Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

The 67 PM result of 85 Mouton winning a FG tasting made me think about that.

We all have our own nose and palate, and like to discuss about our favorite wines. We also all have personnal preferences, and some wines we will never appreciate for all type of reasons.

Let say, a wine you have taste a few times, on a few different vintages, but never made it for you. Maybe you just don't like it, or did not understand the reputation (or the wine price) compared to what you tasted, or simply it is not your style.

For myself, everyone here know I'm not a fan of high end Pessac Léognan white. I find them extremely oaky, in a weird style, and way too exotic ripe fruit. I have a few exceptions i like, but i rarely buy Pessac Léognan white. Knowing that, you'll easily understand that the top underachiever wine for me is Chateau Haut Brion blanc. I never really understood that wine, the 3 or 4 times i had it, and basically, did not liked it very much, especially for the price. I know, a tough and sad call.

So what is your top underachiever wine?

Nic

By the way, i'm not sure "underachiever" is the right word. If you have a better one to suggest, don't hesitate.

Oooooh, this will be very controversial but I have a few:

Lafarge Volnay. Always highly rated, never ready to drink, always needs a few more blanquitos.
Chave Hermitage (white and red). I just don't get it, where's the fruit? The elegance? All I ever got is structure and dusty tannins. I love Chave Cotes du Rhone and St Joseph, though.
Leoville Barton. Everyone here loves it. I have tried, it always feels tight and austere to me. I'm tired of trying yet another promising vintage.
Pontet Canet. See Leoville Barton.

And I understand Nicolas. I also don't get White Bordeaux. The Haut brion blanc in particular is a wine I have tasted 3-4 times and always wondered why...

jal wrote:Oooooh, this will be very controversial but I have a few:

Lafarge Volnay. Always highly rated, never ready to drink, always needs a few more blanquitos.
Chave Hermitage (white and red). I just don't get it, where's the fruit? The elegance? All I ever got is structure and dusty tannins. I love Chave Cotes du Rhone and St Joseph, though.
Leoville Barton. Everyone here loves it. I have tried, it always feels tight and austere to me. I'm tired of trying yet another promising vintage.
Pontet Canet. See Leoville Barton.

And I understand Nicolas. I also don't get White Bordeaux. The Haut brion blanc in particular is a wine I have tasted 3-4 times and always wondered why...

Thus far I completely agree about Leoville Barton(although the 96 was very solid, and we'll see if the 02 I open this weekend changes anything), Pontet Canet and pretty much all white Bordeaux. I don't get them either. I would much rather have champagne or white burg.

Also thus far, I have been very underwhelmed by Pichon Lalande. And have tried some good vintages, although not the top ones such as 82 or 89. Will report back on the 86 and 89. I do however Love Pichon Baron. I probably just need to try more.

La Lagune. Why is a crummy Haut-Medoc a third growth? It should be unclassified.

stefan, trying to undo the damage he has done to his pocketbook by praising L-L.

For me, its Mouton. Not remotely close to the other first growths in my opinion. Performs for me like a 2nd growth. 1855 had that one right.

SF Ed

I’m long on the record that I don’t really like Leoville Las Cases and/or it’s never ready. More recent vintages might have broken this streak — I actually liked the 02 when I tried it — but even at best it seems overpriced/overrated. For ages, this also summed up my general feeling about red Burgundy (but I’ve started to come around)!

I feel the same way about the pre-1990 vintages of Leoville Barton, but I love it from 1990-present. I am also a big fan of Bordeaux Blanc!

The 1994 Leoville Las Cases is to me one of the wines of the 1994 vintage. I also loved the 2002, Patrick. We had it with some friends a few months ago and it was delicious. A 1978 in Sarasota when DavidG and JimHow came to visit 3 years ago was stunning. But I agree that it takes a long time to come around.

Stefan, I agree. La Lagune is awful swill. Stay far far away everyone.

The only red Bordeaux i had a few vintages, that I can think of as an underachiever, is Troplong Mondot.

Just had it. 2000 Smith Haut Laffite. Never was great in prior vintages, but saw the 2000 at a good price. It screamed Graves style in nose and taste. Delish. Perhaps the beginning of the turn around.

Since Stefan hasn’t, I am officially stepping up here to offer to take all of BWE’s stocks of that swill La Lagune off of your hands, as a public service. So it can be safely and properly disposed of. Heck, I’ll even pay you what it cost on release, I’m just that kinda guy.

Older wines from the Margaux appellation. While of course Chateaux Margaux is usually a winner, I have had more than a few disappointments from virtually the entirety of Margaux. Once they hit a certain age, they take on a stewed tomato flavor. Even Palmer has displayed this characteristic.

In Bordeaux it would have to be Angelus - an interloper if ever there was one, which flatters to deceive.

I would probably add Leoville Poyferre too - the weakest of the Leovilles which is clearly a more contrived wine made in the cellar than the other two Leovilles.

Other Bordeaux I don’t seem to get along with for similar reasons from the Margaux appellation are Malescot Saint-Exupery, Kirwan and Lascombes, which all taste Parkerised to me.

In burgundy it would probably be Sylvain Cathiard which is very expensive and I don’t get it, but not tried much of it.

I find the nervosity and tension in Lafarge exhilarating, I love white Bordeaux and don’t own nearly enough of it, Chave to me is the epitome of Northern Rhone, Leovilles Barton and Lascases are among my very favourite wines ever, I adore Mouton, on balance I am a fan of Pontet Canet and I even quite like that Southern Medoc swill that stefan keeps banging on about.

Wow
This thread had really opened a can of worms.

So I am not picking on one wine and have mentioned several but they are not necessarily poor or disappointing just perform below what their status and price would suggest:

Bordeaux
I have already rattled a few cages by ranking Mouton below the other Premiers Crus so I agree with SF Ed.
Again I am NOT saying it is a poor wine.
Pontet Canet - sorry just can’t love this wine.
Kirwan and Lascombes - agree with Ian. Maybe I like Malescot however.
A few others I don’t get are Haut Batailley and Brane Cantenac but not tried the latter for a while.
As for Leoville B and P, I have not bought either since 2004 but prefer LB - classic understated style.

As a general note I never buy white Bordeaux as my palate is intrigued by Burgundy and the better Aussie Chardonnays.
I also avoid Graves and most Pessac wines - I do however love HB and LMHB. But so do most drinkers.

Burgundy
I have never been wowed by D’angerville or Pousse D’or.
Also Chandon Brialles and Champy but not so up on them as I import my own Burgundies and stick to favourites.
I find many Chablis to be disappointing and I don’t like where Chablis has gone with a few exceptions.

Australia
I do not like the hi alc Parkerised wines from Barossa and McLaren Vale but I still like these regions.
It may sound like sacrilege for an Aussie but Grange does not wow me and I’ve tried many vintages. Expectation gap?

New Zealand
One of my least fav wine producing countries which never stops underwhelming me.
I hate Sav Blanc at the best of times but there are few Noo Zeelund wines I enjoy and the ones I used to like keep changing.
C’est la vie.

Champagne.
Mumm is no better than supermarket Prosecco and Veuve Clicquot is okay.

Rhone
No standout disappointments to me but I’d argue that CdePape as a region is over rated and over priced.
I think Chapoutier is variable but so are several others.
Never been a Chave fan either but they age well.

Cheers
Mark

LLC has disappointed often due to not being ready. Maybe my fault for lack of patience but it is what it is.

Angelus used to be a favorite, the 89 and 90 were fabulous and really hooked me. Its style and my palate have diverged since. I kept coming back, thinking there was still a chance for love like Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber, until multiple disappointments and increasing prices finally convinced me to give up.

Almost the entire appellation of Chateauneuf: they got riper as I became less tolerant. There are a handful of exceptions but lots of old favorites are dead to me now.

David, do you have any experience with the 1998 Angelus? I purchased a magnum for my nephew's birth year in anticipation of a family celebration at some point. I might find another use for it if it is too modern.

I'm not DavidG but I did buy 6 bottles of 1998 Angelus on release and I've drunk 5 of them. Its a really good wine but it is modern in style. Lots of fruit and lots of oak. A magnum is going to drink well for a long time.

SF Ed

Thanks, Ed.

Most of the exalted wines that tend to leave me baffled are blancs/bubbly

* white Graves/Pessac
* Huet's
* fancy Sancerre
* even most regular white Burgundy, excluding Chablis which I like
* tete du cuvee bubbly is nice but i don't get 5x enjoyment out of it vis a vis NV

I had three bottles of 1998 Angelus. The first two were as SF Ed described. I did not like them but understand why many do. The third bottle was so full of brett that I could hardly drink it.

SF Ed wrote:I'm not DavidG but I did buy 6 bottles of 1998 Angelus on release and I've drunk 5 of them. Its a really good wine but it is modern in style. Lots of fruit and lots of oak. A magnum is going to drink well for a long time.

SF Ed

Agree with this. I had a couple and they were among the best since the 89/90, but definitely more modern.

Amazing how many think alike and how tastes/impressions differ. I know Nic loves LLC but I have never been wowed by it ever. Good yes but never has it stopped me in my tracks to pause and give it a wow. Probably the most disappointing bottles that I bought at auction were a couple of 82s that were RP 100 pointers and I had great expectations and there is nothing worse than paying a reasonable dollar for the experience and only being disappointed. I've not turned away a bottle over the years in company but this is one that I will never seek out or have a single bottle in my cellar! It's a little strange to admit that for years I preferred the Clos du Marquis over the LLC and it was our guest regular table wine through the 90s and was always a crowd pleaser.

Years back I picked up a number of vintages of Angelus that Sams in Chicago was clearing out at $59/bottle and I picked up 3 of each the 83,86,89 & 96 smuggling it back to Canada thinking it was a steal. Though each has been good again no WOW factor.

Mouton has had more disappointing vintages than not with my first being a tannic monster from 75 and said WTF followed by 70 which was hohum. 76 nothing left and 54 DOA. 82 a number of times was magic in a bottle but several occasions paired up against the Latour it was a noticeable second place finisher. The 86 and 90 have shone along with the 95/96 with the latter closer to prime time. 2000 will be incredible but still infanticide as of last summer. As said earlier when Mouton is on its on!!

I'll still defend Pontet Canet for what it is. A lot of hype over the years but remember when JimH first started talking about this I was picking up bottles for $49 can 98-2004 then big escalation in $$$ yearly since. Similar JH effect happening with Tour St Christophe with 2014 vintage $29, $35 for the 2015/16 and $49 for the 18. Couldn't even acquire the 19 futures at $54 as the allotment sold out in hours here. I agree with Stefan trying to dissuade people away from LL to keep pricing down but at least my problem isn't buying any more but drinking the stock in the basement!!

jal wrote:Oooooh, this will be very controversial but I have a few:

Lafarge Volnay. Always highly rated, never ready to drink, always needs a few more blanquitos.
Chave Hermitage (white and red). I just don't get it, where's the fruit? The elegance? All I ever got is structure and dusty tannins. I love Chave Cotes du Rhone and St Joseph, though.
Leoville Barton. Everyone here loves it. I have tried, it always feels tight and austere to me. I'm tired of trying yet another promising vintage.
Pontet Canet. See Leoville Barton.

And I understand Nicolas. I also don't get White Bordeaux. The Haut brion blanc in particular is a wine I have tasted 3-4 times and always wondered why...

Not a fan of current Chave, but the older wines made by Gerard are elegance in a bottle.

Leoville Barton (but I usually like Pontet Canet) and Carbonnieux Blanc the last time I tried it.
rthomaspaull

I look at this the other way round. With so many spoofalated, it is more a case of what is left.

To Jacques’ post, I also nominate Chave, not so much that they are not capable of sublime wines, as I have had many, but since Jean Louis took over, they have become quite nasty.

Lynch Bages. Other than 88-89-90, I'm usually left disappointed.
And Grand Puy Lacoste, of course.
Interestingly, Lafon Rochet is one of my overachiever wines.

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:00 pm I look at this the other way round. With so many spoofalated, it is more a case of what is left...

Sadly, this is what I have come to feel as well. So many estates that I once loved have gone rogue, leaving just a dozen or two that I can really trust (and afford).

And more fundamentally, I have (oft-repeated) doubts that Bordeaux made in the last 20 years will in general develop and mature like older vintages have (1990 and older). The jury is still out on 1991-2002, I am much more optimistic for this decade than 2003-present. If Bordeaux doesn't develop that haunting complexity, that silky nuance, that layered personality with 20+ years in the cellar like it used to, it's exalted status is in doubt. Of course, Bordeaux even in the 21st Century is better than virtually all New World wines in their current incarnations, but Bordeaux's systematic shift in style and quality in the last two decades has made me more and more open to red wines from the rest of France, and to a lesser degree, Italy. I love old school wines from Rioja as well, but if anything Parkerization was even more systematic and devastating in its effects in Iberia than Aquitaine.

Interesting, Jim. For the money, there are few wines I like better than Lynch Bages from 1978-1990.

I have had terrific to scintillating bottles of the 78, 80, 82, 83, 85, 86, 88, 89 and 90 Lynch, all in the last 5 years or so. That 86 Lynch that Jacques brought to Denver in July 2018 was epic, and I've had nearly a case of the 83 through the years which never seems to disappoint. The 88 Lynch is arguably one of the wines of the vintage in my experience. And I recall the 89 is well spoken of on various boards as well.

Blanquito, Musigny, there is always hope.

I guess Léoville Las Cases, Montrose, Latour, Ausone, Lafite, Église-Clinet, Lafleur and Petrus did not changed that much post 2000, so they should age gracefully like their 80's conterpart.

For Lynch Bages, it is sharing the same vineyard as... Chateau Croizet-Bages. That is saying it all. You're right Jim, but I think you're too generous for the 1990. But 1982, 1986, 1988 and 1989 are all nice.

Nic

Anything from St. Emilion.

William P wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:38 pm Anything from St. Emilion.

Almost all of them. But I suppose if I chose one, it would be Pavie. Fabulous terroir...

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:01 pm

William P wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:38 pm Anything from St. Emilion.

Almost all of them. But I suppose if I chose one, it would be Pavie. Fabulous terroir...

Mus, I don't drink many Pavie. However, great terroir does not always equate to a great wine.