Building a vertical

[Dionysus]

Hi Everyone,

First time poster but long time lurker. Congrats on building a fantastic community - have trawled through many many threads and I must say the knowledge here is astounding. Have laughed out loud reading some, smiled reading through most others, and even felt immense sadness reading some posts (DavidG's "Downsizing" post almost brought a tear to my eye). Such a range of emotion, a perfect description for drinking Bordeaux I suspect!!

I am reasonably new to Bordeaux, but have been building a very modest collection over the past few years. While I'm late to the game, I'm on the right side of 40 so have some time on my side (I hope).

One thing I am considering is building a vertical of one chateaux, for a run of 10-15 years. Do you have any advise to share on with me before I embark on this endeavour? I'm sure some of the folk here have verticals so I would be grateful if you could please share your thoughts and experiences.

When deciding on a chateaux, was it purely a matter of personal taste? If it is, that's a problem for me as I seem to have an affinity for a wide range of grapes and styles. I'll probably go for something more classical as by the time I get to drinking them, my palate may have developed some what. I haven't been able to lock down my taste preference...not sure if's that's good or bad, but it sure is expensive!!!

It may be that this topic has been covered previously, so if it has, apologies, but I would be grateful if you could please point me in the right direction.

Thanks and looking forward to being a more regular contributor.
Conor

[JimHow]

Welcome Conor, and thanks for your thoughtful post.
I'm sure the group will have some worthwhile suggestions.
Wines like Calon Segur, Cantemerle, Giscours, have been favorites of mine in recent years, as well as Corbin, Tour Saint Christophe, and others. Quality, ageability, and generally decently priced.

[Racer Chris]

I'm building a vertical of Chateau Talbot extending unbroken from 2009.

[jckba]

To be able to compare and contrast a wine across a bunch of vintages is certainly a fun undertaking and can often yield surprising conclusions especially when done blind but when it comes to picking which wines you should consider, that is something that is highly subjective. As such, I would tell you to pick a Bdx estate that you (1) currently like (2) would expect to improve with age and (3) can easily afford and to go for it. And am interested to hear about which wine you decide upon and why.

[jckba]

I'm building a vertical of Chateau Talbot extending unbroken from 2009.

I was wondering who bought that sole btl of 2013 off the shelves of the Total Wine in West Hartford

[JimHow]

I remember we had an epic vertical of Lynch Bages in NYC back in April 2004.
Who here was there?
I think Musigny and Arv, perhaps Jacques?

[jal]

I was there, I brought the '88

[Claret]

My philosophy in verticals is avoid the bad or really lesser vintages.

[jal]

My first vertical was in 1994, a 12 year retrospective of Grand Puy Lacoste. That probably was the beginning of my hate affair with the estate

[AKR]

I remember we had an epic vertical of Lynch Bages in NYC back in April 2004.
Who here was there?
I think Musigny and Arv, perhaps Jacques?

That was a good time. Some older 60's versions were there, and it seemed like those were more iffy.

One nice thing about modern internet auctions is that sometimes entire single bottle verticals can pop up, and that's a clean way for a group to collectively source an evening all in one go. Pair that with a private room and its a good time!

Personally I think it makes more sense to assemble verticals in estates that tend to be hard to find after release. Ch. Musar might be an example of one, or Mas de Daumas Gassac. And although not Bordeaux, they are blends that might be of interest to enthusiasts.

[JimHow]

SF Ed was there as well, we drove from Boston to NYC.

[Dionysus]

Welcome Conor, and thanks for your thoughtful post.
I'm sure the group will have some worthwhile suggestions.
Wines like Calon Segur, Cantemerle, Giscours, have been favorites of mine in recent years, as well as Corbin, Tour Saint Christophe, and others. Quality, ageability, and generally decently priced.

Thanks for the welcome and suggestions Jim, appreciated.

I must admit that most of those mentioned haven't passed my lips as of yet, YET being the key word there. I've tried some Calon and Giscours, in small quantities, both of which I enjoy quite a lot. I know there has been a lot of love for Corbin and TSC among the community, so must get my hands on some bottles.

[Dionysus]

My philosophy in verticals is avoid the bad or really lesser vintages.

Hi Glenn - thanks for the feedback.

I had assumed for true verticals that the run should be unbroken, regardless of vintage quality - possibly not a golden rule, and for sure would be difficult to part with hard earned cash for a below average vintage.

Chris, I presume you have the 13 Talbot in your vertical?

Conor

[Racer Chris]

Yes, see the comment above by jckba.

[Dionysus]

Personally I think it makes more sense to assemble verticals in estates that tend to be hard to find after release. Ch. Musar might be an example of one, or Mas de Daumas Gassac. And although not Bordeaux, they are blends that might be of interest to enthusiasts.

That's a great suggestion Arv, and makes a lot of sense.

Are there any Bordeaux estates that fit that mould? i.e. hard to find after release?
There might be a few from the Right bank for sure as many estates are quite small (I'm thinking Bellevue Mondotte, l'Eglise-Clinet, Trotanoy), but I'm struggling to think of something suitable on the Left Bank. Maybe Mission Haut-Brion?

The ask would certainly be a lot easier if Burgundy!!

[SF Ed]

I would separate out building a vertical from experiencing a vertical. I get huge value from knowing an estate in detail. I don't care about having the wines in my cellar.

Let's take the example of Lynch Bages referenced above (understanding that it is now too expensive for most mortals to collect). I've never had a vertical of it in my cellar - probably no more than 5 vintages at a time. But I have had at least 30 different vintages in my life and I'd like to think I know it pretty well.

Some of those came from my own cellar. I bought a few post-release. But the vast majority came from other people's cellars through the years, like at the 2004 BWE event referenced above.

I don't get any satisfaction from owning bottles with the same labels and different numbers just for having them. I get a lot of satisfaction from understanding a particular wine over a long period of time and understanding different vintages.

I have a 3L 2000 Lynch Bages with BWE's name on it just waiting for the right gathering. Maybe at BWE 2025. That's what I like to collect wine for.

SF Ed

[Dionysus]

I would separate out building a vertical from experiencing a vertical. I get huge value from knowing an estate in detail. I don't care about having the wines in my cellar.

Let's take the example of Lynch Bages referenced above (understanding that it is now too expensive for most mortals to collect). I've never had a vertical of it in my cellar - probably no more than 5 vintages at a time. But I have had at least 30 different vintages in my life and I'd like to think I know it pretty well.

Some of those came from my own cellar. I bought a few post-release. But the vast majority came from other people's cellars through the years, like at the 2004 BWE event referenced above.

I don't get any satisfaction from owning bottles with the same labels and different numbers just for having them. I get a lot of satisfaction from understanding a particular wine over a long period of time and understanding different vintages.

I have a 3L 2000 Lynch Bages with BWE's name on it just waiting for the right gathering. Maybe at BWE 2025. That's what I like to collect wine for.

SF Ed

I completely get that SF Ed...the best wines are those we drink with friends after all.

What I intend on doing is buying at least two bottles of each vintage, one or more for sporadic consumption, while keeping one to complete a vertical. At least that way I'm tasting as I go, and understanding an estate, or two, in detail.

"Owning bottles with the same labels and different numbers" doesn't do anything for me at all. However being in a position to share bottles with the same labels and different numbers with a group of likeminded individuals excites me greatly.

[AKR]

Personally I think it makes more sense to assemble verticals in estates that tend to be hard to find after release. Ch. Musar might be an example of one, or Mas de Daumas Gassac. And although not Bordeaux, they are blends that might be of interest to enthusiasts.

That's a great suggestion Arv, and makes a lot of sense.

Are there any Bordeaux estates that fit that mould? i.e. hard to find after release?
There might be a few from the Right bank for sure as many estates are quite small (I'm thinking Bellevue Mondotte, l'Eglise-Clinet, Trotanoy), but I'm struggling to think of something suitable on the Left Bank. Maybe Mission Haut-Brion?

The ask would certainly be a lot easier if Burgundy!!

Generalizing, the smaller the production, the harder it will be to find later on. Especially if it has had a step change in pricing over the years, since - again generalizing - the higher cost bottles are more likely to be saved & stored well, and thus having the possibility of showing years later on the resale/auction circuit. For examples of Medocs that can be hard to find later - look at either La Tour Haut Brion (now defunct as a distinct label) or Carmes Haut Brion. Sociando Mallet from the 70's can also be surprisingly rare/costly, since it was generally not imported into the US then much. I'm sure there are plenty of others, those are just top of mind.

But above all, cellar the wines you enjoy. So before tracking down a dozen vintages of some hypothetical estate, taste older ones to see if you love the end result.

[Dionysus]

Thanks for all the input and advice thus far, it's been really helpful.

JCKBA, where possible I've tried to follow your advise: "pick a Bdx estate that you (1) currently like (2) would expect to improve with age and (3) can easily afford and to go for it"

As with all things Bordeaux, it's near impossible not to be greedy and select just one, so I compromised and decided I would select one RB and one LB.

Contenders LB: LLC, Mission HB, Smith Haut Lafitte, PL Comtesse, d'Issan

Contenders RB: Valandraud, Clinet, Hosanna, Troplong Mondot

My LB choice should be a popular choice amongst BWE'ers, Smith Haut Lafitte. Purchased by Florence & Daniel Cathaird in 1990, this perennial underachiever has been on a pretty impressive run of form since the 09 vintage. Even in "average" vintage (11, 12, 17) scoring from a wide range of critics has been pretty stellar - the 2017 was possibly one of the wines of the vintage. The last SHL I tried was the 14 and I was hugely impressed by it, so much so I bought a half case. For me it had great balance, everything was in harmony, and was what I can only describe as very "pure" or clean. It helps that I have a few difference vintages of SHL already (14, 16 & 19(EP)) so it's not too big an ask to ask to build on what I have to make a vertical. While I'm not sure if it should be factored into my choice, I really like the steps the estate has taken to reduce their environmental footprint. Now I just need to figure out whether I begin from 14 onwards, or extend back to 09. The later option will include the dreaded 13, but even that is drinkable by all accounts, and one of the better attempts made by chateau's in that year.

My RB choice might be slightly more controversial, Troplong Mondot. Its been well documented that this wine has being undergoing quite a significant transformation of late following the appointment of Aymeric de Gironde in 2017 to new ownership. Previously under the guise of the infamous Mr. Rolland, the wine was subject to significant criticism and was often consider one of the most "parkerized" wines from the region of St. Emilion. One of my first old Bordeaux tasting experiences was a bottle of 90 TM and I was absolutely blown away by it. Again classical in style, it was a very polished wine, super smooth, almost sensual. It was probably this wine that started by interest in Bordeaux wines, aged Bordeaux in particular, well that and a bottle of 96 LLC that I was lucky to share with some friends a few years back. I have purchased 3 bottles of 19 EP, but other than that, I'm starting fresh here so have a bit of catching up to do. I considered going from 2017 onwards only, but thinking about it a bit further I reckon it would be a useful exercise to begin from 2014. Whenever these are opened together, it would be really interesting, to me at least, to see the evolution of the wine between the vintages and over the recent transformation period.

Honestly I could have selected 15/20/30 different wines and would have been happy with my choice. Ultimately though I opted for these two wines because 1) I have direct tasting experience of both and they are styles that appeal to me; 2) I like the trajectory of both estates, the consistency of SHL, and TM returning to the more classic style; and hope they continue their current path, and 3) they are at price points which I consider fair.

Thanks again for your suggestions and guidance.

[Musigny 151]

I love building verticals; I enjoy the chase as much as drinking it. There is a collector gene out there, and it was passed down to me by parents and grandparents, all of whom collected.

Back to wine. I had way too much time during Covid, so kept filling gaps in my verticals. As a result, I have multiple vintages of many Right Bank wines particularly Pomerol. And the jewel of the collection is a large vertical of my beloved VCC going back to 1943. And come October, we will drink them, and then no doubt, I will start again. As I said, I love the chase almost as much as the wine.

[DavidG]

I was there, I brought the '88

Luna Pena restaurant. March 12, 2004. I brought the other bottle of '88, and was surprised to see it outperform the '82 and '86.

Conor, welcome. Building a vertical or three can be fun and educational. Pick a wine with a good track record for longevity and one that you can afford to purchase multiples of. Doesn’t have to be a case but at least 4 or 6 will allow you multiple opportunities to compare the changes over time.

Also, don’t be afraid to open a bottle because it’s the last of that vintage and will "break" your vertical. Unless you’ve got specific plans to open that bottle with specific other vintages, there is no reason not to pop a bottle you feel like drinking.

I’m sure you’ve seen enough notes here to know what many of the board favorites are and which are known for making old bones. That plus your own experience can guide you.

[Dionysus]

Thanks for the welcome David, and for the advice.

I'll probably add to my initial selection and just have some fun along the way.

[gene m.]

I agree there can be a different motive to build a collection. I didnt do it to possess them, rather I wanted to share experiencing multiple vintages of a chateau.

Nonetheless here are some I had owned and drank at one time or another. Many are decimated and have fewer than 10-12 vintages/bottles left
Noteable Domestics
Dominus: 83-87,90-97, 99, 02, 03, 04, 06 ~ 18 yrs. I bought 2-3 verticals from a defunct auction site way back in 1998-2002 that gave me multiples of some good years like 91/92, 94.
Spottswoode: 86, 90-97, 03 ~ 10 vintages
Montelena: 84, 85, 87, 90-97, 03, 05 ~ 13
Diamond Creek, 70’s, 80’s (81-87), 90-95, 04, 06, 07. Bought from an ex-employee @ DC

Noteable BDX (afterall this is BWE)
Latour: 59, 61, 66, 70, 76, 78, 81-83, 85, 86, 88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 96, 98, 00, ~ 20
Lafite: 59, 61, 62, 64, 70, 78, 81-83, 85, 86, 88, 89, 1994-99 (mags) ~18
Mouton: 61, 63, 66, 70, 75-79, 81-86, 88-90 ~18
Margaux: 61, 64, 66, 70, 76, 78, 81-83, 86, 88, 89, 90, 95, 96 ~ 15
Haut Brion, 61, 66, 70, 81-90 ~13
Lynch: 78, 86, 88-90, 94-96, 2000-04
Pichon Lalande: 76, 78, 79, 82, 85, 86, 89, 90, 95, 96, 00, 03, 05

Having a bunch of different verts has also allowed us to do horizontals of the 59, 61, 66, 70, oddball collection of 76,78,79, then the 82, 85, 86, 89, 90, 95, 96 and 98 with up to 17-21 different houses at one sitting in Sac tasting group/wine dinners. Gawd knows how many show up at the BWE gatherings. I've gone to the 89 one where there were over 30-45 different reds and at least 12-15 stickies,

Latour was my early favorite and still is. Lafite was sentimental, I kick myself for not going for more Margaux.
I have friend that collects Mouton for all the artist series labels. probably over 50 different labels and some old stuff, 45, 47, 59...
Others I know stay on lists so they dont drop their allocations (screagle, SQN, scrot, MacD, Cayuse etc...) but dropped Harlan, Bryant, Arajou, Abreu, Maya etc....

I have a few mixed Bordeaux with concentration on 78/79, 81-83, 86, 88-90, 95-98, 02-05: Pontet Canet, Pich Baron, Leoville’s, (P/B/LC), Montrose, Rauzan Segla/Gassies, Cos dE, Calon Segur and Rt bankers….

I still have a horizontal of 79’s (8 bdx), 86 (6 napa, 6 bdx) , 95 (10 different bdx) , 96, 98, 99, 05

For modern domestic stuff it’s mostly from being on winelists/futures such as Spottswoode, Diamond Creek, A-O/Debate, Aubert, Ceritas, Arnot-Roberts, Rhys, Myriad, Rivers-Marie, Maybach, Krankl, Bedrock, Ridge that are kinda from 01-07’, then 11’- current. I have dropped most mail list, but still get some allocations.

If I started now?
Probably PIchon Lalande, PIchon Baron, and Lynch, then some St Julien: Leoville Poyferre, Barton, then some St Estephe Cos/Calon/Montrose, a variety of Margaux (Lichine, Lascombe, Segla) and Pessac Leognan (Smith Haut Lafitte, Domain de Chevallier, LMHB) would be something I'd buy of recent rls, then backfill from auction when reasonable. I would also look into Pomerol and St Emilion. sadly most 1st growths and many 2nds are stratospheric as a new release and i'm 65

I probably have enough sauterne/port and cali cabs to last thru my (yet to be conceived) grandkids.....

[Antoine]

My best verticals are 1 bottle purchase (already a struggle to get 1) and I have verticals starting 2011 of both Roumier Bonnes Mares and Mugneret Gibourg Clos Vougeot. Indeed... Burgundy... and 1 bottle is already budget bursting....
Doing it in Bordeaux raises questions: en primeur, usually you have to buy a 6 pack which may cost a lot if you are after an expensive and rare wine...

[DavidG]

A number of retailers sell small quantities en primeur. Sometimes it’s easier to get one or two of a real rarity than a case. Then again, I’m no whale at any of the retailers.