally over the hill but the standout wines from these vintages are Margaux and PLL 1980 and Mouton 87.

Thanks Ian, your response was very insightful and put together as always. I am looking forward to trying some 85's soon. I hope to find a D'Issan, I know you loved that. I just got a bunch of 375ml Beychevelle 1985. Hopefully those have held up in the halves.

Have you noticed any correlation between the different communes of the left bank having better 85's or 86's? Or within each vintage, were there certain communes that tended to shine?
Also St Emilion Vs Pomerol?

Looking through CT reviews and others, it just seems to be very producer to producer on which is their more liked wine.

[JoelD]

Guys
I am going to classify the decade as 81 to 90 and not 80 to 89 based on basic math.
Can I make an important point first. My ranking is based on the overall vintage and not on one or a few stars.
I also argue that focusing on the very best wines misses the point as it is the vintage we are ranking and I think that the average wines are often a better indicator of the overall quality of a vintage than the very top wines.
Having said that I have ranked them plus added a few notes:

1982: great vintage overall
1990: excellent vintage but needed care with selection and potential over production
1989: dark ripe style maybe less consistent than 82 or 90 but excellent. Maybe fewer stars than in 90?
1988: excellent vintage on both banks and Graves. Not the rich ripe style but excellent balance and length
1985: very good to excellent on both banks without the richness of 82 or 89 but medium bodied and very good
1986: very good to excellent on left bank and produced tannic and powerful wines. Not so great on RB thus I can’t rate it above 88 or 85 overall.
1983: pretty good on both banks and excellent in Margaux and Graves. Underrated on the right bank.
1981: good to very good overall but gets overshadowed by the top vintages. In the 70s it would be a well ranked vintage.
1984 and 1987: I have had few from either as they were not popular in Australia but I would say I have had a few decent 84s so 87 comes last.

Overall this decade restored the fame and prosperity to Bordeaux which had not done well economically during the previous few decades.

Great vintage descriptions Claudius. Very helpful. Interesting to see 1986 getting less love from you and Ian. I'll pose the same question, did you notice specific communes on the left bank out performing others in either the 85 or 86 vintage? This question can also apply to St Emilion vs Pomerol as well.

[Comte Flaneur]

Joel I think you could say that 1985 is strong and consistent right across the board left and right banks.

The 1986 vintage is stronger on the left bank for sure, but I actually think it is under-rated on the right bank. The 1986 lefties can be great powerful wines; they can also lack grace and charm. Crack open a Leoville Barton and you’ll see what I mean.

[Blanquito]

Count me as preferring 85>86 overall. If the total number of great wines in a vintage is the metric, then 85 wins easily because both the right bank and left bank wines are wonderful in 85. I’ve had quite a few spectacular 85s from St Emilion and Pomerol, as well as from the Medoc (where it shows more of a red fruited profile than the chunkier darker 86s). If we’re just talking about the Medoc, 86 has a much stronger case of course and the top 20 wines in 86 are sublime. My biggest problem with the 85s is there has long been a significant price premium on them compared to the 86s, so through the years I’ve been able to backfill the 86s much more reasonably (until a few years ago at least).

[Gerry M.]

On the subject of 1985, I have 3 different bottles that I have no experience with and would appreciate any recs on when to drink by.

- Cos
- Lynch Bages
- Leoville Barton

[johnz]

On the subject of 1985, I have 3 different bottles that I have no experience with and would appreciate any recs on when to drink by.

- Cos
- Lynch Bages
- Leoville Barton

In my opinion none of the above are getting any better. In fact, while I have loved many 1985 Leoville Barton bottles over the last 2+ decades, they are becoming variable at this point. I would drink these now. 1986 bordeaux is a completely different animal.

--Gary Rust

[Musigny 151]

Another who prefers the 1985 to 1986 vintage.

Again, I don’t really like making blanket assessments of vintage, as it is essentially meaningless. We all have access to the net here, and none of us buy vintages, we buy wines. There are estates that made better wine in one than another, and they are easy enough to find.

[Claret]

85 Cos was really good when last tasted about 20 years ago.

[Blanquito]

I agree with those who say the 85s are drink now wines. But I don’t think the 86s are really improving anymore at this point either (first growths and LLC excluded), though they should hold at their current peak for a good while still.

[JoelD]

Interesting to see Ian, Mark and Patrick all tend to prefer the 85's. That actually tells me a lot, I am quite curious to see which I tend to prefer. Looking forward to some 85 Beychevelle. Also 86 Lynch Bages and 86 Pichon Lalande(I had this out of Double Magnum at BWE 2020 and I thought it was easily 10-15 years too young, tannic and structured. although many loved it, maybe out of a 750 it will be more advanced)

[stefan]

On the left bank, I think the highs in 1986 are definitely better than the highs in 1995 within most of the equivalence classes. OTOH, it was hard to find a less than charming 1985 before they started declining.

[Nicklasss]

On the subject of 1985, I have 3 different bottles that I have no experience with and would appreciate any recs on when to drink by.

- Cos
- Lynch Bages
- Leoville Barton

In my opinion none of the above are getting any better. In fact, while I have loved many 1985 Leoville Barton bottles over the last 2+ decades, they are becoming variable at this point. I would drink these now. 1986 bordeaux is a completely different animal.

--Gary Rust

+1

The 1985 have always been excellent wines, in the concentrated fruity complex claret style. I preferred the 1985 also to the 1986. Let say of the wines I had both vintage, it looks like:

Preferred 1985 for: Haut Brion, La Mission Haut Brion, Pape Clément, Lynch Bages, Grand-Puy Lacoste, Léoville Barton, Margaux, Palmer, La Lagune, Canon.

Prefered 1986 for : Mouton Rothschild, Gruaud Larose (but 1985 not far), Cos d'Estournel (1986 with minimum 90 min decanting, but 1985 not far), Pichon Lalande (but 1985 not far), Talbot.

Nic

[Claudius2]

Gerry M
I drank the 85 Leoville Barton at a big vertical last year and it was WOTN with Burgundy like softness, red fruit, autumnal characters and long finish.
Cos should be very good. I have not tried it for some years but I’ve drunk it on a handful of occasions. No recent experience with the Lynch Bages but I recall it as similar in style to the Barton.

No need to hold any of these they are almost certainly fully mature.

Joel/Ian
I actually think 86 is an excellent Left bank vintage but the tannins are rather firm and thus some wines were a little TOO tannic, though the good wines were and still are very good.
In the right bank they are quite variable and I have found 1985 to be better overall as the vintage was more even across the regions. Again 1986 is a very good vintage so ranking it is a little misleading. I also think 1983 is under appreciated possibly as it was not a top Medoc vintage except for Margaux. Many right bank wines were also excellent.

I have always liked 1988 and rate it just above 1985 as it has more dark fruit and intensity to my palate.

[Gerry M.]

Thanks everyone for your responses. It looks like I need an excuse to have a 85' horizontal once its safe.

[s*d*r]

I really wanted to love the ‘85s. Supposedly suave middleweights, elegant and well perfumed. But somehow almost all of them disappointed me, mostly because they were just too soft, too demure. Château Margaux avoids those demerits though and is WOTV for me.

Stu

[Blanquito]

My sampling of the 85s has been relatively narrow, but boy do I love them. e.g. the 85 and the 86 Beychevelle are great... but I prefer the 85. Only the 85 Mouton has been disappointing.

[Nicklasss]

If you're a fakir, and likes nails, you surely prefer 1986.

If you're a little kitty, with a new born soft delicate and precise nose and palate, go for 1985.

[Musigny 151]

Meow!

[DavidG]

My long-ago tasting group called themselves the Tannin Pigs.
Can you guess I prefer 1986?