What is the best 3 year run, and what is the best 5 year run?

[JimHow]

Three: 1988, 1989, 1990.

Five: 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989.

[Michael Malinoski]

Before opening the thread, my mind immediately went to the exact same answers as Jim. One might argue 82, 83, 84, 85, 86. Even with 1960 dragging them way down, I’d also take the brilliance of 59, 60, 61. More recently, could you live with 00, 01, 02, 03, 04?

Michael

[Gerry M.]

Just to stir the pot, in thirty years 2014, 2015 and 2016 may challenge for the best 3 yr run.

[JimHow]

Hey Mike! I was going to say 2014-2015-2016, Gerry, but I am really wondering if 21st century Bordeaux will ever bring the thrill that 1980s Bordeaux has brought to all of us, including that ‘81 Cos that Jacques experienced this week.

[dstgolf]

Agree with Jims trio and then his 5 with the weak point the 87 so I'll justify my six/seven year run giving the 07,17 a weak spot but reasonable.

Three: 2008.2009,2010 or likely 2018,2019,2020
Six: 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010
Seven: prediction..2014,2015,2016,2017,2018,2019,2020

What's with the years ending in 7!! Always coming up weak for decades!!

[JoelD]

Three: 1988, 1989, 1990.

Five: 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989.

I think the 3 is up for debate, but I like these.

For the 5 I almost agree, but that means picking 1985 over 1990, and I don't think I can do that. Some absolutely amazing wines came from 1990 in Bordeaux and all over the world.

And what a dud my birth year was Danny, although thankfully California made some decent wine in 87 so I have some birthday swill to drink

[dstgolf]

Joel,

I'm 57 and talk about a DUD year!! Had a nice port from 57 but I'm not big on port so....

[jckba]

Joel,

I'm 57 and talk about a DUD year!! Had a nice port from 57 but I'm not big on port so....

Madeira!

[JoelD]

Joel,

I'm 57 and talk about a DUD year!! Had a nice port from 57 but I'm not big on port so....

Lets look at the glass half full. How many extra wines of average quality would we buy for our birth years if we were born in just ok vintages. I already use friends and family birth years as excuses to load up. Maybe its a blessing in disguise

On a follow up though, my 6 year window has to be 85 through 90. Now that is quite a lineup. Although I definitely feel that 14-19 will give that a serious run for its money.

[William P]

I agree with Gerry 14, 15, 16. Five years is a tougher question.

[Blanquito]

Top 5 year run: 82, 83, 84, 85, 86 (just edging out 85-90)
Top 3: 88-90

[Musigny 151]

I know this is old fogey country but 1945-1949 works for five year .

[OrlandoRobert]

I know this is old fogey country but 1945-1949 works for five year .

Yea I’m pretty envious that you and Stefan were in your prime, drinking these historic vintages, way back then!

From this young man’s perspective, it has to be 1988, 89 and 90. And more recently, 2014, 15 and 16. While I am not generally a big fan of 15, I think 14 and 16 are excellent, and 15 has some winners.

[Claudius2]

Guys
3 yrs: 88,89,90 probably ahead of 14-16 and 18-20 but who can tell now
5yrs: 86 to 90 despite 87 being average and i will take 90 over 85.

Maybe 2014 to 2018 or 2015 to 2019 will beat the above but time will tell.

[jal]

I put 81-82-83 just ahead of 88-89-90
five years, maybe 96-97-98-99-00. Not sure

[Jay Winton]

I put 81-82-83 just ahead of 88-89-90
five years, maybe 96-97-98-99-00. Not sure

nope, 81 had more weak sisters or just average wines than 88-90. Also I would bet the lesser appellations weren't as good but just conjecture.

[SF Ed]

Without having properly tasted the recent vintages, I would go 88-89-90 for 3 years.

5 years is a lot harder. I like 86-90 a lot, but pulling in 82-86 also works well. I haven't had enough 45-49, but based on the few I've had (all of those vintages except 46), that could be really compelling as well. I guess I'd pick 86-90, but I might change my opinion 5 minutes from now.

[stefan]

59-60-61 deserves respect (60 was little noticed but actually OK), but I go with 88-89-90. For five years I agree with 86-87-88-89-90. 87 while light, is true, and the others are all fine.

[Blanquito]

For 82-86 vs 86-90, I like 82 better than 89 or 90, they both include 86, so it kinda comes to 83/85 vs 88/90. In my experience, I take 83/85 over 88/90 on balance. Of course, the 83/85 are now getting long in the tooth and it’s hard not to hold that against them now even if only subconsciously, but I really love so many wines from both 83 and 85 where’s the 88s never thrilled me and though the highs are very high in 90, I don’t think it was quite as broadly successful as 85.

[jal]

Man, 81 gets no respect! I love 88 but I liked some 81 Bordeaux so much more than their 88 counterparts.

[Blanquito]

Man, 81 gets no respect! I love 88 but I liked some 81 Bordeaux so much more than their 88 counterparts.

Gilman is a big fan of the 81s, especially on the right bank which he says started picking before some major late season rain really got underway.

For my part, I just haven’t had many 81s. The 1981 Pichon Lalande is a lovely wine and the 81 Latour Haut Brion was the WOTN at a big 80’s night at Fabio’s once upon a time.

[Nicklasss]

Best 3 years : i'm hesitating between 1947-1948-1949 or 1988-1989-1990 or 2014-2015-2016.

Best 5 years run : i'm hesitating between 2014-2015-2016-2017-2018 or 2015-2016-2017-2018-2019. It will depends 2014 vs 2019.

Nic

[JoelD]

For 82-86 vs 86-90, I like 82 better than 89 or 90, they both include 86, so it kinda comes to 83/85 vs 88/90. In my experience, I take 83/85 over 88/90 on balance. Of course, the 83/85 are now getting long in the tooth and it’s hard not to hold that against them now even if only subconsciously, but I really love so many wines from both 83 and 85 where’s the 88s never thrilled me and though the highs are very high in 90, I don’t think it was quite as broadly successful as 85.

This is an interesting breakdown, Patrick. So if ranking the vintages between 82 and 90, it sounds like:
1) 82
2) 89

and then you make the rest of your argument. for me 89/90 are 2 and 3 in some order. Then probably 85 and 86 in some order. then 83 and 88 in some order (although I haven't tasted enough of either of these yet)

Does 85 belong in your top 3 of these 9 vintages? If so then I think it's clear. If not, I think its tough to pick your 5.

**Disclaimer** For the record, this literally might be the most subjective argument that I have ever tried to make objective

[Claudius2]

Jacques
81 gets plenty of respect here!!
I wrote on another thread that I have fond memories of both 79 and 81.
However 88-90 at least for now gets my vote but that is subject to change.
My rationale is more how even the vintage is rather than peaks.
From that perspective 88 to 90 are very good across Bordeaux and also Chateaux.

I wonder if Francois would say that the best three or five were from the 1770’s....

[Blanquito]

Nice inferences, Joel.

Here’s my breakdown. First, I’d rank the vintages for these two five year runs like this: 82 > 85 > 86 = 83 > 84; 89 > 90 > 86 > 88 > 87.

Then head to head:
82 > 89
85 = 90
86 = 86
83 > 88
84 vs 87 (nobody cares, but 87 is probably better regarded overall)

By my head to head breakdown, 82-86 prevails with 2 wins, no loses and 2 ties.

I imagine the most contentious of my head to head rankings is 85 = 90 (and that’s a much longer post to unpack my reasons for making it a tie), but even if you give that round to 90, 82-86 still wins 2,1, and 1.

[JoelD]

Nice inferences, Joel.

Here’s my breakdown. First, I’d rank the vintages for these two five year runs like this: 82 > 85 > 86 = 83 > 84; 89 > 90 > 86 > 88 > 87.

Then head to head:
82 > 89
85 = 90
86 = 86
83 > 88
84 vs 87 (nobody cares, but 87 is probably better regarded overall)

By my head to head breakdown, 82-86 prevails with 2 wins, no loses and 2 ties.

I imagine the most contentious of my head to head rankings is 85 = 90 (and that’s a much longer post to unpack my reasons for making it a tie), but even if you give that round to 90, 82-86 still wins 2,1, and 1.

That is literally about as tight as it gets. I would do the math more of a ranking system, reverse point totals for placement or something of that nature. But if 85=90 for you then that definitely seals it. Sounds like I need to try some more 85's and 83's. Starting with some 85 Beychevelle. Hoping my half bottles aren't dead to the world Also have an 83 VCC to try that should be fun.

For a 6 year stretch, would you choose 85-90 or maybe 81-86? The former is the clear one for me, but I know a lot of you all love 81's. Which I guess to be fair, I'm not sure if I have ever tried one.

[tim]

No one brought this up, but I am a fan of 94-95-96. 94 is often underrated.

Is it the best 3 year run? Not sure, but it should certainly be a contender.

[Nicklasss]

By the way, seems to me that most of you aren't including Sauternes/Barsac in their assessment of best 3 or 5 years run. I think it is important to consider sweet wines as part of Bordeaux reputation as well, so a great Bordeaux vintage is with great red and sweet wines. For me, this is why it is hard to have a 3 or 5 years run with only vintages from the 80's, or a vintage like 1994 for example.

For Bordeaux dry white wines, they aren't my cup of tea, but I guess could be considered too.

If talking only about red wines, I might revise my view but i guess i would stay almost the same.

Nic

[stefan]

Nic, for Sauternes the best three year run for me is 88-89-90.

[Nicklasss]

Stefan, knowing you, i thought you would have had a soft spot for 1947-1948-1949 for Sauternes. But I agree that 1988-1989-1990 are impressive vintages for Sauternes. And both are great for reds too.

Nic

[JoelD]

By the way, seems to me that most of you aren't including Sauternes/Barsac in their assessment of best 3 or 5 years run. I think it is important to consider sweet wines as part of Bordeaux reputation as well, so a great Bordeaux vintage is with great red and sweet wines. For me, this is why it is hard to have a 3 or 5 years run with only vintages from the 80's, or a vintage like 1994 for example.

For Bordeaux dry white wines, they aren't my cup of tea, but I guess could be considered too.

If talking only about red wines, I might revise my view but i guess i would stay almost the same.

Nic

Sauternes can sometimes be the best in average years for red Bordeaux though right? same with white bordeaux. I think they almost need to be looked at separately

[stefan]

Nic, I wish I had enough experience with 1947-1948-1949 to compare!

[JimHow]

I picked 85 in my five year run instead of 90 because, as great as 90 is, it’s like the beginning of the end of the greatness we saw in the 80s, wines like Gruaud and Lynch being good examples, among others, in my mind.

[DavidG]

Well I was originally in the 1981-1982-1983 camp with Jacques for best 3. But I’ve reconsidered and will cast my vote for 1988-1989-1990. Very close. Unless you consider Sauternes/Barsac, which puts 1988-1989-1990 clearly in the lead.

Best 5 is more complicated but I’ll go with 1986-1990.

Both 1986-1990 and 1982-1986 had only 1 meh vintage (1984 and 1987), so that part's a tie. Even if the 1987 "luncheon clarets" may have been better than 1984, neither was good enough for me to care. Luncheon-smuncheon - humbug.

Next pair in ascending order, 1988 over 1983, both very good-excellent. Possible bias here as 1988 was our wedding year.

Then 1986 = 1986 (I loved these. More than 1985. I'm a tannin pig, and patient).

Then 1990 over 1985 by a long shot. It’s a style preference thing.

Then 1982 over 1989, but not by a huge margin.

1986-1990 has 2 wins, 1 loss, and 2 ties compared to 1982-1986. And if you count Sauternes, the royal triumvirate of 1988-1990 widens the lead further.

[Nicklasss]

By the way, seems to me that most of you aren't including Sauternes/Barsac in their assessment of best 3 or 5 years run. I think it is important to consider sweet wines as part of Bordeaux reputation as well, so a great Bordeaux vintage is with great red and sweet wines. For me, this is why it is hard to have a 3 or 5 years run with only vintages from the 80's, or a vintage like 1994 for example.

For Bordeaux dry white wines, they aren't my cup of tea, but I guess could be considered too.

If talking only about red wines, I might revise my view but i guess i would stay almost the same.

Nic

Sauternes can sometimes be the best in average years for red Bordeaux though right? same with white bordeaux. I think they almost need to be looked at separately

Yes and no. 1988-1989-1990 being great for red and sweet wines. As are 1947-1948-1949, or 2014-2015-2016.

[Racer Chris]

'14, '15, '16
For me without a doubt

[Blanquito]

Interesting, David. Palate preferences and all that. While l love 1990 Bordeaux, I strongly prefer many of my personal favorite chateau in 85 > 90.

Off the top of my head, here are some important wines (to me) where I prefer the 85 to 90:
Beychevelle
Canon
Magdelaine
Pichon Lalande
La Lagune
Cantemerle
Gruaud Larose
Talbot
Branaire Ducru
l’Arrosee
Meyney
Rausan Segla
Brane Cantenac
La Dominique

But if the first growths are the best metric, 90 wins out easily over 85. And I think over all 90 was better in Pauillac and Pomerol.

[JimHow]

Has there been any discussion on any of the other sites about what the heck happened with Pichon Lalande, if anything, in 1990?

[AKR]

It's always been a mystery. Someone mentioned on WB recently some sky high sale of 90 PL.

[rthomaspaull]

You have been given many good answers, but going by the Wine Advocate Vintage Ratings, if 2018 gets rated close to the Wine Spectator's 96, I would say
2014-2016 and 2014-2018 for the left bank reds (particularly Pauillac etc. and Pessac-Leognan). rthomaspaull