Saint Emilion style

[Antoine]

St Emilion has always been a minefield: Variety of terroir, variety of producer vinification (refined, body builded), incomprehensible (or worse) classification... There was a discussion on another forum which I find intersting
We had some help from Comte who is zillions time more knowledgeable than I am... I would like to get your input on an initial input on these wines (not ranked by best but by style. I have created categories whose name you may also wish to refine:
- Elegant, refined
- Sensual and more body substance
- With concentration
- Robust and parkerised
- Power house (whether terroir or body building)
Of course, I may have put too many categories but this can easily be reduced. My initial input
- Elegant, refined: Canon, Figeac
- Sensual and more body substance: Clos de l'Oratoire (2000 although the 2005 may qualify as more concentrated...)
- With concentration: Clos Fourtet
- Robust and parkerised:
- Power house (whether terroir or body building): Pavie
Can't say about Ausone and Cheval Blanc (although Cheval Blanc at Bibendum tastings over a decade ago would fit in cat 2 or 3).

Over to the experts...

[greatbxfreak]

Corbin and Tertre Roteboeuf??

[Antoine]

Thanks Izak! No idea as I have not had them and they may even vary with time depending on producer/consultant.... You may tell us how you see them... Maybe this categorisation does not make sense after all.

[JimHow]

Hmmm, great project, Antoine, I gotta think about this for a bit.
This is a project for the GBFs, Jeff Leves, and Musigny-151s of the world.
Corbin is one of my favorite St. Emilions, but in which of Antoine's categories do we place it?

[OrlandoRobert]

Not an expert here, just a rank amateur, but St Em to me is a total minefield, now largely ruined by the critics and consultants that have put their imprimatur on this once-heralded appellation, turning so many classic estates into international/universal wines that appeal to more modern, more California-inflected palates.

Figeac and Canon are perfect examples. Why in the world would such classic Chateau like these two, with a wide following among Bordeaux aficionados, flip to modernist consultants and winemakers? Sure Jeffois will swoop in here and say they are making the best wines they have ever made, but is that really true? It’s not. It’s opinion. Granted, just like mine, but both, just rank opinion. I’d take prior vintages of these two wines over current vintages any day of the week. You really cannot put these two wines in the elegant and refined category anymore.

Sadly, not sure what Chateau in St Em still fall into that category. Up through the 2011 vintage, I would say Chateau Magdelaine, but that estate has been merged into the modern winery, Chateau Belair-Monage. Right now I own more Magdelaine than any other right bank wine and have been buying as many cases of back vintages as I can find, most recently, 2000, 05 and 11. Been buying 1998 as well, but that Musigny guy usually gets the nut first!

I had the 2015 Chateau Ausone a few weeks ago with Bobby Goulet. Damn that’s an amazing wine, hitting all my hedonistic needs. I’d put it in the sensual and powerful category. And unaffordable. Consumed side by side with a 2017 Le Pin. You can make the case that Ausone is better in this vintage pairing.

I’m not sure how to classify Tertre Rotobeauf - it’s a wine onto itself - but recently had a 1999 that was amazing. Just bought some 2008 and 2014 as well.

Chateau Corbin is now glossy and modern to me. I bought some 2016 on the BWE praise but cannot say it inspired me to buy more. Well made, tasty, but glossy.

Chateau Corbin-Michotte is a major winner to me. Pretty old school. Hard to find.

I have written off most everything else. Good thing that Pomerol is firing on all cylinders. I’ve been buying tons. It really has become my favorite appellation in Bordeaux.

[JimHow]

Amen, my brother, although I wonder if GBF and Musigny-151 agree with you on Corbin.

[Blanquito]

St Emilion is dead to me. Orlando’s write up captures it perfectly. I get it that these modernized wines appeal to some palates, but I really cannot understand people like Jeff who have loved bordeaux for decades — and so by definition “got” the appeal of these wines pre-consultant — yet utterly embrace what these wines have become. They taste nothing like the wines that first made us fall in love with this region.

[OrlandoRobert]

St Emilion is dead to me. Orlando’s write up captures it perfectly. I get it that these modernized wines appeal to some palates, but I really cannot understand people like Jeff who have loved bordeaux for decades — and so by definition “got” the appeal of these wines pre-consultant — yet utterly embrace what these wines have become. They taste nothing like the wines that first made us fall in love with this region.

Nailed it.

St Em was once my most heavily-represented appellation. Now I practically buy nothing from there.

And yes, Bordeaux remains my largest wine purchases year to year. I remain enamored by this region, just gotta be more selective and stay on top of the changing tides. Jeff’s website is great in that regard, keeps his material quite current.

[Blanquito]

Yes, Jeff’s site is an amazing resource and as I’ve said before, I find his notes usually quite clear about the style of a wine. And of course, Jeff is not alone in his preference for these wines.

[Claudius2]

Guys
When I think back to the 70’s wines from St Emilion were a different animal entirely.
The better wines were rich and spicy with red fruits and medium body but the less expensive wines were often weedy and thin showing slightly green characters and little structure. Yet the best wines were delicious with bright red fruits. They did not have the power of the best Medoc wines but were excellent in their own way. I hunted wines like Figeac, Magdeleine, Canon, Beausejour and Pavie at auctions back in Australia but these days I am buying less expensive wines. Last time I bought Cheval Blanc was vintage 1995. Oh well.

I think on this Board the wines of St Emilion are sometimes seen as too modern but there really is a lot of styles. Since the 80’s there has been more focus on ripeness and density and sometimes that means too much alcohol and sweetness yet I have to say that the 70’s style was often rather dull.

I now have quite a lot of St Emilions from 2009, 2010, 2016 and (on EP) 2019 and I’m working my way thru the last few 2006’s which have generally been pretty good. If there is one criticism I have it is the usage of more new oak as Merlot and Cab Franc to my palate don’t handle it as easily as CS, but better to have vanilla and spice than the overly weedy characters I recall some decades ago.

In the meantime I must pull out the last few 06’s in the wine fridge.

I just did a South African wine tasting and tried one wine that was supposed to be a St Emilion style (roughly equal parts Merlot and CF) and it was a very odd wine. Also tried a red made from a blend of Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, Syrah, Pinot Noir, Merlot, Mourvèdre, Barbera and a few others. Weirdest wine I have had for a while but at least there was no Pinotage.

[OrlandoRobert]

Kind of funny, as I’m sitting here criticizing the modern direction of St. Emilion, This morning I bought a case of 2018 La Gaffeliere. Not a wine that I would ordinarily buy, but the wine club at my country club always has tremendous offerings, this one at $41 per bottle. I have no earthly idea how they achieved that price, but I snatched up a case as a flyer. At the very least, I know my family and friends will like this one.

[Claudius2]

Robert
That is a very good price for La Gaffeliere.
Over here it would be at least twice that even allowing for the exchange rate difference.

[AKR]

Kind of funny, as I’m sitting here criticizing the modern direction of St. Emilion, This morning I bought a case of 2018 La Gaffeliere. Not a wine that I would ordinarily buy, but the wine club at my country club always has tremendous offerings, this one at $41 per bottle. I have no earthly idea how they achieved that price, but I snatched up a case as a flyer. At the very least, I know my family and friends will like this one.

wow.

I agree Corbin Michotte is hard to find. It's solid, but a milder style.

I drink a lot of St Emilion - of all styles - and think some of the complaints are overwrought.

Basically the whole world of 89 pt wines, that have their own customer bases in Europe, and don't get here much, are a hunting ground for those who want the more traditional style. (C-M mentioned above is an example, being popular in Switzerland but not here)

There's also a big difference between enjoying some of these in small pours in a comparative panel of 20 wines, vs. enjoying a whole bottle over a couple of days. My experience now is much more the latter, rather than the former which was easier to do when I was younger, and had time to do more with a local tasting group.

I feel like I need to drone on more in a longer post, when I'm not 'on duty'

[AKR]

Kind of funny, as I’m sitting here criticizing the modern direction of St. Emilion, This morning I bought a case of 2018 La Gaffeliere. Not a wine that I would ordinarily buy, but the wine club at my country club always has tremendous offerings, this one at $41 per bottle. I have no earthly idea how they achieved that price, but I snatched up a case as a flyer. At the very least, I know my family and friends will like this one.

wow.

I agree Corbin Michotte is hard to find. It's solid, but a milder style.

I drink a lot of St Emilion - of all styles - and think some of the complaints are overwrought.

Basically the whole world of 89 pt wines, that have their own customer bases in Europe, and don't get here much, are a hunting ground for those who want the more traditional style. (C-M mentioned above is an example, being popular in Switzerland but not here). The prices to me will also look a little weird - $35 for a no name wine, with no reviews.

There's also a big difference between enjoying some of these in small pours in a comparative panel of 20 wines, vs. enjoying a whole bottle over a couple of days. My experience now is much more the latter, rather than the former which was easier to do when I was younger, and had time to do more with a local tasting group.

I feel like I need to drone on more in a longer post, when I'm not 'on duty'

[Comte Flaneur]

Pure unadulterated St-Emilion is one of life’s great joys.

When you go to the town itself it is overly quaint and full of tourists but on the town square in a touristy shop the quintessence of St-Emilion wine, a few years ago, the modest 2004 Couvent Des Jacobins made by nuns. No sexual immorality or moral turpitude in this wine. I should have bought more than the three bottles at €35.

There are many biblical analogies one could make about the fate of St-Emilion.Very few estates have been untouched by ‘modernism’ and the hierarchy is apparently up for grabs next year so hopefully by long position in Ch Figeac 2016 will pay dividends.

I don’t have any experience of recent vintages of Ausone but to me the undisputed star of St-Emilion is Cheval Blanc, which is not overtly modern. Michel Rolland has been consulting at Ausone for a long time and now consults at Figeac. Tertre Roteboeuf is always a joy but very expensive these days, and Trolong Mondot is returning from the very dark side. Magdelaine and Belair are forever gone. Canon has modernised, but maybe for the better?

[OrlandoRobert]

Pure unadulterated St-Emilion is one of life’s great joys.

When you go to the town itself it is overly quaint and full of tourists but on the town square in a touristy shop the quintessence of St-Emilion wine, a few years ago, the modest 2004 Couvent Des Jacobins made by nuns. No sexual immorality or moral turpitude in this wine. I should have bought more than the three bottles at €35.

There are many biblical analogies one could make about the fate of St-Emilion.Very few estates have been untouched by ‘modernism’ and the hierarchy is apparently up for grabs next year so hopefully by long position in Ch Figeac 2016 will pay dividends.

I don’t have any experience of recent vintages of Ausone but to me the undisputed star of St-Emilion is Cheval Blanc, which is not overtly modern. Michel Rolland has been consulting at Ausone for a long time and now consults at Figeac. Tertre Roteboeuf is always a joy but very expensive these days, and Trolong Mondot is returning from the very dark side. Magdelaine and Belair are forever gone. Canon has modernised, but maybe for the better?

Per Leve, Rolland was only used for blending, and Ausone ended the relationship in 2013.

[AKR]

What's funny was that I was going to actually mention Couvent des Jacobins, Clos de Jacobins etc.

They are hard to find normally here, but it looks like some 2019 snuck in.

80's those came over a little, and I had a few.

[greatbxfreak]

Corbin is not modern-styled wine. It's refined and elegant. Maybe a bit polished but a great value for money. I'm waiting for the sample of Corbin 2020 and it should arrive next week.

In the 2020 vintage, she didn't use an external consultant. She is a fully qualified oenologist herself. She did some changes in this vintage. Here's part of Andrew Black Premiere Presse interview with her. Incredibly interesting to hear this very intelligent winemaker explain things:

AB Did the fact that you didn’t have a vintage to produce in 2017 help you reassess the way
you worked?
Anabelle Bardinet Yes, I’m absolutely convinced of that. It was a mini-revolution for me. Just
imagine, with no production of 2017, I didn’t have the second-fill barrels available the following
year for the 2018. There was no way I was going to age the 2018 in 100% new barrels. I therefore
bought new barrels in the usual proportion for the 2018, and the rest of the wine I just aged
differently, either in vat or in other recipients. I called these batches the “Réserve Fruit”, because
of their special fruity character. The results were a revelation for me.
AB You would never have dreamt of ageing your 2018 in this way, if you’d had a 2017 crop.
What exactly did you discover that made the experience a revelation?
Anabelle Bardinet The reality of my grapes, of my vines, without any influence from the
barrel. Corbin in its purest state.

AB So what happened in 2019, when you had access to the used barrels of 2018? Did you go
back to the default strategy of new and second-fill barrels?
Anabelle Bardinet No, I wanted to explore further the possibilities of ageing in other
materials, in order to preserve the character of this “Réserve Fruit”. That’s when I discovered the
“Wineglobe” glass jars.
AB How do you select the lots to be aged in glass?
Anabelle Bardinet They are not particular plots. They represent the whole range. However, I
was particularly keen to age our Cabernet Franc in glass and bring out its refined, delicate fruit and
floral expression, which can all too often be overpowered by new oak. Even in second-fill barrels it
can be a little dulled.
AB How many wineglobes do you now have?
Anabelle Bardinet Eighteen. That’s the equivalent of 18 barriques. So, for the 2020 vintage,
we ran off a part of each plot into separate wineglobes, in order to know the reality of each
terroir. It’s a very instructive exercise, which enables me to gain a greater vision of where I can go
with Corbin and how I see the wine.
AB So the 2020 vintage is ageing in new barrels, in vat, and in glass?
Anabelle Bardinet Exactly.
AB That’s amazing. I bet that 7 or 8 years ago you never imagined doing that!
Anabelle Bardinet True. And I’ve never had such pleasure making Corbin as I’ve had to making
the 2020 vintage.
AB You’ve come a long way since the spring of 2017!
Anabelle Bardinet The frost, and lockdown, which was another opportunity to reflect on
many things, have allowed me to re-set and move in an exciting new direction.
AB You have traditionally worked with consultants. Who was behind this new strategy?
Anabelle Bardinet Only me. Today, I work alone -without consultants.
AB With this new vision, where do you see Corbin going?
Anabelle Bardinet I see future Corbin vintages like 2020. That’s the benchmark now. A wine
with great ageing potential but fresh and approachable in its youth.
AB Can you describe the profile of Corbin 2020 more specifically?
Anabelle Bardinet It has great purity. It’s a wine that’s full of life and energy. It also has
volume and density on the palate with a really good length of flavour and a touch of minerality in
the finish. Tasting it is quite an emotional experience for me.
AB That density is what stands out in this vintage...
Anabelle Bardinet That comes from the tannins, which are very fine and silky.
AB What feedback have you had about your 2019 vintage? Has it all been positive?
Anabelle Bardinet So much has changed over the last years. The world, the market, people’s
tastes, and also wine styles. I’ve had great feedback, especially from the younger generation, from
professionals such as négociants and sommeliers, as well as consumers that have come to taste it.
AB That new approachability must be key...
Anabelle Bardinet Not everyone has the desire to wait years and years for wines to be ready
to drink. My Corbin 2020 offers great ageing potential, because of its structure and balance, but
it’s also going to be delicious to drink almost immediately.

[JimHow]

Great stuff, GBF, I love OB’s commitment to the traditional taste but I agree with you, I don’t find Corbin modernized. 2016 may be richer than her usual efforts but that is more a function of the vintage. Can’t wait to get a case each of her 2018 and 2019, and now, apparently, the 2020!

[greatbxfreak]

Modern - Pavie Macquin and Larcis Ducasse

Back to the roots - Angelus! Hubert de Bouard's daughter, Stephanie, has transformed the style from over-extracted, overripe, and overoaked wine to elegant, sophisticated, fruit-driven, and terroir-driven wine. As I use to say, "woman touch".

She started to change the style in 2015 (her first vintage), but 2020 is her best vintage yet.

Sensual, sublime, and very special with its own style - Tertre Roteboeuf. 2020 is a stunner.

[OrlandoRobert]

Sensual, sublime, and very special with its own style - Tertre Roteboeuf. 2020 is a stunner.

Damnit, I’m too old to be buying 2020!!!!

Almost pulled a 2008 out of my fridge today, yanked a 2001 Leoville Barton instead.

[JimHow]

Well done, OB, in the spirit of Antoine's thread I have pulled a 2012 Chateau Canon.

[JimHow]

Sipping on the 2012 Canon... So they say this wine is interesting these days, huh? Hmmm... Interesting.

[JimHow]

I sent in my application to practice before the United States Supreme Court today, OB, I thought it would merit something at least a little special. If you are partial to the right bank, you might like this wine. I was going to pick my lone bottle of 2012 GPL, I'm guessing this is probably better.... There must have been quite an improvement between 2012 and 2015 if Canon went from this to those two cases of the '15 that I'm afraid to open, depending on the real estate market, Jesus, my two houses have like tripled in value. Cash is trash.

[OrlandoRobert]

Very cool, Jimbo!

My law partner just argued before the Supremes. Said there is nothing else like it in law. Hope you get there my friend! We all come up and watch and then party like rock stars. I’ve been before federal appellate courts, those are fun too!

[Blanquito]

Pure unadulterated St-Emilion is one of life’s great joys.

When you go to the town itself it is overly quaint and full of tourists but on the town square in a touristy shop the quintessence of St-Emilion wine, a few years ago, the modest 2004 Couvent Des Jacobins made by nuns. No sexual immorality or moral turpitude in this wine. I should have bought more than the three bottles at €35.

There are many biblical analogies one could make about the fate of St-Emilion.Very few estates have been untouched by ‘modernism’ and the hierarchy is apparently up for grabs next year so hopefully by long position in Ch Figeac 2016 will pay dividends.

I don’t have any experience of recent vintages of Ausone but to me the undisputed star of St-Emilion is Cheval Blanc, which is not overtly modern. Michel Rolland has been consulting at Ausone for a long time and now consults at Figeac. Tertre Roteboeuf is always a joy but very expensive these days, and Trolong Mondot is returning from the very dark side. Magdelaine and Belair are forever gone. Canon has modernised, but maybe for the better?

I’ve only had Cheval Blanc 3 times and never anything from this century but it has always been a profound experience. That 82 in London was absurdly good and incredibly young.

Your praise for Couvent des Jacobins got me curious and with some checking I see it is available in the States for reasonable pricing. I did note that the 2019 received critical praise (see below) however, with descriptors that make me wonder if it’s gone rogue in recent years?

Jeb Dunnuck
Showing a darker, black raspberry, espresso, cassis, and chocolaty bouquet, the 2019 Couvent Des Jacobins is medium to full-bodied and has plenty of background oak, good mid-palate depth, and integrated acidity. It's a rich, ripe wine that stays in the elegant, pure style of the vintage.
Barrel Sample: 91-93

Robert Parker's Wine Advocate
The 2019 Couvent des Jacobins is a blend of 85% Merlot, 10% Cabernet Franc and 5% Petit Verdot. Yields this year were 38 hectoliters per hectare. The alcohol is 14.5% and the pH is 3.76. It is being aged in French oak barrels (225 and 500 liter), 25% new, for around 12 months. Deep garnet-purple in color, the nose offers up scents of stewed plums, black cherry preserves and fruitcake with touches of potpourris, hoisin, espresso and star anise. The full-bodied palate packs in the spicy black fruit with a chewy texture and plenty of freshness, finishing on a spicy note.
Barrel Sample: 90-92

[Comte Flaneur]

Pure unadulterated St-Emilion is one of life’s great joys.

When you go to the town itself it is overly quaint and full of tourists but on the town square in a touristy shop the quintessence of St-Emilion wine, a few years ago, the modest 2004 Couvent Des Jacobins made by nuns. No sexual immorality or moral turpitude in this wine. I should have bought more than the three bottles at €35.

There are many biblical analogies one could make about the fate of St-Emilion.Very few estates have been untouched by ‘modernism’ and the hierarchy is apparently up for grabs next year so hopefully by long position in Ch Figeac 2016 will pay dividends.

I don’t have any experience of recent vintages of Ausone but to me the undisputed star of St-Emilion is Cheval Blanc, which is not overtly modern. Michel Rolland has been consulting at Ausone for a long time and now consults at Figeac. Tertre Roteboeuf is always a joy but very expensive these days, and Trolong Mondot is returning from the very dark side. Magdelaine and Belair are forever gone. Canon has modernised, but maybe for the better?

Per Leve, Rolland was only used for blending, and Ausone ended the relationship in 2013.

Good information to know Robert the stars are aligning to pick up some 2020

[AlexR]

Hi,

It's true that there are different styles of Saint-Emilion, the same as in other regions.
Let's not overlook terroir in all this. The soil in the Graves de Saint-Emilion, the limestone plateau, the Côtes, and the Pied de Côtes is all markedly different. I only mention this because the wines' profile depends as much, if not more, on markedly different terroirs as it does on viticultural and winemaking practices.

I notice from what is already a fairly long thread that classified growth châteaux are practically the only ones cited...

I will be going to the Portes Ouvertes in Saint-Emilion on Saturday.
https://www.portesouvertesenmedoc.com/w ... IPANTS.pdf
I usually manage to fit in a dozen estates.
Eight grand cru classé estates are open, but these are not my priority. I'm more interested in the lesser known estates the "finds" that offer value for money. If I am as well-organized as I hope to be, I'll post a report.
I've done the Portes Ouvertes in Pessac Léognan with Nic and Comte Flaneur, the one in the Côtes de Bourg with Tim Mc Craken and the one in Graves de Vayres (now *there's* an esoteric appellation!) with Izak Litwar. These are wonderful occasoins to get to know Bordeaux better.

It is only human nature to want to define and categorize things. If this helps us to understand a complex reality better, why not?

Best regards,
Alex R.

[Comte Flaneur]

Pure unadulterated St-Emilion is one of life’s great joys.

When you go to the town itself it is overly quaint and full of tourists but on the town square in a touristy shop the quintessence of St-Emilion wine, a few years ago, the modest 2004 Couvent Des Jacobins made by nuns. No sexual immorality or moral turpitude in this wine. I should have bought more than the three bottles at €35.

There are many biblical analogies one could make about the fate of St-Emilion.Very few estates have been untouched by ‘modernism’ and the hierarchy is apparently up for grabs next year so hopefully by long position in Ch Figeac 2016 will pay dividends.

I don’t have any experience of recent vintages of Ausone but to me the undisputed star of St-Emilion is Cheval Blanc, which is not overtly modern. Michel Rolland has been consulting at Ausone for a long time and now consults at Figeac. Tertre Roteboeuf is always a joy but very expensive these days, and Trolong Mondot is returning from the very dark side. Magdelaine and Belair are forever gone. Canon has modernised, but maybe for the better?

I’ve only had Cheval Blanc 3 times and never anything from this century but it has always been a profound experience. That 82 in London was absurdly good and incredibly young.

Your praise for Couvent des Jacobins got me curious and with some checking I see it is available in the States for reasonable pricing. I did note that the 2019 received critical praise (see below) however, with descriptors that make me wonder if it’s gone rogue in recent years?

Jeb Dunnuck
Showing a darker, black raspberry, espresso, cassis, and chocolaty bouquet, the 2019 Couvent Des Jacobins is medium to full-bodied and has plenty of background oak, good mid-palate depth, and integrated acidity. It's a rich, ripe wine that stays in the elegant, pure style of the vintage.
Barrel Sample: 91-93

Robert Parker's Wine Advocate
The 2019 Couvent des Jacobins is a blend of 85% Merlot, 10% Cabernet Franc and 5% Petit Verdot. Yields this year were 38 hectoliters per hectare. The alcohol is 14.5% and the pH is 3.76. It is being aged in French oak barrels (225 and 500 liter), 25% new, for around 12 months. Deep garnet-purple in color, the nose offers up scents of stewed plums, black cherry preserves and fruitcake with touches of potpourris, hoisin, espresso and star anise. The full-bodied palate packs in the spicy black fruit with a chewy texture and plenty of freshness, finishing on a spicy note.
Barrel Sample: 90-92

Yes sadly I think this estate has gone rogue and went over to the dark side embracing moral turpitude